A pal of mine who's as hard-core ops oriented as you can get (one of the old group I used to be around who made real life RR crews walk out saying it's too much work) just read this thread on my suggestions (he's not a member and doesn't spend much time online).

He just called and was laughing. He told me that as hard-core as he and the others around them are, he's encountered others who made them look like a "run around a circle on the living room floor with no sidings" kid.

In simpler terms, no mater how hard core you think you are about anything, someone is gonna look at you, roll their eyes and mumble, "puh-lease," before walking away.

It's all relative, he said, and he thought it was funny how few people posting here seemed to get that.

You can never have too much detail or too many trees on a layout.

 "The mentality as I see it is again if you do not subscribe to a particular modeling standard then you are just dabbling in the hobby and should never be taken seriously..aka their input doesn't matter anymore."

   I think that just perception. More experienced modelers just don't think that much about basics as they are far in their past. As we get better at anything we don't look back and that's the way it should be. No one is trying to tell anyone how they should enjoy  the hobby, they are just offering ways to improve one's skills. We should celebrate those learning more not feel threatened by them.Look where anti intellectualism and retreat to tribalism has led societies....DaveB 

Joe doesn't change my thoughts on this- a great column.

There are models that are models, and layouts that are models. Scientifically reproducing a prototype in model form down to weathering and effects can be the sole satisfaction for many. They build and/ or kitbash models of excellence.

Then look at the photograph or display method and it's way out of balance (which irks me to some degree)- bare track; plywood central; glitzy plastic structures in view etc..

It doesn't deprecate the model per se, but shows that the 'modeller' is more interested in the item than the context.

Same I guess for RR/layout operations. Just for many trains moving A-B-C then back to A as a rolling 'item' passing along landscape.

A friends layout had no room for 'operations' apart from schedule of trains to run elephant style round and round. Adequate for what it was, but only minor operations were to assemble a train by drags from staging or 0-5-0 set up and no industry or switching. This was his desire and it worked most of the time as a display of name trains and features when showing it to enthusiastic visitors.

regards

davew

It depends regarding mother may I having an implicit dispatcher. It can also be just coordinate with each other ... hey Bill! I’m gong to take the siding so you take the main, okay?

Just a thought here. I have the Ops Live 4 video for the Bear Creek and South Jackson. In one scene the crews mention that their warrant is Joint with Train xx so that to me becomes mother may I. The two crews discuss the situation and their options and decide who goes first. 

Maybe we are being way too serious about this whole thing. I love operations and operate on our club layout and two others. Each has a different method of operation and car routing. However, all are similar and all are fun because no one gets too serious. If train A runs a signal there may be good natured ribbing but in the end no one got hurt. The key is whether the club or private layout all participants are friends enjoying a common activity and having fun. 

The key to me is have fun. 

Just a thought here. I have the Ops Live 4 video for the Bear Creek and South Jackson. In one scene the crews mention that their warrant is Joint with Train xx so that to me becomes mother may I. The two crews discuss the situation and their options and decide who goes first. 

That's not "mother may I" that's joint authority under track warrants.  The authority to occupy the main track isn't the negotiation between the crews, its the track warrant with joint authority.  Its codified. 

It depends regarding mother may I having an implicit dispatcher. It can also be just coordinate with each other ...

In "mother may I" (MMI) the authority is given by somebody ("mother").  I would consider the situation where the crews just negotiate between themselves as not even MMI, that's, to us a prototype term, just "jawboning", de facto "yard limits". 

The key to me is have fun. 

​The people who like operations think its fun.  The people who don't like operations don't think its fun.  To Joe's original point, I think that trying to convince the people who don't like operations that its fun is a useless endeavor.  The better tack might be to figure out how to expose people to operations so that the 20-25% who will think operations is fun can see what goes on and make the decision for themselves.  The other 75-80% who don't care for operations will just do whatever they want to do.

[If you are old enough to remember Bennet Cerf, the title makes sense. If not, it would take too long to explain.]

After watching this conversation and studying Joe's data, I have some observations to throw in the pot.

First observation-- this matters more to model railroaders than I had realized. My initial impression was that op schemes are influenced by the layout, with the biggest requiring the most paperwork, but that is exactly backwards. People build layouts to operate in the style they prefer. To see this, look at the things some modelers have gone through to accommodate continuous running. Look at the cost of a multi-user layout, and the sacrifices in visual appeal many will make to just get trains running.

Second observation-- Joe's data shows a normal distribution, or at least would if there was something here easy to measure. Let's look at the distribution with some different terms and boundaries:

• 1st quintile:  Railfanning. These folks like to sit back with a beverage and just watch their trains run. The term "roundy-round" is unnecessarily disparaging. Current technology requires a fairly large loop design, but we will soon see automated systems with the capability to make up a train and route it to one of several destinations. (Just keep watching Michael Rose.)
• 2nd quintile: Switching. People in this category like to operate their rolling stock in a visually prototypical manner, solving the sort of problems train crews face in their day to day job. These layouts need less real estate than railfanning, but tend to be more complex per square foot. (i.e. plenty of turnouts and car spots.)
• 3rd quintile: Casual socializing. Friends sharing their hobby (and German cake), operating trains with no more goal than to get together and have a good time. Operational issues are just part of the conversation. Any layout big enough to support two throttles will do.
• 4th quintile: Formal socializing. Many clubs fit this description. There is a regular meeting time, and running trains will be part of the evening, but operational roles are loosely defined. (Some folks are just there to run their own rolling stock.) There are a lot of other things to do, and they may all happen at once. Layouts tend to be large, and are often in communal space.
• 5th quintile: Prototypically correct operations. Folks are there to take their place in a team and get the job done. Since the prototype is managed from the top down, so are the sessions. Someone has to take the lead, generating orders for the crews, and that person often owns the layout. (Also prototypical.)  Demands a lot of real estate and maintenance, but scenery can be simple.

I'm calling these quintiles even though they don't match Joe's percentages without some massage-- for instance I'm guessing about half of the clubs I've stuck into group 4 will use a dispatcher and some sort of paperwork, and Joe's mother-may-I option includes my groups 2, 3 and half of 4.

Third observation-- There is no direct relationship between manner of operations and "realism", at least if you define realism as a plausible imitation of the real thing. When I see a train, it is usually passing me in the country (sometimes I am passing it-- I do most of my railfanning from interstate highways.) I have no way to know what kind of paperwork the engineer is following. Looping can only be considered unrealistic because you see the same train repeatedly (although most coal trains in Montana look alike to me). But when the G&AM is finished, you will be able to sit in Michael Rose's train room for days before seeing a train for the second time. My other opportunity to watch trains is usually at a yard, like the pedestrian bridge in Laramie or the Holiday Inn Express in El Paso. Cars are being moved from track to track very slowly, but I have no way of knowing why.

Fourth observation-- The survey is really about how you participate in railroading. Are you a lone wolf, party animal, or team player? Any article on ops as usually defined only applies to teams, and is really interesting to the team leaders. That's why ops stuff doesn't sell. The target audience is one fifth of one fifth of all railroaders. A good recipe for German cake would be more popular.

pqe

I used to tell customers who asked how the railroad worked compared to other forms of transportation that we were just like the postal service except our letters and packages are a whole lot bigger. In actuality you can break railroading down to three different kinds of service, four if you include passenger operation. General Freight, Priority Freight and.Solid Bulk Commodity Freight. 

Representing Priority Freights and Bulk Commodity Freights could be as simple as just running the trains from staging to staging and coping with train meets with other trains using whatever type of traffic control the layout owner chooses. General Freight on the other hand requires the most work and for folks who want to know more about Operations May prefer these types of trains over the others.

A general Freight train will need to set off blocks of cars and pick up blocks of cars. You could have a couple of these trains, one in each direction responsible for bringing cars and forwarding cars from and to places beyond the layout represented by staging.

Once cars are set off in the serving yard (like your local post office), they are sorted or classified and then delivered to the customer (like your mailman) using locals or switchers.

You can keep these things simple and light by just car type or you can make it more detailed using specialized cars or particular roadnames that would be prototypical. Either way, Operations doesn’t have to feel like work. It can be really rewarding and also a way to exercise our brains in coming up with a solution to switch a particular industry or arrange a meet with another train. You might find you enjoy one aspect of Operations more than others. For example, my favorite part is switching and lining up cars in the yard. I find it mentally stimulating and relaxing. Others may enjoy industry work or keeping a Priority Freight or passenger train on schedule. There’s plenty of opportunities for everyone.

Tim

The "roundy-roundy" idea becomes boring VERY quickly.  I believe the key to getting people interested in more "prototypical" model railroad operations is for us folks that enjoy protypical operations, and do it well, to bring a buddy to your next operating session.  Once you do that, it really does "de-mystify" model railroad operations.

An example:  In November 2016, I took my 11 year old grandson to his first operating session.  Yes, he was already interested in trains, 'cuz I gave him a train set for Christmas a few years earlier.  And yes, he had been hanging around with me at train club quite often on Saturdays, and was also a member of the local Youth in Model Railroading (YMR) group, and yes, the guys at train club kind of took a shine to him, so he he had been "primed".

Anyway, I told him he would "melt his brains" at this operating session.  I explained to him how it was all a giant puzzle with moving parts, and you simply had to put the parts together.  So, with several others from our club, off we we went on a rainy Saturday. 

At the end of the day driving home, he turns to me and says: "Poppie, my brains didn't melt.  I thought that was a lot of fun! When can we do it again?"

BOOM!!

We did a 3 day ops session up in Oklahoma in March 2017 for his spring break, which he is eager to do again this year.  We did three layouts, one small layout using car cards, and two very large layouts using switch lists.

My point is that if you like operating, bring along a buddy, a grandson/granddaughter or other relative, an unsure club member, or some other acquaintence, and get their feet wet.  Pretty soon, they will be swimming in the deep end!

CRZ,

COO TWMRC

Maybe the question needs to be asked, instead of "how do you run trains", "what would you like to learn about running trains (switching, dispatching, car movement planning, etc.)?"

Layout owners, regardless of size, take on the roll of hundreds maybe thousands of people. They take on the roll of consignees, clerks, MOW, mechanical, dispatchers, operations managers and on and on. I can understand that adding another layer for the sake of adding a layer does not seem like much fun. I also think that if people understood why the railroad did it that way it would let other pieces fall into place.

I think there is plenty of insight available from people on this forum that could share some of the "why" without divulging any proprietary secrets. I know as a railroader there are many things that model railroaders do that we would either never have to deal with or would never do. There are things that to a railroader make perfect sense but to a casual observer looks like we are just moving cars around for not apparent reason.

There also seems to be a hesitation that people have over things they do not understand. I never worked with TT & TO but I would like to learn some day, but with any skill it has to be properly taught, learned, and practiced. I think if we as ops people, both real and experienced modelers, worked to understand what people want we could give them a prototypical option for operations without too much pain. As the newly initiated delve into operations they can learn more and incorporate more into their plan as they see fit, or not.

I will object to the phrase roundy round is boring quickly. For some folks that like to watch trains run through scenery it is not. It might be boring to the guys that want to do nothing other than switch cars into sidings. Just as sorting cars in a yard is boring to some. I happen to like all aspects, watching them run, switching cars into sidings, classifying cars in a yard, and running a train from one destination to another.

The ability to do these things is something that needs to be considered when planing for track. I have been looking at getting operations set up on our club layout but the track plan was not designed for it nor was it designed to have much in the way of staging or trains longer than 12 cars. The layout is in a 24 x 50 something room and is nice to look at but did not have a cohesive plan.

When I get caught up on other projects I will begin to try and figure some more operations for this layout. It is a goal but it is an after the fact goal as nothing but a bunch of components were planned, mountains, yard, engine terminal, loops of track, reversing loops, these are needed for trains that derail when backing otherwise backing is just fine as an option.

 "I have been looking at getting operations set up on our club layout but the track plan was not designed for it "

  Do you have a track plan of the club layout? It would make an interesting thread to discuss possible operating schemes suitable prototype or freelanced railroads to suit the existing track plan.....DaveB 

DaveB..here is a link to the web site..just look for " plan " on the left and it will take you there.

http://www.etmrc.org/
 

I admit I do not like car cards.  Especially having to sort them and carry them around with my throttle.  I find them to be distracting.  I much prefer switch lists, and only when I or a guest needs them.  When operating, I want to focus more on the 'play' factor, such as operating the locomotive, sounding the bell and/or horn at the appropriate times, and being able enjoy listening to the sound system as I start moving a cut of cars.  I'm serious about placing the correct cars at the correct spot, and picking up what cars I need to pick up.  I know where to put what cars on my layout, so the switchlists are only needed for a guest.  My son doesn't even need them, he knows where the DSDX bunkerless reefers go, or the UTRX bunkerless reefers go, etc....

In short, I want to operate like I was railfanning the operation (if that makes sense).  I deal with enough paperwork at work, so I don't need it in my hobby.

But that's for me.  Yes I'm part of that 55%.  But that doesn't mean others are wrong.  It's a hobby.  Have fun.

John

You want to be the engineer. You just need somebody that likes all that paperwork to be your conductor. :-) 

Randy

Do you have a track plan of the club layout? It would make an interesting thread to discuss possible operating schemes suitable prototype or freelanced railroads to suit the existing track plan.....DaveB 

Dave and for others following the discussion here is a fairly accurate depiction of the clubs track plan there are a few differences. Starting from the left price yard has been extended and connects to the outer main in the upper left corner, cp1. The trolley layout has taken over the armstrong industrial park there is one siding there. East onion breath is being reworked and is all narrow gauge but connects with the main layout for some reason. Dexter yard is in the design phase of a rework to add a wye and track for more industry and a larger yard.

Here is a link to a blog entry regarding operations in the past. It seems our efforts in getting ready were prempted by major construction projects. The blog will continue once I get caught up on other things.

  Hi Rob,   That looks like there's plenty of track to work with :>)    I guess you'd have to decide what kind of operations you'd want to feature then come up with a route that would make sense.Some of the alternate trackage could then be designated interchange with other railroads. Is there a logical point to point route from Price yard to Dexter that could be the focus of operations with interchange and industrial switching along the way? Having lots of track doesn't mean it all has to be included in operations, you could just ignore some if that makes the operations more realistic or easier.....DaveB

I have watched many videos of operating sessions. I enjoy watching the trains run but I don't see a lot of happy operators. They all look like they're at work. This is a hobby. A hobby I enjoy and spend a lot of time and money enjoying. I particularly like seeing an engine I have built or at least finish going through her paces in an environment that I have designed, a world created to my idel of beauty. When I do simple switching moves it really doesn't add to this joy. If I wanted to work I would get a job and a least get paid for my toil.

Bob Harris

I don't think you can judge "fun" by how someone acts in a video. They're supposed to look serious. Real operating sessions involve a lot of laughing, cussing, joke telling, and everything else real railroaders do _when they are not talking on the radio._ Trust me. Try it. You might like it.

Scott Chatfield
Formerly of Southern Railway, now I just play a railroader on television.... (actually, I have!)

...since a kid!

My first experience with operations occurred when I was 12, I had just joined the Australian Model Railway Association, Victorian Branch and was attending my first major exhibition as an Exhibitor. At the exhibition was a 60' long 3 station British layout built by Stewart Westerman, Jim Scot and Mal Baker the layout was single track terminal to terminal with a crossing loop on the middle station. It was operated by Signalmen at each station using bell codes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_block_code) and semaphore signals. The middle section also had a comprehensive Welsh narrow gauge line. Being a newby I was given as a sacrifice to Jim Scot who inducted me into the world of ops. After a quick rundown of the bell codes and signals I was put in charge of running the NG.

Lunchtime came around and Jim said he would be gone for 1/2 hour and to take over the signal box. Ouch! I had never done this b4 and I had 2 experienced operators sending me trains. After a tentative start I was hooked on ops and have never looked back. This form of operation is very British and different to what American layouts are run.

The AMRA Vic Branch layout was run with Signalmen at each station, Bell codes and signals. the drivers sat in an elevated drivers stand from where they could view the complete layout. They had a repeater panel which showed signal indications and turnout positions. In a 4 hour ops session about 40 trains would be run. Signalman would do the local switching and it was just by "that siding looks like it needs a boxcar" and choose one. We operated about 4 times a month with each session being a different prototype like US 1960's East Coast, BR 1980's, Victorian Railways Broad Gauge, DB Era III, etc.

An interesting and totally different layout was a private garden layout using O scale clock work locomotives. Again it used bell codes and signals. The owner had figured out exactly how many turns of a key would take each train from station to station and a list was supplied, When a train at your station an auto stop between the tracks stopped the clock work mechanism, and you wound the key the correct number of times, when cleared your pulled the "Go" knob an the train rushed off to the next station. Mo power required! Just a strong wrist!

Jim Scots home layout was Great Western (UK) and it was a double track loop with a "Fiddle Yard" on one side and a very small station with 3 sidings on the other side. This small layout needed 6 (!) people to operate it, the service was intense!

Since moving to Tulsa I have been lucky enough to be involved with several big layouts (Tulsa is a great location to live if you love operation!), ranging from N scale SG through to SN3 RGS. Operations are with car cards or switchlists some with dispatcher and some without. Mostly I operate on Steve Davis' KCS 3rd Sub (http://kcs3.webs.com/) in Coweta. This big layout is has a dispatcher and uses switchlists. Look it up on YouTube, there are lots of videos of its operation.

Overall I think I can say their isn't an operation style I have tried from Total Chaos to Absolutely by the book! None of these styles have been "bad" just some better than others. Just try it you may find you like it!

Background.  I've had my HO railroad up and running in in a smaller version of it's current configuration since 1990.  Expanded it in 2000.  Started doing operating sessions in 2004.  Was dispatching using train orders. 

I had train registers, but I didn't know a darn thing about clearances, and my train orders were about as wrong as they could be.  Train sheet, whats that?

Ripped out all of my extension in 2009 and dug out the crawl.  Railroad grew in size significantly.  There are now 10 towns between east and west staging, a branch line, a large classification yard (still in progress), and a smaller yard which used to be my main yard. 

From 2003 thru 2014, I also participated with a large three rail O scale modular group, set up at local train shows, and did 3-4 days of running around in loops.  It was pretty therapeutic, with the exception of setting up and tearing down the beast.  

About four years ago, I got involved with a local operations group, and I've learned a LOT about TT&TO.  Learned a lot about track warrants too.  I actually prefer track warrants, but it is not appropriate for the era I want to model, so train orders it is.

A year ago, I started doing TT&TO for newbys.  During my last session, out of 10 guys, 6 are O scalers (two railers, and three railers, and yes Virginia, you can scale mode in three rail), who are loopers with one exception, one of the crew operates his layout using car cards, and has a LOT of switching.  

The first session, I introduced the schedule (only my first class passenger runs on a schedule), clearance, and train orders.  So, there is no worrying about 1st, 2nd, and 3rd class trains.  If an extra looks like it is going to encounter a scheduled train, I gave them a heads up.   Further, with this group, I double up on crews.  They can work through between them where to take a siding to stay out of the way of the 1st class trains. 

I hit hard the concept of OS so that the dispatcher KNOWS where you are.  The new crews are VERY conscientious about OSing, and using the train register.  They understand why we do it.  They ask a lot of questions, and everything gets answered to the best of my ability (I have not committed CCOR to memory, yet).  I only have a rudimentary understanding of the rules myself, so I try to have two of my more experienced operators / dispatcher from the local oiperations group I participate in join the session also.  

During my sessions, the snacks are out, the beer fridge is fully stocked, and everybody is ready to commit character assassination should somebody have a head on with the varnish, and kill a bunch of people.  Good natured character assassination is actually one of the fun points of the new group, we have a LOT of good natured ribbing during these sessions.  I've known most of the guys for years, and I used to three rail with five of them. 

The sessions seem to be laid back.  Guys DO sit in the hole for an hour on occasion.  The only guy on suicide watch is me when I dispatch, since I'm still learning how to do it, and make doubly darn sure I don't screw up.  I wouldn't hear the end of it from this group if I screw up.  

As I've stated in another thread, while I have some scenery completed, there is a LOT more to do, so a lot of my railroad is running over the Foam Board Pacific. Nobody seems to mind, and we are all learning together.

GNNPNUT 

I don't think it was what Ops style is best.

I can only go by my own experience, but the first thing that happened when I attended my first Ops Session, was a tour of the basement-filling layout for those of us who were new. That was followed by a Crew Briefing, where the owner set out the basics of how the railroad was run, to everyone. He also pointed out new additions, and changes since the last session. 

As a Newbie, I was assigned a through freight, and an experienced operator to help me. Basically, he made sure I didn't go too fast, pointed out where I should stop in the sidings, answered questions, and had me radio the Dispatcher. This gave me a look at the entire layout, and enough knowledge to properly operate a train.

My second train was a local. My Experienced Operator went on to run his own train, but made it exceptionally clear that he, or anyone else was available when I had questions. The layout used switch lists, and was signaled. On my first run through the layout, it was explained which turnouts the Dispatcher had control of, and which were locally operated. Basically, once off the Main, the local Engineer was responsible for operating turnouts. 

I loved switching cars, and working the mental puzzles of swapping empties for loads. I found out after the session that while I got all the cars to the correct destinations, I hadn't realized that there was an order to set cars on the sidings. The owner made sure I knew it wasn't a big deal, and I knew better next time.

Because I had support from the owner, his wife (who was the Dispatcher) and all the other Operators, I felt comfortable in being responsible for my own train. I didn't get everything right, but that was ok. Mistakes were pointed out as learning experiences, not failures.

The only pressure I felt, was the pressure I put on myself, to do the job right. I returned to operate at every opportunity. The last few times I was able to make an Operating Session, I took the Assistant Yard Master position, in training to become a recognized Yard Master for the layout. If you like switching cars, the yard is the place to be. There's a lot of pressure there. You have to break down and build trains as quickly and efficiently as possible. If your yard gets behind, everyone knows it. Even so, someone is always there to help out, and get things flowing again. Only those who have the experience and knowledge, become Yard Masters. It's an earned position of trust.

The owners have moved, and are in the process of building a new layout. It may be a couple of years before they hold Ops Sessions again, but I look forward to going to the new layout, and Operating.

The reason for this is simple. I have never felt that I was getting in over my head. I was nervous as hell, the first time I was solely responsible for my own train, but knew that no matter what happened, I could get help fixing it. As my skills and knowledge progressed, there was always another job that was more involved, that I could try, and ALWAYS someone to oversee and teach that position until I was comfortable.

Yes, the first time the Yard Master walks away, and leaves you in charge of the yard is scary as hell. Then you break down your first inbound train, and build your first outbound, in time for the crew to leave on time. I honestly have no idea how long he was gone, probably not more than a few minutes, but I had a second outbound ready, and had an inbound lined up for the correct track, by the time he returned. I knew that the Yard Master for the other yard was just across the aisle, if I needed him.

I would say that the best way to introduce someone to Operations no matter what type, (car/card, TT&TO, Switch lists or Mother May I) is to:

• Have experienced people there to help out
• Pair them with an experienced Operator for the first train at least, so they can learn the basics
• Ask if they feel comfortable running a train alone, don't assume
• Make sure they know who they can go to with questions
• Let them know, no matter how experienced they may be, that they have people to support them
• Point out errors as learning experiences for next time
• Let them progress at their own pace (even if that means they are paired with someone the entire session)
• Let them discover what they really enjoy doing, then give them opportunities to do it

Most of all, make the Ops Session a stress-free and friendly environment. People will come back if they had fun, no matter how simple or involved the Ops Session is.

I know nothing about real railroads except they pay their employees to do things a certain way and said employees have no choice. And that it takes them forever to do anything and the reason it takes them so long is because they don't have a choice. Railroads need all these procedures and paperwork because in the end it saves them time and money.

We, on the other hand, have a choice.

I'm part of the 55% of those who want "simple ops, just somewhat realistic but not too much".

I honestly find it quite silly when I see someone simulating the time it takes the brakeman to get off the engine, walk to the switch, throw it, then hop back on the caboose or then rinse and repeat at the next switch. Not to mention taking time to couple the cars, simulate an air test, etc. Me? I'm manually switching miles of turnouts in advance, and boom I go get that car, pull it back, throw the switch and put it in the other side and done. Years ago my trains were flying on the track. Over the years I've been a bit more careful and appreciative of "somewhat realistic" switching speeds, and I know even like this they are way off scale. But doing air tests or filling paper forms to move my train... sorry that's just silly in my book. On yours however you do whatever you want.

The other reason I don't even try to do "realistic" ops: I have no clue what goes where! I've never switched on a real railroad and I never will. I barely know which kind of car serves what industry. 

On one of my youtube videos, a viewer commented I inverted the car X for industry Y and the car Y for industry X. The reality is that I did the video that way because one tank car was orange and I thought it was better looking next to some building, and other one next to the other one. I have no idea what these cars are supposed to represent, nor did I have any idea how to even finding out.

The local club has 2 cement plants so one day I decided to do a video switching these. The hardest part was trying to get someone to explain how they are switched. Of the people I asked, either they had no more idea than I did, or those who I thought knew had little interest in explaining stuff to a newbie or were just replying in some kind of undecipherable jargon and in the end I learned absolutely nothing.

Railroads have rules. E.g. can't put this kind of car next to that one. Specific ways to switch specific industries. I know nothing of these rules nor where to find them in a way that I can understand. Now that's something MRH could help with some intro-level articles.

Would MRH be interested in doing an article that explains when cars are pulled from an industry, how long they stay at an industry, etc...  What or who determines this?

On my layout, the not-everyday-switched industries have their loads or empties pulled the following day after the car was spotted on the siding.  Regardless if there was another car in the train that was going to be put in the pulled car's place.

I know there are official publications covering this, but I would rather have something that simplifies it for model railroad operations.  Short words and short sentences.  Concise.

John

Cars are spotted when they arrive or when the company orders them in.

Cars are pulled after they are loaded and waybilled or unloaded released and to the railroad and a train or engine gets there to pull them. 

Once a railroad owned car is spotted at industry, they have 48 hours to load it or 24 hours to unload the car or the railroad can charge them extra demurrage charges (the charges and times vary by era and car and track ownership.)  They can take as long as they want, but they might get additional charges.  Private cars on private track are not subject to demurrage.  Describing all the demurrage rules over the years could take a multiple page article and would read like a legal document (storage charges, free days, weekends, credit days, etc, etc).

Private cars on private tracks can be there months or years.  Or they can be there a matter of hours.  Empty railroad cars cars can sit for months to be ordered into an industry, or they can be ordered into an industry when they are made empty at the previous industry.

That's in a nutshell.  It depends.

I simplify it by not really worrying about it.

....Is something I've been writing on and off of for a while for publication in the journal of the OpSIG, The Dispatchers office. However, between life and the fact that I felt the article was too "basic" for my fellow "serious" operators, I never finished it. As one if the "too serious" crowd, I still remember when I didnt know all the "ins and outs", and only had three operations books to draw upon in those dark, pre-interwebs days, and I'm happy to coach and "enlighten" those who share my interest. John, maybe you'd be happy to proofread what I have? You and I share a common interest in Urban Railroading. Of course, now I have to find where it is hiding on my hard drive......

The really simple answer is the car is pulled when the local runs.  If its tri-weekly service (north one day and south the next) and the industry breaks south, then it doesn't matter when the car is released its only going to be pulled when the local runs south, which is 3 days a week.  If its released or billed on any of the other 4 days of the week, it sits until a switcher gets there. 

Industries are switched once a day in the vast majority of cases.  If a car is billed or released after the industry is worked, it sits until the next day.

On a branch where the local runs once a week, the released or billed cars get pulled once a week.  Local runs on Thursday?  You bill a car on Tuesday, it sits until Thursday.  Bill a car late Thursday afternoon, it sits there a week until the local comes back.

If you model the 6 days the local doesn't run, then you just sit there and stare at a stationary car (maybe the guys who like to wait for the foreman walk out and unlock the gate would like this).  Most people only model the time when the local runs, so if you are only modeling when the local runs, its not as big a deal.

Most industries only have an empty spotted within a day or two of it being loaded, most industries load a car within a day or two of being spotted, most industries only spot a load if they can load it in a day or two and most industries unload a car in a day or two.

I have seen algorithms that try and estimate orders and releases and put some sort of randomizing factor into it.  From the times I've played with it, just manually changing the status of roughly one third, one half or two thirds the bills depending on the volume you want accomplishes movements that are operationally indistinguishable from what the algorithm does.

This is a great commentary from Mr Fugate...the comments in this thread speak volumes. Great article.

I grew up like most of you with a 4x8 sheet of plywood and a roundy round. 

My thoughts after several years of reading articles in print or online, watching TV (PBS rail stuff), watching hours of YouTube prototype and model videos...I want simple and fun/interesting.

I have been thinking of taking pictures of my cars (using them as car cards..as they get to a town/yard...the inbound car box..pick all of them up....shuffle like a deck of cards...split the deck...one stack outbound....other stack gets switched local. Where they get switched is up to the operator.)

Now I know this idea goes against most basic ideas...but right now Im thinking against the roundy round...but want fun/cartoon operations without the mental drag of real ideas.

Its like when you were a kid and set out a hopper at the lumber yard with no way to load/unload it...and a gondola ended up at the oil refinery..or that tank car ended up under the coal tipple to be loaded..

Its like when you were a kid and set out a hopper at the lumber yard with no way to load/unload it...and a gondola ended up at the oil refinery..or that tank car ended up under the coal tipple to be loaded..

Actually both of those things can be prototypical.  Lumber yards often got coal.  They would unload it onto the ground onto a conveyor belt.  Gondolas go to oil refinerys with loads of pipe and metal products.  The refineries in both Houston and Salt Lake city got empty hopper cars and shipped out loads of petroleum coke, black carbon residue that built up on the inside of the refracting towers.  Can't help the tank cars.  8-)

Can't help the tank cars.  8-)

Tank cars for kerosene or oil (could be died blue, green, red, etc.) to make some of that "clean" coal.

I really hated "clean" coal. It made the smell of the soft coal even worse and, no mater how careful we were loading the furnace, it seamed that everything in the furnace room ended up coated in oily sticky coal dust. Coal dust was bad, but the gooey sticky residue was really hard to clean up.