MRH's fastest growing area right now is mobile - primarily on iPads and iPhones.

It stands to reason MRH would grow even faster if we, like many other magazines, had a presence on the Apple Newsstand.

Problem is, Apple does not allow free magazines on their Newsstand.

So the idea is to charge 99 cents per issue and use the money to fund promoting the model railroading hobby with the general public. MRH would report out how the funds are being used so you know the money is going where it should be going - to grow the hobby.

Apple may frown on creating a non-newsstand app for free magazines (Apple has to approve all apps and they could deny approving such an app) . Plus people won't be looking in the app store for magazines - they'll be looking on the newsstand, since that's where magazines are - and that's where all of MRH's competition will be.

But Apple's business model is driven, in no small part, by the acquiescence of vendors to that very model.  Have a free app, post it prominently over your website, and sit back.  I think, long run, you will be glad you did.

I would just keep walking unless you could figure out a way to refund the money. Although, a nice way to use the money would be maybe to buy train sets for children at Christmas. I'd spend $12 a year on that.

Lots of newspapers and magazines have their own custom apps in the App Store, although that's a little disappointing that you can't distribute a free magazine on newstand, which would keep all sorts of publications in the same spot.

Joe has said in the past that MRH will be "forever free" or he won't be doing it.  I don't think its a good idea to charge for it anywhere, but I don't run the business.  I think an app would be your best bet to tap that market, but I think Apple's policy is dumb, but then I think a lot of things with Apple's business model are dumb.  Still, they have done well for themselves and my wife spends at least an hour a day on her iPad, so they are doing something right.  

So if there is a $2.99 charge  for the users of the Apple Newstand, would the magazine still be free for the rest of us?  What's the lowest fee you could charge?

I'm thinking it might be a valid marketing tool to get exposure to untapped apple newstand users, and then direct them to the free download site for subsequent issues.

If it's too much bother for some to find the free site, by all means the $2.99 fee should be ok.  And ya'll even send emails to me (at least) with links for download, so I'm not sure how much less painful you can make it.

You guys have your business model too and should stick to it.  Besides Apple just won something like $1.5 BILLION in court today so why should MRH have to charge?

Steve

The Apple greedy crowd grows. I wonder how many of them have an iPhone or use an iPhone to run their railroad?

Just wondering, don't get all upset at my question.

Bernd

...I'm one of the "greedy Apple" crowd. I do not use any "i" products. What amazes me is only 26 out of 212 people have an opinion at this point.

Having recently made the leap to owning an android phone, discovering the world of text messaging, (which is really hard on the eyes but otherwise quite handy) and having found some great FREE apps to use, I am just discovering the "smart" in the "SMART phone".

Since my wife just had her work phone "upgraded" by her employer to the iphone I have been listening to her complain what a POS it is compared to her previous phone, a Blackberry, particularly in regards to it taking and retaining a charge...

I predict the soon to be released Surface will probably be the first "tablet" in my household...

DON'T compromise your ideals over Apple's money grubbing business model.

Just my opinion, hey you asked!  [grin]

Apple is as big as it is due more to its brand image than its products (60/40 IMHO). On that note, I would go the app route simply because of the size of the i market. That's capitalism. However, don't compromise your business model or professional/hobbyist values to suit Apple's nickel and dime mentality. The whole MRH philosophy runs counter to Cupertino's true (not the polished one - pun intended) business platform. Once up and running, promote the heck out of it online and noisily let Apple know what you think about their "no freebee" policy. And thank you for producing this incredible hobby publication in this economic and business environment.

"Are you viewing it on an Apple product?"

I voted for an app and AM usinfpg an iPad.

I was one of the Applephobics until I got my iPad. Becoming a convert!

Dear MRHers,

Respectfully suggest doing a quick bit of research of the death a few years ago of the Model Trains Weathered forum...

Disturbingly similar situation, a clear example of the results when charging is implemented...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

If that is the way Apple wants to play, then let them I wonder how much of that money would come back to MRH and how much stays with Apple. .Go Android. There are many more Android devices out there then Apple.

Maybe another pole on weather you use Apple or Android.

With the HTML5 version coming soon, is this conversation a moot point?

sounding like the situation back when Apple was getting into the computer market.

You could choose between and Apple product or an IBM product. Talk about history repeating itself.

It'll be interesting to see the out come. Think I'm going to change my vote.

Bernd

P.S. There done. I voted Apple is greedy.

OK, I had to upgrade my equipment to color but now the app is working. Although it does take several floppies to store a copy of the magazine.

Referring to the iPod photo above... 

Apple has not achieved total lock-in yet, as long as there are alternative methods of getting product onto Apple products, they should be used (and Apple should be ignored). 

Once there isn't.... I hope that Apple will die the horrifically painful death it would deserve for doing such a thing. 

Was not Steve Jobs the snake in the tree?

I would ignore/boycott the Apple channel. Build a simple app to download your PDF.

But then I refuse to use apple products.  But then I work in tech and like a more open architecture.

ken adams

Walnut Creek

No question PDFs work okay on mobile devices, but they're not terribly easy to read on smartphone screens. MRH Gen 2 hopes to fix that.

Where the Apple Newsstand comes into play is making it easy for new readers to find us. There's over 300 million iPhones on the planet, and and approaching 100 million iPads - so there will soon be a half-a-billion people with iPhones or iPads. We estimate in that group may be 100,000 or more people who have some level of interest in model trains.

The first place they will look for model railroading material is in the Apple Newsstand, then second in the App store. Why should MRH be a no-show?

Yes, there may be more Android users than iOS users, but it's a 60/40 split - does any smart business ignore 40% of their market? If iOS was 1% or 2%, then maybe, but you don't ignore 40%.

I have my problems with using an Itunes closed system. I am an Android user but I think Apple is where the hobby needs to be to reach even more of a young audience. One of the things I see is the many older folks in the hobby, I'm one of them.  After 30 years in marketing my vote would be to do what ever it takes to open the Apple market for MRH. 
Jim Ford South Bend Central

"I accidentally installed the deer whistles on my car backwards. Now everywhere I go, I'm chased by a herd of deer. Steven Wright" 

You're not ignoring them, just making MRH available to them for free instead of for a fee.  I don't know if it costs anything to get into the Apple Newsstand, but would it be practical to have an item there with a description which points toward the free app?

Dammit! I just lost a long reply to this post.

Joe, please consider the app.

Charging for publications seems out of sorts with Apple - they allow free apps, free books, and free music. It makes me think that the newsstand is an old school safety cushion for print publishers who are too nervous about the future; apps are the way to go.

Get numbers from apple on the number of searches for model railroad in newsstand (vs app store) for set time periods.  Don't listen to opinion; see what the math says.

Consider teaming up with vendors to fund and populate a cross platform development (Dallas modelworks has some great tools that would be awesome as part of an app). Custom stuff like a freight yard, each car being a different edition of MRH (click to a different car to download a specific edition) or something like an immediate picture upload from a mobile device to your blog. Hit on topically related and cool stuff like that.

If I can assist in any way, let me know. I'd prefer to see MRH continue leading the hobby press in content, technology, and approach, than stepping back to meet their antiquated model. After all, if Apple had done that, there never would have been an iPhone.

Can you still make MRH available for free elsewhere, while you charge for it on the Apple Newstand?

If so, I vote for adding it to the Newstand for $0.99. The charge would be for the increased ease of use for those who want the Newstand approach. I agree that having a presence on the Apple Newstand could only be could increase MRH's and the hobbies exposure.

Really who does MRH intend to get from Apple by using their news stand?  Do you really see "the Kid" with the Apple in his hand wanting to read something on model trains?  I don't see them as the demographic that would subscribe to MRH.  Those in that demographic who would be interested in MRH will find it soon enough through other avenues.

As for old guys, the ones that haven't found MRH yet and ok with getting their monthly train reading via the computer, (remember the whole nice but I can't take it into the bathroom thing when MRH 1st started?) then they too will find it through other avenues. 

Steve

Apple doesn't want you charging more for a newsstand issue than you charge elsewhere - at least they prefer that. To build a newsstand app isn't free either ... we will keep looking into options.

So based on what you have said 

Apple doesn't want you charging more for a newsstand issue than you charge elsewhere - at least they prefer that. To build a newsstand app isn't free either ... we will keep looking into options.

I take it your not just contemplating charging for access on apple devices but on all devices.

So really the question is do we want to pay for MRH. Something I note that says on the cover "PRICE Forever Free".

While I have no hard and fast numbers to base anything on.  I would be willing to bet that if you started charging for this, even $0.99 that you would lose at least 50% of you readers.  I think this is not a comment on the quality of what you produce (I think right now it as at least tied for the best general Model Railroad mag in the business). I think it is that A) folks do not like to pay for online content in general B) Folks dont want to bother paying for online content (note this is just the fact that it is another thing you have to keep track of) and C) folks are not going to like that this would go from "Forever Free" to no longer free.

I leave it to you to work out the results of what would happen to your advertising if you lost large numbers of readers.

And frankly while i am not truly the "younger generation" anymore being in my early 40's I am of the generation that has had access to the internet pretty much our entire adult lives (after college).  And have used computers all the way back to 5th grade in school. And i don't see how being on apples store will help much (if any) folks know how to find what they are looking for on the net.

On top of this I know what my nieces and nephews are doing and the fact that you are not on Apples store would not slow them down from finding you one bit if they were interested in trains in any manor.  They may use apple I phones and at least one of them is ALL Apple, that does not mean that they only can find what is hand fed to them by apple. The next generation is very savy about finding things online, and being free would attract them more then being on the store. The next generation of apple users i know  all have a bit of a "rebel" attitude. They like things like your approach to the business model replacing the way traditional magazines do business.  So I really do not think you will gain much (if anything) from being on apples store and you would be gambling what you have built.

But it is your magazine so it is your choice.

 -Doug M

Our basic business model has been if it has ads, it's free - if it doesn't have ads or if it involves physical media, then it's not free.

So one way to spin this would be to make an Apple Newsstand version of the magazine have no ads, but it's not free. Everywhere else, it has ads, so it's free.

Would you pay for an Apple Newsstand version that has no ads?

No I wouldn't. Since all the ads are hobby related (please keep it that way), the ads add to my enjoyment of the ezine.

My opinion would differ if you ran non hobby related ads.

When I download MRH or buy the odd MR or N Scale mag, the ads are the first thing I look at.  Honestly, for me I can't see myself ever using the Apple Newsstand.  I'll be going Android when I can unload my crackberry.

Yet Another reason to go Open Source.

I am constantly amazed at what Apple (& Microsoft for that matter) get people to pay for.

MRH on Apple works today. This is not needed today for Apple users to read MRH on an IPad.

Android ? LOL 

Joe

Forever Free means Forever, and Apple's "evil and greedy" policy shouldn't force you to change your business model for the sake of "new readers" 

Do what an "evil and greedy" corporation would do in this case, make another publication, with the mostly the same  content, give it a new name, fill it with links to MRH, and sell it on ITunes for .99 cents. 

Case closed, send me a check for "idea fees" please. 

Signed Evil and Greedy Gears

Hi Joe

I vote to keep things like they are.  Just from the info you have mentioned in the magazine, your readership and membership has been growing monthly and from looking at the sponsoring advertiser page, it has at least doubled since I joined 2 years ago.  That says that your approach is working to me.  I agree with Doug Meyer & Gears above - I think you risk what you have gained to chase after some possible maybes.   I found MRH easily just by doing a general Google search for "model railroads".  I didn't need Apple to find you. 

I have just upgraded my cell phones and did NOT get a smart phone because I have internet here at home and have it at work.  That is plenty of access.  All i need my phone to do is make and receive calls.  I don't need to read MRH while driving or "in the bathroom".  Maybe that brands me as an old foggy (just turned 58), and that is ok.

As for ads, I read each one.  I first go through and read the content, then go through the magazine again and look at each ad.  I especially read the sections on what new products are being introduced.  So I would not be in favor of a non-ad version, especially if I had to pay for it.

Anyway, just my .02 worth.

Who said it is not worth 99 cents? Frankly with what the other mags are charging and comparing the content I think it is "worth" more then 99 cents. I don't think it is worth as much as the printed mags but that is simply because it is not printed and paper, printing and shipping do have costs.  But I am sure it is worth more then 99 cents.

The issue is as I noted getting folks to actually pay for it. Not that this is two different things. And for the reasons I stated I do not think that folks are going to be all that happy to pay for it. So if it goes pay for play then it will lose readership. The issue being how many? I personally think a lot,

As for paying for an add free version. I would rather keep the adds and keep it free as long as that model works. (assuming it does).

If you do go with a pay (no add) version assuming you keep the adds/free version I guess I am lost as to the point.  You would not be increasing the readership as far as you advertisers are concerned as they would not be in those extra copies so I do not see what this does for helping gain advertisers. But I guess that is not the point.

So with out knowing what outcome you are looking for, and or why you are looking for it I am not sure we can have a lot of useful input.

-Doug M

Frankly, we don't want to charge for MRH. Any Apple store presence would be a way in, but once you found us, you could get the free version and never need the Apple store again. So it's simply a way to get found.

But Apple would frown on this, because then the Apple store version would cost more than elsewhere, and they have stated in their policies that they don't want the Apple store version to be more pricey.

I'm mainly conducting the poll to see if my assumptions are valid - and so far you all have not let me down - your responses are right in line what what I expected.

But it's bad to just assume - so I ask to make sure my assumptions are valid - or to find out if I've overlooked some consideration.

We appreciate that you'd pay money for MRH, but our response remains the same as always - take that money you would otherwise pay us and go deliberately spend it with an advertiser and let them know you're doing that because they are an MRH advertiser. THAT's how you can pay us for all our effort bringing you MRH completely free.

As far as I'm concerned an Apple is a fruit you pick off a tree in the back yard or buy at the grocery store.

Any Apple electronic product isn't worth the time as they charge 10 times what their worth and then charge to use them.

I will never buy or use an apple product so if MRH puts the Magazine on the Apple news stand and charge for it I really don't care it won't cost me a penny.

Dan

Joe, everyone I know who has an iPad, also has an iPhone, so your estimated readership may be high.

Joe, you're a publisher...one who makes Publications!  You make Publications... Publications...

Here's what you want.  I want this too, that would make MRH #1 in the world...in only five years?  GOOD SHOW!

Where the Apple Newsstand comes into play is making it easy for new readers to find us. There's over 300 million iPhones on the planet, and and approaching 100 million iPads - so there will soon be a half-a-billion people with iPhones or iPads. We estimate in that group may be 100,000 or more people who have some level of interest in model trains.

Here's how you see it playing out:

The first place this group will look for model railroading material is in the Apple Newsstand, then second in the App store. Why should MRH be a no-show?

And here's the Hurdle:

But Apple would frown on this, because then the Apple store version would cost more than elsewhere, and they have stated in their policies that they don't want the Apple store version to be more pricey.

So here's the solution: you make a NEW PUBLICATION! 

The title of this Publication would be "The MRH Circular"

The Publication would be a one page MRH Advertisement, perhaps two pages, a cover and an inside page, a 'What's Inside This Month's Issue!," Advertisement.  The cover of this publication would contain a picture of the cover of this month's MRH as if it's a magazine cover appearing on the cover of another magazine.  Inside on page two there'd be a table of contents about this months issue.  On page 3, a teaser containing a couple GREAT pictures and topics from the past with bold comic-book captions, like the operating crane from this month, something to advertise the great archives of MRH.  It's a baited Hook!

Take this Publication and put it on the Apple Newstand for $0.99.  It's not the monthly Issue of MRH, and it's not available on the MRH website.  It very neatly exposes your new readership to the content you want them to see, and they get the content you want them to get - TWO publications for the price of one!!  Apple Can't Say Pooh about what you put IN your publication, can they??!

I, the bumbling apple newstand reader, would bump into your Circular on Apple newstand. I pay $0.99 because I'm interested in what I see on the cover and read in the description.  Once I pay the price, I get the "publication."  The publication, the Circular, in this case, is an Advertisement - and it tells me all about MRH!  consumer EXPOSED!

The first time I visit your magazine, I'll be paying $0.99 for the experience because I bought the Circular, and I'll be raving about the killer deal I got - until I see that I can get it for free - and then I'll just download it like everybody else.  All the same, I got exposed to your magazine, and THAT is what you're after; MRH exposure on the Apple Newstand!

You would turn history here.  This would be the first time customers would be buying the ads, the sales circular, and then getting the sales for free...imagine a grocery store like that!!

This is not a bad idea.

If you take this farther you could make the front part of MRH say the first minor article and maybe the commentary as part of the said flyer.

-Doug M

That could be the avenue to look at.  Maybe instead of ads that would drive readers to MRH how about a sister or premium magazine. The comparison would like Model Railroader has Great Model Railroads once a year but monthly instated  Premium maybe harder to do since it would even more content you would have to produce.  Heck you can even recycle old MRH articles since they would be new to those folks. Maybe start off like MRH did of quarterly and see how it goes from there. 

It would have to have something of value to drive folks to MRH otherwise you could get "if this is what I get for 99 cents what will I get for free?"     The only ads would be MRH - and maybe MTV. 

Steve

very original!  

If all we put on Apple was a "front" for MRH, Apple won't approve it. Whatever goes on the Apple store would need to be its own publication, with content that makes it stand on its own.

Doing what Kalmbach does, this could be a "best of MRH" reprint around a given topic, for example. Or completely new content, also what Kalmbach does. To be consistent with our business model, this special content would be an eBook with no ads and a cover price. These special eBooks would, however, have one house ad for MRH.

Sounds like this might work ... But it would need real content (read: 48+ pages), not a 99 cent 6-page front for MRH.

"iPhone and iPad
Sun, 2012-08-26 04:02 — Will_Annand
Joe, everyone I know who has an iPad, also has an iPhone, so your estimated readership may be high."

Guess you don't "know" me, Will. VERY BIG GRIN

I have a DUMB phone - don't want one smarter than I am. No text, no Internet access. But I do a lot of my work and all my eMail on my iPad.

I have MRH on my iPad, using the MAC downloader.

I think Joe's idea of selling something on the Apple Newstand to bring MRH to the public's attention is the best idea yet.

How about a book to go with the "Basic Electronics for Model Railroaders" video we discussed, Joe?

I think the idea of special e-books, videos (such as Mike C's), and special issues like GMR

Joe

As I read Steve's last post I was thinking "The Best of MRH", but you beat me to it.  This does sound like a great idea if you are wanting to expose MRH to new readers.  If Apples objects to recycling old articles, you have a number of video clips on YouTube, etc. Can you somehow include these in you Apple Newstand edition, with a link to the MRH website and your "Forever Free" tagline?

Why not use the $500 intro to model railroad contest results as the publication to put on the Apple Newsstand? You could use the top 5 layout plans and any photos for examples. You also have many photos you can use from, "Yes, it is a model railroad." Seems this would make it easy.

Den

Carstens and Kalmbach both publish books of popular article series or themes.  What about doing the same - I dare say my scratch building articles would be long enough to be an e-book, as would several of the other series.  I can also see something like "Unconventional Wisdom, a collection of Reverse Running columns."   I have no doubt you could come up with several more.

If you have to have content, and this content can not be what is in MRH, and you have to charge for it to keep Apple happy. 

I say forget about Apple. I still do not believe that for a specialty mag such as MRH it is going to do you all that much good. And what it is going to do is draw resources away from MRH, because everything you do for MRH2 is not time spent on MRH. So your company becomes a classic case of neither fish nor fowl nor good red herring.  Do you really want to maintain 2 mags?

And as noted about Apple not being stupid. If that means that you HAVE to have new content not just reprints from MRH then you will have content that can only be obtained by buying MRH2. This means that you will have to have a way of providing that content to those that are not on apple so you will need a way to sell it on your page or someplace that at least does not require an apple device.  So that is more complications and more expense on top of keeping two mags going. 

On top of that your back to fighting a perception. The perception will be that this original content would have been available in MRH if you had not created MRH2 and thus some folks will perceive this to mean they are being forced to pay for content that otherwise they would have had to pay for, so you can be on Apple and folks that are "to dumb" or "to lazy" to find you can get get access to you.

Note I am NOT arguing if this is a right or a wrong perception. But I PROMISE you that some folks will think this. So in effect you will be doing more work to create MRH2, then doing more work to make MRH to available to non Apple users for a fee, and ending up ticking of at least part of your current reader base. A base that I have to believe effects you advertisement revenue.  And all for a possible increase in readership of MRH. So you will in effect have to get some new readers just to compensate for those that will be annoyed and stop reading. And while this may be a small number I would not counting on it being tiny.  Perception is a funny thing and on the net it is even more so.

With little effort someone could spin this whole thread into a very nasty take. And while I assume Joe is doing this for the stated reasons and in "good faith" not everyone will look at it that way.

This is kind of like the NMRA when it decides to raise it dues. More often then not the increase is close to 0 in the beginning as they lose about enough members so that the new smaller number at the higher dues generates about the same amount of money as the older larger group did at the lower cost. This is the kind of thing that I think will happen (at least to begin with) if you go with an MRH2 that you charge for. For right or wrong reason some folks will perceive this as an issue and they will stop reading.  The question is will you get enough boost from exposure on Apple to make up for this? Who knows. It is impossible to say unless you try it, but once you try it you can not go back as you will have done the deed so to speak. 

And I just can not see it making a lot of difference one way or the other. For me it seams a lot of work that frankly I do not think will bring much gain and will in fact annoy at least some of your current readers, and thus is not likely to be worth it. But as noted it is not my magazine.

-Doug M.

Joe,

It might be interesting to know how your readers first found out about MRH.  How many people came here on their own, and how many found out through word of mouth.  I know that I have been spreading the gospel for quite some time, and there is at least one person here (and potential author) who found out about it through me.  In turn, I was turned on to MRH from some posts in another forum, back when it was a quarterly magazine and it was easy to read and then forget (before I found the forum).

My point is that, if people are finding out about MRH via word of mouth, it doesn't really matter if it is available in the Newsstand, or the app store, or only on the MRH website.  It sounds to me like your concern is in getting the word out to potential new readers, so it would be useful to know how your earlier new readers first found the magazine, and then encourage that channel as much as possible.

Joe,

I'm a member of the geezer crowd.  I do not own any kind Apple device nor any mobile device, for that matter, except a cheap cell phone for emergencies.  I have no intention of ever owning one.  I guess I'm in the minority.  I have access to more information via my desk-top computer and Internet connection than I can assimilate now.  One of the main attractions about MRH is that it is " forever free".

If you think having a presence on the Apple Newsstand, whatever that is, would be an advantage, then develop something that can be put on it and let the people who want to access it, pay for it.  Don't make me pay for MRH to subsidized the Apple-user crowd.

I do have some concern about what will happen to the quality of MRH if you go the route of having to support another form of MRH for the Apple people, especially if the content of the Apple version has to be new and not reprints of material that has already appeared in MRH.

My vote is to keep MRH as is and to determine the best way to spread the word about accessing MRH directly.

Bob