I've dropped the request for evening use only.   Clint has released a new version and we have a bunch more registered editors/contributors.  We're still working with NMRA on handing this to NMRA.  Their IT dept, like most IT depts, are very uncomfortable with things that don't come from Microsoft or other known vendors.

If we can't get agreement from NMRA to support this as we envision it, we'll look for other hosting options.

I don't mind/care if Kalmbach runs their own index tied to a means to sell article reprints.  But after -how- Kalmbach took the older index down with the (bogus!) claim it couldn't be fixed, I don't want to depend on them as the sole source for this data.  And a business model for reprints in a proprietary format with DRM sure has not worked for other organizations (e.g. music)...

dave

But after -how- Kalmbach took the older index down with the (bogus!) claim it couldn't be fixed, I don't want to depend on them as the sole source for this data.

Thanks for the update Dave.

You dont have to subsriibe to MRR to be a member. You do have to subsrcibe to receive some "subscriber only" articles and extras. Will this fall into that category? I don't know.

You can choose to not receive any newsletter that offends you. Receiving newsletters is not a pre-requisite of membership.

Chris

by a company like Kalmbach or even Carstens rather than having something hosted by the NMRA or independently is that the continued availability of the index is entirely in the hands of the whims of whoever is managing the company in question.  Kalmbach is going to put the index back up.  For how long?  When will they suddenly decide again that it isn't worth their trouble?  I would much rather have an index available at a non-profit site where the bean counters are not always looking for ways to cut costs or add profit.  In addition the NMRA won't have a vested interest in publications by any specific company.  In my view having Kalmbach host the index is no different than having a politician voting on legislation that is designed to benefit the company that he has all of his savings invested in.

 Anything put up by anyone anywhere on the net is dependent on *someone* continuing to pay the bills to keep it available.

Whether that is paid for by NMRA membership fees that a lot of you guys moan and groan about not wanting to pay since it isn't worth the cost to you, or whether it is paid for by a business you guys also moan and groan about not wanting to support by buying their magazines is relatively unimportant.

 In either case, the golden rule applies.

 The golden rule? "He who pays the gold gets to make the rules". People who spend hours whining about how a "free" service offered by someone else isn't good enough for them, and how they wants more freebies, still paid for by someone else, will tend to be ignored.

 If you guys don't want to use the new index Kalmbach is building, then don't.

 Make your own index. I honestly don't care if you guys want to go through the effort of building a second (or third or fourth) index, as long as there is at least one index available that will allow me to find *old* articles of interest. New articles of interest in magazines and eZines I have myself, I keep track of myself.

 But if Joe and co wants to make it easier to find articles in old issues of MRH, they should feel free to offer (or point people towards it, if it already exists) 

a search function on this web site that allows you to e.g. do

full text searches

on all old issues of MRH.

 I hear a lot of talk about how eZines are better than paper magazines. So why not offer a service that is not offered by the the paper magazine, then, instead of crying about not being treated as the equal of the paper magazine? 

Grin,
Stein

MR's latest newsletter had the following about Kalmbach restarting the index to hobby magazines:

"We are pleased to announce that our online Trains.com Magazine Index will return in January 2011. The rebuilt index, with an updated interface, improved performance, and better search functionality, will allow you to identify information printed in more than two dozen magazines covering model railroading and prototype railroading from 2010 all the way back to 1933. Once you've found an article, you can also purchase back issues and other relevant Kalmbach Publishing Co. products from the index pages.

For print magazines not produced by Kalmbach Publishing Co., we're also developing an index tool that will allow the staffs of those print magazines to easily update their information as issues are published in 2011 and beyond. We hope to have this tool ready later in 2011."

Well, we will see if RMC, NG&SL Gazette, etc. also join this project.
John

For print magazines not produced by Kalmbach Publishing Co., we're also developing an index tool that will allow the staffs of those print magazines to easily update their information as issues are published in 2011 and beyond. We hope to have this tool ready later in 2011."

Well, we will see if RMC, NG&SL Gazette, etc. also join this project.
John

The beauty of an "open source" index, developed, populated with data and maintained by volunteers, is that it doesn't matter if RMC or NG&SL Gazette join the project.  The group maintains the database for their own benefit and that of the hobby in general, so all publications and resources would be included if at all possible.

It's not about greed, power or market share, there's no "host company" to determine who will and will not be included, no reason to farm email addresses or require a sign in to use it and IMO, less chance of it becoming a subscription or "pay for view" service.

I don't see this as a competition between indexes, but as a logical move towards preserving and sustaining this resource, for everyone, forever, for free. [grin]

It is an unfortunate fact of life that a revenue stream is required for virtually any endeavor. Free isn't really free. Somehow development costs must be recouped and the electric bill must be paid at the very least. Wikipedia is experiencing this pain right now. They are pleading for donations.

For a business (ex. RMC) to populate and maintain a product (index) that is controlled by a competing business (ex. MR) seems very risky to all parties. It is analogous to being a common renter. At any time the landlord can raise the rent or impose new rules leaving the renter with no choice but to comply or leave. The critical shift needed is the renter must somehow provide the landlord with enough additional value beyond the rent check that the landlord is reluctant to do anything that might cause the renter to leave.

In my eyes an ideal solution would be a 3rd party business that creates an extremely robust index of all available hobby related material and then charges an acceptable, minimal fee for use. The fee (and advertising) creates the revenue stream resulting in a sustainable business model, the 3rd party aspect nullifies the issue of competing businesses working together, and the arrangement creates mutual interdependence between the content producers and the index provider thus keeping everyone playing fair.

The key for the index provider would be business 101 basic value/cost. Does the 3rd party index provide greater value at same or less cost than each provider can produce individually? Second application of the same test - Does the 3rd party index service provide sufficient value such that customers (and advertisers) will pay the requested fee? Essentially the same question(s) any potential business model must be tested against.

The advertiser supported model that Joe is using is not new but has proven to work. It is a steeper hill to climb than the advertiser+fee model but can be done. MRH is but one proof. The index I envision being able to pass the sustainable business test question will likely need to be very, very robust (great value) thus requiring substantial investment and operating cost. As a result it would require the greater revenue stream of fee+advertiser.

The MR announcement will be interesting to watch play out.

A lot of the best quality software is being produced by volunteers using open source approaches.  The components Clint used in the rrmagindex system (a database and a lightweight web server) are both free and open source.  The contributions of volunteers to add/update/edit the data in the rrmagindex database is similarly free.  Although it's hard to measure "100%", I suspect the current index has at least 'the great majority' of US-published model RR magazine data (and we're always looking for volunteers to add what's missing.)

Web hosting does require some investment (as does podcast hosting or e-zines.)  For the current beta, that cost is being covered by my employer, who doesn't mind if I'm doing volunteer work on the side as long as it doesn't interfere with my day job and is clearly out of the range of the company's business.  Moving the index to NMRA servers (the eventual hope/plan) would use NMRA membership dues and related revenues to pay for the bandwidth.  I support the initiative that Tony Koester and others are doing within NMRA to digitize NMRA assets, and I think the rrmagindex dovetails nicely into emphasizing NMRA's on-line presence as a major value proposition for member dues.

The Kalmbach idea of using the index to facilitate selling back issues is something that we discussed within the rrmagindex core team back in August.  But that's something that NMRA can pursue with magazine publishers, etc.   i think they could use the same system to index the NMRA photo collection including the ability to order photo reprints.

dave

Contrary to the post title your statements generally support the consideration offered.

Volunteers = labor revenue stream (this is the relatively easy one, reference Wikipedia situation and open source as you mention)
Your employer = gift revenue stream (great when it happens but can't be readily duplicated)
NMRA dues = fee revenue stream (my point exactly)