Great responses, guys!

But I have a question. If you've been in the hobby for a while, you remember the days of the V&O story and how modeling real railroad operations (even if freelancing) is cooler than just doing a mish-mash of "train stuff" here and there. And there was also Allen McClelland's "good enough" philosophy and the introduction of staging as a "necessary" into layout design.

That whole "revelation" and discussion seemed to energize the hobby for at least two decades (the 80's and 90's).

What do you see out there like that today to energize the hobby and give it a sense of direction? Or is the hobby drifting? What is there to give a strong sense of purpose today to newcomers into the hobby?

I think the biggest improvement to the hobby has been dcc.  When I first started in the hobby, command control was available, but there were only two or three systems and 0 interchangeability at very high prices.  I remember people asking "When is the NMRA going to do a standard that will bring interchageability between systems and bring prices down?"  The dcc standards were published and it has taken the hobby by storm.  The old command control systems were for the rich or clubs only, I just bought an NCE Powercab for a small one locomotive switching layout for @ $150.00.  If I want to run a second locomotive, I don't need to do a bunch of fancy wiring or isolate sections of track to park one and run the other one.

The biggest con to me is the discontinuance of kits by so many manufacturers.  A related isue to me is Horizon now issuing r-t-r versions of the old blue blox kits at prices similar to much better quality and better detailed products form othe rmanufacturers.  The r-t-r from Athearn has better paint and graphics, but are made from the same old dies.  It wouldn't be so bad if the prices were significantly lower than the better more modern products, but they are not much lower than the good stuff.  I just wish that I didn't need to turn an r-t-r model into a kit in order to kitbash it into something else.

As far as where the hobby is going, I hope all of the paper magazine publishers get on the e-mag band wagon.  I can store a room full of magazines on my computer, and if I need to free up hard drive space, I can put them on a memory stick.  If I need plans for a scratch building project that were included in an article, I can print it out. I have a huge collection of magazines that I want to scan into my computer, but haven't had the time to do it.  I am leaning toward just recycling the paper instead.  I have pretty much decided that any magazine (not just model railroad mags, but all mags) that are not available digitally in three years time will be dropped.  It has gotten to the point with me that the problems of paper vastly outweigh any possible content that could be found in a magazine. 

Great responses, guys!

But I have a question. If you've been in the hobby for a while, you remember the days of the V&O story and how modeling real railroad operations (even if freelancing) is cooler than just doing a mish-mash of "train stuff" here and there. And there was also Allen McClelland's "good enough" philosophy and the introduction of staging as a "necessary" into layout design.

That whole "revelation" and discussion seemed to energize the hobby for at least two decades (the 80's and 90's).

What do you see out there like that today to energize the hobby and give it a sense of direction? Or is the hobby drifting? What is there to give a strong sense of purpose today to newcomers into the hobby?

Joe Fugate

 I adhere to everything you spoke about. I model a specific era, circa 1995 and real train line. I use staging and the "good enough" philosophy. No mish mash on my layout. Except for that 1940's steam engine excursion train now and then 

I think that in design, operation and model railroading in general,  "Lance Mindheim" is the way to go for the future. Simple, up to date design(s) that is not eating up an entire family budget which is also a "plus" to newcomers in the hobby. And not only for newcomers.

If I may, if you have a look on page 37 of the latest "more layout in less space". Wat do you see? Exactly, a layout with only 4 switches. Without going into detail, you might be running trains in no time. Put up some mock ups for the industries, read some of Lance's scenari on how to operate the layout and you are on your way. And wat is more important to newcomers in model railraoding? Running trains ASAP afther they get home with their first set. Even with designs as mentionned, the newcomers wouldn't feel "lost" since they are running (working) a layout reflecting the real thing from day one, leaving the "chainsaw" layouts far behind.

Now, I am not saying that we all should end up with a layout looking like the one on page 37. Although from wat I see around on the forums, more and more (new) layouts tend to be of Lance's fashion, including my own ,lol.  

Wat I'd like to see is that we more and more would be thinking " less is more" when it comes to designing a layout. Narrowing down the focus, resulting in having much more time, much more resources to complete (finnish) a layout.

Looking back: the dates may be off so look at everything as approximately at the stated times or when I became aware of these things and starting 30 years earlier than Joe asked for

50 years back:1960- This is all "HO" Scale as I remember it best and "S"-"O"- &-"N" scale were looked at as more along the toy line TO ME as I never build many structures for any of them other than a few Plastic snap together kits available at the times I had any contact with these other scales. Please don't look at this as putting down the other scales it's just that "HO" was my scale of choice and still is.

RTR HO scale track in fact was unreliable in operation and having brass rails didn't help. There was little or  no flex track at that time. With the pre-cut track all the ties were some kind of Masonite or hard plastic and when you tried to put a spike through it the ties tended to break and split. The rails were code 100 + or - 15% all came in 9 inch long pieces both curved and straight and when you needed something shorter or longer you had to break out the razor saw if your father would let you use it and at age 10 this tended to be a problem.

45 years Back: 1965

Around this time Atlas Train sets improved in both track and power supplies. You could now get engines both steam and diesel with a variety of road names rather then all being SP, Penn, UP, & Santa Fe. Power-packs were a better quality and allowed you to run more than one train at a time.  Also there were a number of other manufacturers building larger duel control Power packs with multiple throttles with more than 1 hookup for accessories like turnout power and lighting all in one big Power station

Model railroad Magazines started printing more expandable beginner track plans and also how to help those Beginner 4X8 track plans expand into room size pikes. During 1965-1970 there were more articles on scenery and a number of books on building scenery with the newest techniques. Around 1966 I found the first really good article on scratch building Pine and Fir Trees in both Model Railroader and Railroad Model Craftsman Magazines. The detailed Scenery Age had arrived for me, this was around 1966 even though the first scenery for Model Railroads books were printed around 1958.

In and before 1968 the actual home owner type railroads that I saw and visited didn't have much more than bottle brush trees with just green paint on them and Norwegian Lichen glued to weed twigs also sprayed green if not used without the twigs. Saw dust stained a number browns and tans for ground cover was the standard as well as ground up or chips of plaster colored for rocks and rubble. Almost all water was in the forms of ponds and were made of indentations cut into the plywood base with a sheet of tinted glass layer over this indentation. Larger lakes and rivers were varnish coated plywood with the river and lake bottoms painted with darker blues and blacks and then coated with varnish of clear lacquers.

35 years back;

Brass engines imports became more popular and many many larger engines in plastic and cast metals came on the scene at a more reasonable price and much better details. Scenery products became more readily available and foam rubber ground foliage became available in more hobby shops.

1970 -1990

Pulse power and digital Power packs replaced the old analog power packs giving more realistic starting and stopping of trains with the coast ability and free flowing motor and gearing. Digital and radio controlling engines with transistor hand Held controllers were being build by modelers and many different types of power controllers started to compete with the older DC block control but not any one style or interchangeability from one type to another made it to any type standard. The NMRA was just making new standards for something called DCC.

I had to put the hobby away for 10 years from 1994-2004 as I relocated a number of times and didn't have the time or space for railroading.

10 plus years away from the hobby. In 2004 I reentered the hobby and there were many changes for the better and some not so much better as I preferred building models more than running the trains.  The hobby was just getting a hold on reinventing itself and many of the old Model manufacturing companies had disappeared and new companies were building Craftsman type models but offering them already built. There were newer companies as well as the older train manufacturing companies offering new DCC equipped engines with lots of Road names and variations of engines and cars that were not available 10 to 20 years earlier.

2005-2010

The new Age of Model Railroading "S" &"Sn3", "O"& On2 -On3" has really been on the rise. "N" Scale was 10 times bigger in population than 20 years earlier but all scales are still was dwarfed by "HO" Scale and HOn3 and HOn2-1/2" Narrow gauge was just being reinvented with 5 new narrow gauge companies on the rise so it is just behind "N" scale as many people are grabbing all Narrow Gauge trains up as fast as they are available

The old 4X8 standard size beginner railroads seamed like a thing of the past but not quite and shelf railroading with 6 inch to 24 inch shelves taking the place of the old run your RR from stand and watch your train run in circles to the walk along with wireless controlled railroads as it moved around the room taking over.

Cab control took a whole new meaning because DCC was replacing DC and you no longer needed to control your trains by flipping toggle switches along the trains route but you actually could control each engine with one and the same controller all at the same time with much of the reverse loop now controlled by transistor units and turnouts had become much more reliable and functioned more like the prototype.

Scenery has become more of a model and the realism of grass, bushes, trees and the ground they set on looked more like the real thing then ever before even on beginners railroads. With the new products available on the market now even totally new rookies to the hobby can assemble a Museum quality railroad with much less effort than ever before and in much less time.

I have watched and listened to many old timers complain that now days you don't have to be a craftsman to build a railroad and these newb are not real model railroaders. Not True!!

I tend to see everything in Model railroading now as more of an even playing field. For those that just don't have the Modeling skills to super detail a structure or an engine they can go out and buy these super detailed engines Cars and buildings.

For the train lovers out there that don't have the tools and equipment to build the main base table structures or the train shelving units, then there are people and companies that will design and build the base construction and wiring for you and leave the final details to the owner. In fact you can even buy complete Railroad Kits that come with everything needed for a small railroad and everything is put together with pre cut foam with step by step wiring to be made as the old style DC or set up as DCC you just need to buy the DCC as a separate Item.

20 to 50 years ago no one would have considered buying a complete railroad KIT with city structures,Trees, bridges, rivers and mountains with all the ground cover and ballast included in one kit that could be assembled and running in a little more than a week and all for under $600.00.

2010 and beyond

Now anybody can be a model railroader with very little training and even if many are Not Craftsmen and don't have the skills to build the ultimate 30X60 mega model railroad they can still enjoy the hobby on a smaller scale.

Back when I started model railroading maybe 1 in 10000 built a railroad larger then the 4X8 standard beginner railroad. Today I would say maybe 1 in 500 will build their railroad to fill a bed room around the wall 12X15 foot shelf model railroad rather then the 4X8. The big difference now is the hobby is now more laymen friendly and it seams to me all scales are on the rise again.

I'm starting to find more and more NEW Model Railroad Hobby shops pop up and some if not all the surviving Railroad Hobby shops back to carrying much more of a variety of Model Railroad, Models, equipment, tools and track as well as the old skill of Hand laid track appears to be on the rise.

The skilled Craftsmen are still out there leading the way for the Newbs by way of the internet now. There are a lot of old and new Model Railroad Hobbyist on the Internet leading the way for all the Newbs and these new guys and gals are really catching on fast which keeps me believing my grand kids will be able to run trains with their grand kids in 30 plus or so years. Who really knows what's to come but with the help of people like Joe Fugate and friends the sky is the limit unless trains learn to fly then I don't see a limit.

The invention of DCC I believe will bring the hobby to strive for even better and better model railroading and may be the best thing to happen to Model Railroading since DC first took over the old AC Transformer controlers.

Dan

Okay, granted, DCC and better locos/rolling stock are a significant hobby improvement of the last 20 years.

But what about how newbies see the hobby today? Is it better or worse than it was 20 years ago? Is the bar higher than it used to be to get into the hobby? What does the hobby need to make it more attractive to newbies today, if anything?

Back when I started with HO I could get a good diesel locomotive for under $20.00. Today it costs at least $120.00. How many kids have thta much money these days? BTW, I wasn't kid but it was over 30 years ago and not many kids had $20.00 then either. What they did have is parents who were able to cough up the money and were willing to.

Irv

But what about how newbies see the hobby today?

Joe, your original post limited the responses to 20+ year vets so I could read but not comment. I take your latest entry to solicit input from the very newbies you are inquiring about. That's me! 100% pedigreed newbie. I can't relate to the hobby as it was 20 years ago but I can relate the differences between my perceptions of model railroading before I got involved and the realities I have discovered over the past year.

1. Layouts aren't necessarily on tables. Shelves work too! Not knowing this may have precluded me from being interested if I didn't have a lot of space. My mind defaulted to 4'x8' a year ago. I know better now.

2. Computers and networks are fully integrated. I was elated to learn this. The possibilities this opens made everything so much more exciting. IT centric young people may be drawn to railroading for this one reason if they know of it. I didn't until after I chose to be involved in the hobby.

3. Not every model railroader is a little kid with a Christmas present or a grumpy old retired man. I know in talking to friends this stereotype is alive and well. There is a very diverse collection of people right here on MRH. The stereotype needs to be laid to rest somehow because neither label is attractive.

4. Considering all of the capabilities, detail, and realism model trains are not as expensive as I would think they might be. $49 locomotives and $19 decoders are available. A lot of people after hearing about the current capabilities remark that it must be expensive. Only if you let it be I respond. Sound being the exception - outrageous pricing for what is essentially old technology. Hallmark cards make sounds for $2.95 for crying out loud.

5. Scenery is so realistic now. I could never have imagined if I hadn't seen it. Artistic people would be drawn to the hobby if they were aware of what is possible today. I think most people still imagine the fake looking little plastic house sitting awkwardly beside the tracks. Some of y'all's work would pass for the real thing.

6. Prototypical operations. I would never have guessed how far the hobby has come in mimicking real railroad operation. Sure, there were the legends who practiced this 50 years ago but now proto ops are available to everyone without great pain. It moves the hobby from playing with toy trains to real world simulation. I wonder how many in the outside world realize just how real model trains operate today.

If I were to mention a few negatives they would be:

1. Sectional track used to be good enough before I learned of flex track, soldered joiners, and L girders. Now the track plan takes on far more importance because you can't change willy-nilly. Chainsaw layouts are not an attractive option for those that don't appreciate the stepped learning process and inherent inefficiency of knowledge gained versus waste/cost/time. Not saying chainsaws are bad, just that they are not for everybody. Even though I have read a considerable number of publications there is still a void on a formal process to designing a track plan. Examples abound, basic concepts are well documented, and forums offer considerable critiquing. But I have yet to see a formal process that guides one from A to Z using a logical decision flow. Not everyone can afford a Byron masterpiece.

2. Constant reference to scale (not necessarily on MRH). Why should this even matter? G, O, HO, N, Z pick one. Are we not all smart enough to know they are just ratios? For a beginner it artificially sets the stage for trying to determine what size is the best which in the end becomes an absurd question. There is no best. It is just how big do you want your train to be. I believe the discussions and references to scale add unnecessary confusion for the newbie. State the ratios and let it be at that.

I hope somewhere in these newbie comments you find the opportunities you seek for improving the hobby.

I think that there are four major changes over my time in the hobbey.  First I would have to agree with most of the posts that DCC has been the biggest change in the hobby since I became active in the late 60's.  The second big change I have seen (for the better) is the improvement in scenery materials.  As I recall as a teen, the basic material used for trees, bushes, shrubs, etc was lichen.  The other primary material was dyed sawdust for ground cover. Now there are many choices for material. We have come a long way since then.  The 3rd is the advent of the double deck layout.  This creative thinking has allowed more operation in the same space.  I don't know if it is always the best idea,  some times less is more.  The fourth is the improved detail in locomotives and rolling stock.  It is a far cry from the old AHM, Mantua, Athearn, and others of the late 60's.  In my opinion that is what has driven the hobby for the last decade or so.

Where are we going thats a tough guess.  As for DCC is supect there will be the continued miniturazition of the electronic components along with improvemnts in sound (speakers).  For scenery I believe that we will see continued refinment of materials. Layout construction I believe that we will see more use of background sound to add the illusion of life on the layout.  For rolling stock I don't know.  Things are pretty good where they are now, maybe some refinment. 

The biggest change in modeling will be driven by the internet.  MRH is on the cutting edge of this change.  The paper magazines are  most likely going to be a thing of the past.  The cost of printing will become prohibitive and the economics just won't work. This is already underway, just look at the number of magazines that have gone under since the mid 90's The number of Hobby Shops will most likey deminish as more and more sales are done on line.  The Hobby Shops that move that way first will be the ones most likely to survive.  Lastly the internet opens up our ability to research a specific railroad, geographic area, time period etc.  This will allow many more modelers to focus on specifics and create layouts that inspire them.  Where this will lead is anyones guess.  The creativeness of the modelers will determine how this is used.

Don

Joe Said:

What do you see out there like that today to energize the hobby and give it a sense of direction? Or is the hobby drifting? What is there to give a strong sense of purpose today to newcomers into the hobby?

I know this is a bit against the grain, but with the rise of reasonably priced RTR locos and rolling stock modelers actually have a fighting chance to finish a reasonably sized layout without having to be locked in their basement 40 hours a week.  It means that someone like myself (34 years old with young kids) can participate in the hobby before I retire or send my kids off to college. 

This does two things in my mind:  First it allows people to participate that never could before (I am one of those guys).  Secondly, it challenges us as hobbyists to figure out what in the heck to do with our model railroads now that the end point of building a layout is not a limit that approaches infinity (sorry for the Calculus analogy!). 

This, paired with DCC, has given rise to model railroad operation.  This hobby has moved from a model-building hobby to a role playing hobby.  I think people who yearn for the "scratchbuild everything" era are those that would consider themselves modelers.  I would put myself in the role players camp. 

I don't demean the other side of the hobby at all (in fact it's alive and well in Craftsman Kits) but I think the people who will energize the hobby are those who harness the gameplay aspect that is now en vogue and take it to a new level of immersion.  What that is I can't say (I'd be off working on it instead of typing away on a message board) but the person who can put their finger on it will meet with great success!

~rb