although they were offered since my father looked upon that as something that you didn't learn in school. He taught me to use tools, measure, cut, and work with wood and metal. 

I find this thread interesting, although I don't get equating the loss of the "blue box kit" (and I use the term "kit" loosely) with some indication of lack of craftsmanship in the hobby. I mean, it hardly takes a great deal of skill to put together a blue box "kit," so there's none of the challenge you find with say, a resin freight car kit. 

I think the main thing people are upset about is they are harkening back to the days when blue box kits were $4. 

I don't have a single "blue box" kit - although I do have a few of the Branchline Yardmaster boxcars which act as placefillers until I can get the detailed resin or scratchbuilt cars completed. Then the YM kits will go on the table at the swapmeet for $10 each. Funny, the guys who buy them never complain about the "loss" of the blue box "kit." 

Marty,

 My father did take some of those high school shop classes (my granddad managed a lumber mill and built his own house, but I'm not sure how much of that he passed onto his youngest). In fact, my dad's senior year shop teacher ended up being my 7th grade drafting teacher 20-odd years and about 100 miles distance later.

Dad is waiting for retirement so he can set up his own woodworking shop - he's probably figuring to make up for what he never taught me before. We'll see.

I never had shop class in high school because in back in the period 1962-1966 it wasn't part of the academic diploma requirements in NYC high schools. So whatever woodworking skills I learned as a kid were from my father. And they were never really learning experiences as my father was convinced that all that could be expected of me was that I would cut off my fingers. But some of that was richly desrved because I could never drive a nail into wood without bending it. As forget when it came to power tools.

I have learned a bit since then but I still don't like working with wood. I much prefer Woodland Scenic's foam plastic since that kind doesn't give off odors or present much debris.

Geting back to the topic of this thread which deals with te question of buying or building your layout. I think the question is really about how much one chooses to do themselves. Most of us realize that no matter what one has to build their own benchwork but most of are content to buy our own locomotives, cars and structures. Why? Because it's easier and quicker than building everything frm scratch. But even if we buy the locomotives, cars, structures 99% of us also use flex track to lay rails for the trains to run on. So what? Is it only worthwhile creating everything from scratch like model railroader of the 1920s and 1930s?

For that each of us would have to be machinists, metal craftsmen and masters of all sorts of other disciplines and skills which are mostly done by machine tools these days. And given the fact that these items do not have large runs these days, the prices are going to be high for lots of reasons including the vaue of US currency as opposed to where these items are made.

No tonly do I think that that making it yourself doesn't make sense these days, but that the price of doing it yourself has priced itself out of the market for most people. And I suspect that the future of our hobby lies in the ability to create videos of layouts since that involves visual skills most of us don't have and aren't interested in.

So lets enjoy our hobby as we can today, Who knows what our great granchildren will be doing at this point. Trainz and Railroad Tycoon may be the future much as we may not consider it a real hobby.

Irv

Going to a School for Young Ladies as I did, neither did I.  We were advised that we could ask for subject that were not readily available and I asked for woodwork since I'd been doing this at home since the age of 10.  Good old dad.

I was advised that it was not suitable for a Young Lady despite the fact the the schoolboys came to our school for music they wouldn't contemplate the reverse happening for woodwork.

I also learned basic electronics from Dad whilst still in my teens, but have never attempted any metalwork I have to say.

JaxP

www.railwaytrees.co.uk

The real problem that I see to the hobby isn’t whether someone chooses to scratch build, assemble a kit, or purchase RTR, but is that it’s simply much easier to log on to a forum and complain than it is to actually pursue the hobby.

Instead of worrying about X or Y, maybe just consider the “U”, and what you want to do. It’s just as easy to find excuses to work in the hobby, as it is to find excuses to not too. If buying RTR, or kit bashing, or scratch building is the excuse somebody needs, than I’m all for it (especially if they come back and actually share their work and experiences here!)

Just a half hour at the workbench can cure many ills, and folks may be surprised at how quickly things can come together.
 

Dave 

 Ok You may be fair in saying the price is the same but in no way is it less. But in that same breath let me say if I buy a kit from Accurail or Branchline I can build 10 cars change the Couplers (if need be as most kit use some time of Kadee couple). What that may be $170.  The cars will work on a large layout for years and may not need to be anything more then filler. What you are suggesting is I buy 10 RTR and nothing more must be done. Please you still have the same issues you are pointing out for kits on the RTR almost all come with RP25 wheel still some paint work to do for numbers. So you may think I am being unfair but you are as well no RTR is truly RTR. And if you are freelancing now you must remove all the detail parts and hopefully not break any and strip the lettering then repaint. In a undec kit that cost is not there. You see Dave not all is well in RTR land yes some is better but one size does not fit all.

I am not looking for RTR to go away I like it I just need kits as well.  Not everyone wants to but what is in the shelf, and kits offer that.  I would like you to find a RTR Colorado & Coyote Creek boxcar. They only live on my railroad just like the V&O and other Proto Freelancing railroads Pricing is the first thing I think of the second is this point. You see my view is from what I am trying to build not what you see.

Mike, I see your point.  I just hear the argument that RTR is so much more money and for the most part it is, its just not as drastic as people often point out.  For me, what I model is almost all available in RTR and, admittedly, I'm only looking for stuff that "looks right" rather than is prototypically exact.  For those that are much more detail oriented and prototypical, I definitely see the concern with RTR stuff.  However, when you get to certain manufacturers (such as my favourite MRH sponsor, Rapido), they take great pains to "get it right" as RTR.  Sure, the price is a premium, but when compared to others, it really is a bargain.  Especially when my skill set is not conducive to super detailing things. 

Good discussion there, guys.

This Reverse Running actually ties into the March Reverse Running as you will soon see: Cheap Freight Cars Galore.

I turn the tables on those bemoaning the loss of things like the Athearn Blue Box raising the price of entry into the hobby. Should generate some lively discussion!

It doesn't have to be all RTR or all Scratchbuilt or aLl some of each because many of us take the approach that iff yoy can find a mtach for what you are lloking foir in RTR, so be it. However if what you need doesn't exist on the market, you may have to scratch build it or settle for is available.

Now I need some N-Scale car floats similar to the one Walther's offered in HO, but they don't exist and Walther's isn't going to offer it (and They have told me that several times already.) A Canadian compnay makes much smaller ones and those aren't acceptable since they are two track creations that can't c arry more than 8 forty-foot boxcars. S my choices arje either to do without or make my own. I've opted for the latter. But rather than  recreate a Walther's product I've decide to design a modern self propelled car float which is not only dimensionally bigger than what exists currently but also capable of carrying 22-26 modern cars on four tracks. Sure, this is new territory but the drawings are still in process as I need to do some tests on mockups to see how it will look and how practical the design looks and operates. I do have some ideas that look tempting but I need to get some wood to do it. Its not a problem because all I need to do is get the Home Depot or Lowes to get planks of the proper length.

That's my job for this summer.

Irv

A car manufactured as a kit, blue box or not, can be someone elses RTR. I have about 130 cars. Most I believe are blue box. Not really sure because I purchased them at train shows, meets or from friends. Because of the cost I try to buy used, gently used.

I even have a few buildings that were kits when they were "born" but I purchased them assembled. Again, once a kit, now RTR.

As my train rolls around my layout at a scale 15 or 20 MPH I don't think most will know if any individual car is kit or RTR.

Just a thought...

As someone who delights in turning a sow's ear into a silk purse (or at least a nice denim handbag), I am especially interested in reading your March reverse running. 

This has been a great discussion.  My early days in the hobby were spent riding my bike afterschool to my LHS, where I'd spend allowance on a blue box kit.  Those early kits taught me much.  I learned I wasn't ready for the more advanced rolling stock kits, how to add weight & change couplers for better performance, and how to tune trucks & wheels.  When I got my first (and only, so far) NMRA gauge it opened my eyes to all kinds of tuning and adjusting these shake-the-box kits (and my trackwork) to ensure reliability.

Some tuning and adjusting certainly helps even RTR models, like when wheelsets are out of alignment on the same truck.  So even those who purchase exclusively RTR (and run their trains on EZ track) will have work to do.  But I think there's something about building the kit, even as rudimentary as Athearn BB kits were, that encouraged tinkering and modification.  I'd expect RTR to be truly RTR, without need for adjustment, whereas something I built myself might need additional attention to ensure proper running.

Twenty years later and I still have a few plastic tubs worth of kits to build, mostly Athearn and MDC, but also newer models from Accurail and Branchline, so I don't miss the old kits, yet.  But in those same tubs are old Mantua and Tyco RTR cars in need of new trucks, kadee body-mounted couplers, additional weight, wire grabs, perhaps some underbody detail, new paint, etc.  There will always be work for kit-builders and kit-bashers as long as there are swap meets and ebay lots.

Here's a link to a thread about an old Silver Streak model I found at a swap meet and rebuilt.

http://www.the-gauge.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=2619

Galen

While there are some fantastic modellers who are doing very professional layout modelling, there still has to be room for the occasional modeller. Many of the layouts shown here are the envy of every modeller, if only in the space available! However, RTR provides an entry into the hobby for those who want to have fun running their trains, not spend hundreds of work hours kitbashing or scratchbuilding.

Let's face the truth, the world is changing fast and manufacturing costs have dropped enourmously. High quality models are now being produced for practically every loco, livery or period. While many serious modellers will scoff at the thought,brands like Bachmann will set you up a fully working layout with track, locos, rollng stock, dcc, etc for  200€! - Yes, they are toys, but in the end, how do new modellers come into the hobby? It will inspire them to move on to better things.

I don't model a prototypical layout, I have a medium-small custom layout: trains for me, and a road, town and lots of cars for my son to play. He loves to help in the design, and starts to participate in the other areas of the layout. If he is to be a future modeller he must have fun before he gets serious. I won't let him near my walthers gold line ore cars or the Roco professional locomotives but running a couple of Bachmann gp35 in DCC are the fun he gets out the layout. I am sure he would not be interested if, before he could put wheels to rails, he had to wait months for his father to build the damn thing!    

pepegalego

You are correct. Many have started out with a train set they received for Christmas or a birthday. The modelers who want to build everything really can't and never could. On the other hand they did not have the many locomotives, cars and structures that are available now. Plus all the many, many detail parts.

I would also like to compliment you for bringing your son into the hobby. Not for the hobby's sake but for the sake of your son and you. Many youngsters today are addicted to video games and there is a disconnect to their parents.

Bob Langer sez:

"The modelers who want to build everything really can't and never could."

That is very true.  So many of the people who carp about the growth of RTR don't actually build much.  I've heard lots of empty talk from guys at the local shows and shops who say their layouts will feature only the best of craftsman kits and cars, handlaid track, etc, and that RTR is ruining the hobby.  How many of them actually have layouts?  You guessed it...

Everybody has their own comfort level with stuff they have to build themselves.  The expanded choices for "buying your way in" help newcomers get up and running, and that can keep them in the hobby to learn about the more craftsmanship-oriented options later.  Despite all the gnashing of teeth, those options remain plentiful.  For me at least, the hobby is about building a layout, and however you get there is OK.

If anything RTR is making this a more popular hobby and has kept it from being the domain only of those who know how to use machine tools and can afford them. Otherwise, there would be only a few thousand of us at most. So if you want to do everything yourself, that is fine. But, it does not gie anyone the right to demean those who only buy RTR.

Irv

RTR is part of the formula if you want the hobby to grow because it makes it more accessible to newcomers who don't yet have the skills.

I don't get how RTR is killing the hobby, frankly. If you want to build it yourself, you still have that option - nobody's holding a gun to your head telling you that you HAVE to do RTR.

In fact, RTR provides lots of material for kitbashing, which I view as a variation on build-it-yourself.

What most serious modelers do these days (and it's what I do) is if I can find exactly what I'm looking for in RTR, I'll buy it. If I can't then I will kitbash or scratch build it. What RTR has done for me is let me model a basement empire and only have to build the stuff I want to build - not have to build everything.

How is that hurting the hobby? I don't get it.

The more things change...

One incident I'll always remember is when my Dad dropped me off at a hobby shop to get some rail joiners.  A couple of coots inside saw me grab a package and immediately started griping how rail joiners were the worst things ever devised in the history of the hobby (yes THE worst).  Only somebody who was lazy and lacking in skill would use them, you see.  Real modelers soldered bond wires around the joints like they did back in the day.  Rail joiners started the erosion of true craftsmanship that trickled down to ruin everything else.  This was around 1980 or so.

Whenever I see somebody bemoaning the rise of RTR, or newcomers buying their way into the hobby, I always picture those two fools and their hyperventilation about rail joiners.  I tried to figure out if either of these goobers actually had a layout, but if they did nobody I talked to ever heard of it.  Just like today, the loudest complaining came from those who did the least. 

Rob, are you telling us you would stoop so low as to actually using rail joiners instead of bond wires? Why don't you just put on the horn hook couplers and get it over with?

Tongue in cheek of course. Bond wires! Holy crap, more stuff to solder.

That's JAMES Bond wires to you, notorious joiner of rails...

Horace Fithers

My first encounter in a "real" LHS wasn't too dissimilar.  I was 16 and wanting to buy some track to build my Scenic & Relaxed layout as seen in "Nine N Scale Railroads" by John Armstrong and Thaddeus Stepak.  The grumbling I got when buying my Atlas sectional track (which I had a list for each piece I needed) and telling me "that is NOT how you build a layout" and huffy superiority complex almost got me out of the hobby completely.  What would have been wrong with saying, "You know, the sectional track is OK, but you should try using some flex track.  Its fairly easy to work with and I can show you how to..."  But, nope.  Total negativity and disdain for HIS OWN CUSTOMER.  But the store is still in business 23 years later.  Don't get it.