When the firing mixture is water rich, the smoke is a large white plume. Most common Downhill, the smoke coming out of the stack is cooler so it's condensing faster.

DHMO is not used in the firing mix, combustion residue and DHMO don't mix until the gaseous DHMO exhausts out the blast pipe into the petticoat pipe, entraining the combustion gases from the firebox.

What you're seeing the the Sandaoling video is condensing steam, not smoke. If there were any real smoke, you'd see a mottled gray exhaust plume where the particulate matter from incomplete combustion imixes in with the condensing gaseous DHMO. From the looks of it, the outside temperature at the mine is quite cold. When the steam exhausts from the stack, it rapidly loses pressure and loses heat to the atmosphere, which causes the steam to condense into liquid  form of DHMO.

Were the ambient temperature higher, it would be quite possible to see a clear stack with a plume of condensate not visible until it was a few feet  from the stack. You can see some of that phenomenon here (at least when the engineer is not blowing the whistle). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ju6rvbu7Cps

Mik

Bernd,

Murphy's law would be that with 1080 batteries, the one that would fail would be in the middle of the lowest level. How would you isolate the bad battery and know which one to change. If the batteries are over charged, that causes some pretty toxic gas. Does the corrosion from the lead acid shorten the life of the engine structure? I wonder what the EPA recycle fees would be for 1080 batteries.

I bet it would cost a tidy sum to replace the charging system, if the unit shorted out and damaged the transformers. I have read that some electric car owners have lost their home from charging system failures that caused fires.

The electric grid has a certain amount of loss, so burning natural gas, diesel or coal directly is more efficient. Energy is energy and electric requires the use of fuel in 98% of it's generation. The only thing that makes solar and wind profitable is government subsidies. Most of the wind generators and solar panels are imported.

A natural gas locomotive would be more efficient and cause less environmental impact. Only the wind, solar, and battery manufactures like this locomotive. That is except for the politicians and tree huggers.

Maybe a better idea would be to couple enough Chevy Volts together to do the job, then GM and the unions would have a market for those fine vehicles.

The good news is that with all those batteries it will be easy to locate weak track problems.

Regards,

John

********************************************************************************************************************************************

Don't worry, be crappy. Revolutionary means you ship and then test...Lots of things made the first Mac in 1984 a piece of crap - but it was a revolutionary piece of crap.>> Guy Kawasaki

John,

Your speaking my language. Glad they didn't use LiPo's in that unit.

If you read one of Ken's post you'll note he said that it was used as a shop switcher. Doesn't sound like they used it on the main line or even a local switcher.

Talking about using natural gas powered locomotives. Check this out.

http://www.joc.com/rail-intermodal/class-i-railroads/cn-tests-natural-gas-powered-locomotives_20120928.html

Maybe we should start a new thread on natural gas powered engines. Just don't smoke anywhere near it. It be jet propelled then.

Bernd

Bernd,

UP and ATSF (BNSF) have been there and done that? The biggest problem was staying close to the only fuel station.

http://www.motivepower-wabtec.com/locomotives/low-horsepower/specialty-switchers.php

http://www.users.qwest.net/~kryopak/mk1200G.htm

Regards,

John

*****************************************************************************************************************************************

An armed man will kill an unarmed man with monotonous regularity. >> Clint Smith

When the firing mixture is water rich, the smoke is a large white plume. Most common Downhill, the smoke coming out of the stack is cooler so it's condensing faster.

DHMO is not used in the firing mix, combustion residue and DHMO don't mix until the gaseous DHMO exhausts out the blast pipe into the petticoat pipe, entraining the combustion gases from the firebox.

What you're seeing the the Sandaoling video is condensing steam, not smoke. If there were any real smoke, you'd see a mottled gray exhaust plume where the particulate matter from incomplete combustion imixes in with the condensing gaseous DHMO. From the looks of it, the outside temperature at the mine is quite cold. When the steam exhausts from the stack, it rapidly loses pressure and loses heat to the atmosphere, which causes the steam to condense into liquid form of DHMO.

Perhaps I've stated i wrong, but I can take another shot...

You will always have smoke.  That little gray wisp, the clear smoke behind it.  When I start up my truck in the morning, there's white smoke - same principle - but that white smoke dissipates once my truck has warmed up for about five minutes, after which the exhaust is invisible.  It's one way you can tell which vehicles have just started up, and which ones have been running a while.

I'll presume the only variable the fireman can control is the fire, though perhaps he can adjust the flowrate ont eh water too - but we'll just consider firing. 

If your fireman has a fire that is too small, then the water in the boiler is not at it's maximum boiling temperature, hence more heat is going into the water then up the stack; it's a "cold" boiler. the exhaust out the stack is cooler than what the exhaust would be if the fire was large enough to maintain boiler temperature.

If the fire is too big, then the extra fuel is removed from the firebox up the stack, perhaps partially combusted but not completely combusted.

So if you see a locomotive sending up great clouds of white smoke, you can presume that the fire in the firebox is too cold hence the smoke is condensing almost immediately out of he stack; if the smoke is black, the fire is too hot and there's too much fuel in the firebox; you want smoke that is a light gray, almost clear.  At least, that's how I understand it.  it may indeed be the opposite though.

The point of the matter is that firing is not maximum or a minimum but a "just right."

You will always have smoke. That little gray wisp, the clear smoke behind it. When I start up my truck in the morning, there's white smoke - same principle.......

Unless you're getting blow by, it's not smoke, it's water vapor. The same thing happens with my Corolla, at least on a relatively cool damp day. Examine the tail pipe and chances are that there will be water dripping from it in the first 30 seconds after startup. When you first start up on a cool, damp day, the water vapor in the exhaust gases will condense while they go through an exhaust system that hasn't yet been heated to operating temperature. Once the temperature in the pipe comes up, there will be no condensation until it exits the tail pipe and by then, it will not be of a high enough concentration to be visible.

If your fireman has a fire that is too small, then the water in the boiler is not at it's maximum boiling temperature, hence more heat is going into the water then up the stack; it's a "cold" boiler. the exhaust out the stack is cooler than what the exhaust would be if the fire was large enough to maintain boiler temperature.

The boiling point of water is determined by pressure. IIRC, the boiling point of water is 373 degrees F at 200 PSI. If the fire can't maintain that temperature, what will happen is that the pressure will drop. Modern engines were equipped with superheaters, which would heat the steam quite a bit above the boiling point of water. There are two components to steam locomotive exhaust, the gases that are generated by combustion and the steam exhausting from cylinders.

If what's coming out the stack is white, it's not because the fire's not big enough, it's because it's cold outside and the steam is condensing into water droplets.  You'll only see large plumes of white when the temperature of the outside air is relatively cold. You don't see your breath on a summer's day. Go outside when it's colder than about 40 degrees or so and the water vapor in your breath condenses almost immediately and becomes visible. It's the same principle.

The only thing black smoke indicates is that there's too much fuel being fed to the fire for the operating conditions, or, in the case of an oil fired locomotive, that the fireman is sanding out the flues to clean them. If you've ever watched an oil burning steam locomotive in operation, you can see a black exhaust clear up very rapidly. That's either because the fireman has finished sanding the flues or has adjusted the firing valve to match the engineer's throttle setting.

Mike

I have seen this now in more than one place, hence, I'm not letting it go quite yet.  I wish I could find the original reference as I first read it about ten years ago now.

Here's one that I located. 

http://www.trainweb.org/oldmainline/omlunk1.htm

From its stack, a given steam engine sometimes output mostly thick black smoke, sometimes thin black smoke,and sometimes white smoke. What accounts for the different smoke colors?

Reader Mark Roberts answers:

"In theory, burning coal should generate remarkably little byproduct except water vapor and carbon dioxide. After all, the coal is just made up of hydrocarbons. In reality, there are a few other impurities mixed in with coal. These are pretty minor and should rarely be seen. Some coal is more impure than others.

"White exhaust is steam-- water vapor.

"Black exhaust is unburned coal particles and steam. It indicates that a lot of coal has been piled on to the fire or that the fire is not burning properly. This can be caused by a variety of reasons; not cleaning out the ashes, not enough air, too much coal, etc. It is analogous to a gasoline engine running rich.

"By adjusting the controls carefully the fireman can maximize the combustion of the coal. A properly-fired engine has a light gray exhaust."

I went looking and found that excess steam pressure in the boiler is vented up through the stack. I also found an additional side to white smoke I did not consider: too much oxygen in the air-fuel mix.

It all yields the same answer and it's not black nor white: black exhaust bad, white exhaust bad, gray exhaust good.

This considers a normal day at ambient temperature and pressure.  White smoke is not automatically a good sign: it's a sign your fireman needs to make an adjustment.  You won't be able to completely avoid it on a cold day, but the better your fireman is, the less white smoke will appear, even then.

I went looking and found that excess steam pressure in the boiler is vented up through the stack.

Now, I won't claim that it was never done that way, but no steam locomotive that I am aware of is set up in that way.  Most (if not all) had safety valves located on the boiler, usually on the steam dome, but sometimes in a separate turret or cluster or (in the case of some 19th century British and European engines) enclosed in a tall shroud just ahead of the cab.  The valves would vent directly to the atmosphere, with the pressure determined by either a counterweight or spring.  I have certainly never seen one which vented up through the stack, and with good reason.  The fireman needs to know if he's lifting the safeties, and that would be harder to do if the exhaust was mixed with the engine exhaust.

Oil burning steam locomotives do use steam to atomize the fuel oil.  A key control for the fireman is the atomizing valve which must be adjusted to properly spray the fuel oil into the firebox.  If too much atomizer is used, it is actually possible to blow out the fire so that the fuel oil vaporizes into white smoke rather than burning.  Definitely not good!  Small park engines are especially sensitive about atomizer adjustments.

The lower part of an oil burning firebox is lined with firebrick which is usually hot enough to re-light the fire if the atomizer and blower are finessed just right.  Otherwise the fuel oil vapor (white smoke) and air mix can explode with a loud thump.  Also not good, but usually with more embarrassment than damage.  As you may guess, I have been through this in the process of learning to fire oil burning locomotives.

On a stoker fired coal burner, steam jets are used to distribute the coal into the firebox.  This is another case of using DHMO in the firing mix.

Most steam locomotives use a "blower" steam jet pointed up the stack from the smoke box.  This steam jet moves combustion gases through the boiler and out the stack.

The condensation of steam into "white smoke" is certainly a function of ambient temperature.  A cold winter day is good for glorious clouds of white steam vapor.

On a GE Dash-9 diesel electric locomotive, the coolant drains down from the radiator into an expansion tank when the engine is in idle.  When the locomotive goes to work on a cool rainy day, hot coolant pumps into the radiator and vaporizes the rain water that has fallen on the radiator.  This too produces a cloud of "white smoke", though not as glorious as a steam locomotive.   

There is a reason for that term.  Steam power vessels and trains would routinely blow a large amount of steam up through the stack to blow any impurities out of the stack.  The result is black rain.  When it is announced to clear the deck because they are going to blow the stack you clear the deck.  You will only make the mistake once to get caught in it.

I have seen video interviews with old timers who ran steam engines.  They claim the heavy black smoke seen in photographs and video is for show, just for the photographers.  A clean running steam engine has no visible smoke.  One old timer in a video claimed a proper running steam engine was cleaner running than a diesel engine.

Den