Okay, so now that we have a group of willing volunteers with the necessary expertise to build a replacement index, may I suggest that we get started on building it?

I fear that if we wait for the outcome of Kalmbach's decision, we may never see a replacement product in our modeling lifetimes.  I also think that it isn't such a bad thing if there are multiple projects building and maintaining a model railroad magazine index; for comparison, take a look at how many websites are building their own indexes of U.S. census records (Ancestry.com, Footnote.com and FamilySearch.org all come to mind immediately, and they're not the only sites doing such work).

To get the discussion moving again, the next step is to define the goals of this project.  I would humbly submit the following tenets (in no particular order) based on my own experiences in volunteer projects:

• The index will not be used to serve magazine content beyond bibliographic data without the express permission of the magazine publishers.  In other words, we'll tell the modelers using the index where to find an article in a magazine but we will not reprint the article without permission from the publisher.  However, if content is available in the public domain, we should not be overly restricting on this point.
• The index should be free to use by the general public.
• There should be an easy way for model railroaders around the world to provide feedback on the index content whether it be corrections to the data itself or whether the search results lists articles that are correct for a given search.
• Model railroaders should be encouraged to submit data for the index that is not already included.
• Advertising, if it is needed to build revenue to pay for hosting and providing the index service, should be restricted to products and advertisers that are related to model railroading, and any advertising that is displayed with the index results should be presented in such a way that they do not appear as search results but are easily identified as advertisements.

One other point to consider on this matter is that of tax-exempt status.  If we are to build this index as a product that is free and volunteer supported, applying to be a charitable institution might benefit the project.  Doing so would allow tax-deductible monetary donations from the general public to help pay for server space and bandwidth in lieu of advertising.  But, IANAL, so I defer that question to someone who IAL.

I'm sure I'll think of more later today, but that's a start at least.

IF we as a group are going to start from scratch a magazine index, the FIRST thing we need to do is determine who is going to host it.  I would suggest approaching the NMRA about this.  They are an established non-Profit organization.  The alternative would by MRH, but would there be sufficietn resources for MRH to add this added expense? 

Ken L.

To build a new index from scratch would involve basically typing in the table of contents from each magazine we wish to index.

Then going forward, adding the TOC each time an issue comes out would be a minor task if we have a volunteer for each magazine.

As to hosting it, we can for starters - but I'd like to see it in the hands of the NMRA eventually so there's no proprietary ties. That provides the best long-term future, seems to me.

Shouldn't the index have more than just listing the Table of Contents.  That is, categories that the article would classify under.  So, for example, if I wanted to do a search on "Scenery" I could type the word in, and every article that has scenery as it's main focus would be listed.  Just listing the Table of Contents would be very limiting in terms of a search tool..Just a thought.

A couple of comments based on the feedback to my thoughts from earlier today...

IF we as a group are going to start from scratch a magazine index, the FIRST thing we need to do is determine who is going to host it.

I would disagree that this needs to be decided first.  It's farily easy to move a website, even one with a large database back end.  There are an extreme number of very large websites that started on smaller hosting packages.  Even Google started out on Stanford University's student web servers (see Google's corporate history page) before they outgrew that service a year later.  The hosting location is an implementation detail and not a goal of a project like this.  That said, however, I would also like to see the index hosted by the NMRA; it gives less of an appearance of bias to the web host.  It would be a great benefit to the hobby to have the project there and it would give the NMRA another point that can be included in their "What's in it for me?" answer to potential members (but as I put in my thoughts, I don't want to see the index put behind a membership firewall).

Money to pay for the hosting and bandwidth is a genuine concern on a project like this, which is one reason I included the possibility of relevant ads to support the hosting costs in my thoughts above.  But as I thought about it more this afternoon, I don't think specific strategies for revenue generation should be included in the goals.  If the NMRA hosted the project, it would simplify donations to support the project as that infrastructure is already in place there.

However, until we have an agreement in place for NMRA to host it, I've already seen a few offers for initial hosting both in this discussion thread and on the Slashdot discussion that went up last week.  We can work on developing the project goals and also the initial database and site design before we know where it will be hosted.  If we use server tools that are widely available (I'm thinking of the common LAMP server using Linux, Apache, MySQL and PHP/Perl), almost every hosting company will be able to support the site that we build.

To get to what I am perceiving as the deeper question from several of the commenters around the internet, I see no significant problem with building a new index even if the index that Kalmbach used to host is fully taken over intact by another host.  Like I mentioned earlier, there are a lot of projects that on the surface would appear to be duplicate efforts.  To bring the analogy closer to what we're used to as model railroaders, just look at the number of manufacturers there are that make the track on which our trains run (my layout uses track from three different manufacturers).  Each of those projects has its own strengths and weaknesses, and the modeler is free to use whatever track he/she likes best.  This duplication also means that if one project disappears, like we see now with one index hosted by one company, there will be another still around for modelers who still value and can continue to use a search service.  The discussions about the old index have already mentioned a few problems with its implementation (such as how the old code would lock out an IP address permanently if it made too many search requests in too short a time), so I also see this as an opportunity to improve the entire index site.

To build a new index from scratch would involve basically typing in the table of contents from each magazine we wish to index.

Yes, and I believe that's how the original index was created as well.  It has to start somewhere, and the old index began with someone going through magazines and entering information.  One strategy that I picture here is to specify a minimum set of magazine issues that need to be included in the index and then build a work list that can then be parcelled out to able volunteers to enter a couple issues at a time.  As the work is completed, more magazines will be added to the work list.  With enough volunteers, this task can be rather quick, especially with the magazines that most modelers have in their own personal libraries.

I'd like to go into some possible implementation details on this point...

To begin with, this task list could be a page on a project-specific wiki that lists the work in a table format with columns for the magazine and specific issue identification, the name of the person working on entering that issue's data, and perhaps another column to list the name of the person verifying the integrity of the data after it is keyed in.  Once work on an issue is complete, that row would be removed from the table.  As new magazines and issues are needed, they can be added to this work list as new rows and the process would continue.

A more advanced approach would be to include a table in the indexing database for work that is yet to be done.  Anyone who wants to contribute some time would go to the page that runs a query against this table for the most current work list, and click a few buttons on the page to state that a specific task is being worked on and the site would then take the user to another page where the data can be entered.  The advantage with this approach is that it is much more dynamic and can also include some prioritizing and aging algorithms that would "timeout" tasks that have been marked as in progress for too long, allowing them to be worked by another volunteer.

The second approach on this task is more appealing to me and it is how the genealogy indexing projects that I participate in work (FamilySearch indexing is one example).

Whatever strategy is used for a work list, it seems to me that a wiki would be helpful for us to at least begin with for specifying the goals, guidelines, policies and implementation design.  I've been a volunteer editor and admin on Wikipedia for several years now, and that model has worked well there.

Shouldn't the index have more than just listing the Table of Contents.  That is, categories that the article would classify under.

Definitely, and I should have included that in what I wrote earlier.  The whole point of the index is to make it easier to find the articles that we are looking for, and as a user, that would include keywords like this.  When we get down to the implementation details, we also need to consider that someone will try to search for atricles about specific railroads by reporting marks or other abbreviations as well.  The tricky part is figuring out what keyword list to use from the beginning of data entry to minimize the number of times that the index needs to be adjusted with new keywords.  As I've found from going through several years of photographs in Lightroom, there will always be a new keyword that needs to be added to existing applicable entries. 

But, this then leads back into the goal of simplifying user feedback for the search results.  When a user finds that an article should be listed under a specific keyword and it isn't already there, it should be easy for that user to suggest and/or make the change right then.  Making this update immediate prevents the improvement to the index from being lost.

Having gotten my degree in Information Systems and having participated in the first half of the Computer Science Senior Project (Analysis & Design), I'm going to watch the creation of this project with a fair amount of trepidation.

Not because I don't think it's needed (it is) or I don't want it to succeed (I do)... but I've learned that software specification and design is a lot like stew and sausages in it's creation.

Joe,

Count me in.  I am in US/Central time zone and have web/DB experience.

Cheers!

Ryan

Im quite surprised myself that Kalmbach has decided to quit the magazine Index.looks like Im going to have to  go through all my model railroad mags (RMJ,MRING,Mainline Modeler,etc.) and get the back issue lists copied.Then again,nothing surprises me for what happens at Kalmbach.As Bob had stated earlier in his comments here in the MRH,Kalmbach is loosing its status as a hobby magazine.From the posts I have read on here,it appears that MR is done as a magazine (my opinion).Seems that MR is more interested in DCC,and ready-to-run stuff.Ive been into model railroading for 35 of my 39 years living,and I have seen quite a drastic decline in the thickness of MR.It was once a great magazine to get,but lately,it isnt worth the time and money to become a subscriber.For a year subscription at $44.00 (roughly),you get a magazine that is as thick as Newsweek,or Time.Then,if you add Trains to that subscription,your looking at (roughly) $90.00 for both,for 1 year.Is this worth it? I dont think so.For Kalmbach subscription prices on both,I can get better magazines like Railpace,Railroads Illustrated,Railfan/Railroad,and RMC. To me, RMC prints a better magazine that covers ALL aspects of model railroading..not just DCC.I dont operate DCC,nor will I ever have it on my layout.I also just became a member of the NMRA,and I am finding that the NMRA magazine is quite interesting too.Of a footnote here..its bad enough that this hobby is slowly bleeding to death,yet now with resourses vital to the model railroader becoming extinct,one wonders whats next for this hobby.Maybe its time for Kalmbach and other publishers of model railroad mags to start listening to us.....the modeler.

Not to hijack the thread, but I would dispute the hobby is slowly bleeding to death.  I believe we're in a renaissance with some of the up-and-coming manufacturers putting out ever more detailed models, such as MRH sponsors Rapido, BLMA, Paw of a Bear and others, innovative products like Fast Tracks as well as fantastic technology in DCC, lighting and sound innovations and a certain e-zine that is making a big impact in how the hobby press works.  I just don't see where people get the idea the hobby is dying.  Changing?  Absolutely, but dying?  Hardly.

Dave, I'm on board with you here. Not to deviate, but I too tire of the laments about the hobby headed off a cliff, in a bus full of RTT and DCC, and a blind old man named Kalmbach doing the driving.

I must say since my "re-introduction" to the hobby a few years ago, the one aspect that continues to work against that decision is the constant useless negativity some people harbor towards other elements of the hobby. Scales, control systems, minutiae; the arguments are incessant, tiresome, and ineffectual.

I too think the overall environment is in a state of flux, and some very strong elements are establishing themselves in this environment (most in direct contrast to what is purported to be the "right" way to do things). I for one am excited for the future, not scared by it.

My experience indicates there is plenty of room for everyone, from highrail tinplate on the plywood prarie to highly detailed static photo dioramas, to whatever it is I can't think of.

To that end, I choose to support as many ventures as I can that are hobby related, within respect to my ability and interests. Kalmbach, Carstens, MRN, subscriptions renewed. MRH, sponsors approached first and utilized when I can. NMRA tried, and due to a variety of reasons, reduced to OPSIG.

So I don't question Kalmbach's decision, that is un-related to the task at hand. As I have said before, this is an opportunity as well as a challenge.

I'm the first person to toss a frag grenade into a "kumbuya" circle, but really, is it that hard to keep perspective, and just say " that's damn cool" when it is, or just say" thanks for what you've done", and move on when it's time?