The discussion thread was locked quite rapidly. No discussion, at least in the MR forum. Some people would go ballistic over this issue.

I did not look anywhere else. To bad. I used the site quite a lot.

From what I have read, send email directly to the powers that be.

Rich

First, I think this is a PR DISASTER on Kalmach's Hand.  Not only with the sudden decision to do pull the index without warning, but then to shut out discussiosn about it on their own website. Their customers, including me, are very upset over this, and their more recent actions are only compounding the PR problems.

Second, the excuse about the data can't be "transfered" or otherwise moved to a different kind of database that is more secure and usuable with a more modern OS is laughable.  Not that I would ever condone such things, any system can be hacked into, no matter how secure it is.  Therefore I seriously doubt a MS-DOS based program would prevent more ingenous programmers to be able to get to the actual data to extract it.  It has been said by the Editor of Model Railroader, the data is intertwined with the Software.  That certainly would make the job more difficult but not impossible.  I would have prefered Kalmbach being more upfront and honest that they do not beleive the needed resources (i.e. paying staff's time which for computer programmers can get expensive!) to extract the data and transfer it to a different based system is worth the benefit.  I can understand on a business/bottomline bases for their actions.  I would even respect that.  But this decision seesm half a**ed, at least in its abrupt decision and no indication there is a willingness on Kalmbach's part to release the index to a third party such as the NMRA, or another responsible organization, as this is a very VALUABLE tool used by many, who would make this index avaialble for free to the public without the need for some service to be paid for. 

So I would say, third, it is my hope that if Kalmbach is unwilling to commit the needed resources to reinstate the index so it can be used again by hobby enthusiasts, then it transfer the ownership to someone that does.  If I understood Joe Fugates post on the LDSIG list, MRH is in disucssions abotu this, and I hope if and when there is any progress on those discussions, Joe will be able to update us on this as this is a vital tool.  I used the index constantly as I can't remember which issue particular articles are in, and I would end up spending hours looking though issues jsut to find one of those articles! 

FWIW,

Ken Leaver, Jr.
President/CEO, Pennsylvania & Allegheny RR, Circa 1953

Since I"m in MIlwaukee at the NMRA National Convention, I have direct face-to-face access to the powers that be in Kalmbach and the NMRA, so I will be seeing if I can convince Neil B. to give all the digital assets to the NMRA.

If we could just form an open source project around this effort, then it might be possible to pull this thing from the fire.

Even if Kalmbach doesn't pony up the resources, I still think an open source effort where we all work together to have a new magazine index built is a possibility. Especially if we work this like an open source effort where we each volunteer to donate a little bit, for the benefit of all.

So hang on, I should have something to report by tomorrow (Friday) night, July 16th ...

if and when you need volunteers for either project, I willing to help for sure!

Ken L.

I say let it go. Now may be the best time to break it out into something that is MORE useful than it was. 

My point is now may be the time to rescan all of the publications, and provide full text article searches. You don't have to provide access to the articles, but you could develop a much richer database than what was there.

I did this recently with my own collection, and while mine was small (just a couple of years), I was able to do both MR and MRC in just a few hours with modern equipment.

I volunteered to help in that task on the locked MR forum discussion, and that remains a valid offer.

I'm all for it! Though I found the Trains.com article index useful, it's search engine was not easy to use.  I could type certain criteria in, and would come up with "No results" when I know they were their.  So maybe MRH could sponsor a web-site to start this kind of project.

Ken L.

 I too like the idea of a searchable index, but why not expand it to all the major pubs print and digital?  You could even expand it to include the historical society pubs and open up a wealth of information to everyone!

I've got programming/database experience and I'm happy to help!

Ryan

Well if Joe fails we could all and I mean every Subscriber of Model Railroader we could E-Mail them and explain That without the index function we don't need their magazine and cancel our subscriptions and boy cote them until they reinstate the index that basically we have been paying for over the past 50 years they believe they have the power to just rip the Index out of our hands they proved that when they locked the Index forum when actually they need us more then we need them. Just think of all the advertisers MRH would pick up with MR GONE. this may seam Rash but they call it Power to the People and we didn't stop buying their Magazine they stopped providing us what we actually made for theml..

Dan

 Hi

I'm the guy who first noticed it had gone and started the first thread on the Kalmbach forums; I'm also the person that discovered, many years ago , if you use it too much, it locks you out, so maybe I use it more than most .

I think we should be a little more understanding of Kalmbach's position, though I think they made the PR  hole deeper for themselves by locking all the forum disscusions. 

Firstly, they bought the index around 10 years ago and provided it with a better web interface. then they have hosted it all those years and updated it until a couple of years ago.

Secondly, you need to remember that we have a whole generation of computer "experts" now who have never used or understood dos programs - to them it is a dark art.

Thirdly, Kalmbach is primarily still a dead tree publishing company, their website is a secondary interest to them, it's a way of selling more books and magazines. 

And finally, we live in an age of security audits audits and standards compliance. for all we know they may not have the source to the .exe that ran the index and if they do a complier may no longer exist for that language. It may require an unsupported DOS version or privilages to run  that may be considered unsafe in this day and age.

So I suspect what has happened is some sort of audit has been commissioned by either them or their webhost, some one has looked at this program and flagged it as a problem.Now you know what will happen with most major companies if a consultant tell them they have a possible security hole in their website?

Now as to converting it to something more modern, I'm also sure if you went to a software house and said " I've got this 20 year old DOS programe that no one understands which keeps it data in an undocumented format can you convert it for me?" 80% would say no it can't be done, or at least it can't be done economicaly.

Why? well they may not have the experetise in house and there is no way of knowing how long a project like that would take and so there is no way you can give anybody an estimate of the cost. It's the sort of project that you know the chances of the client getting upset about the cost and never using you again are much greater than a successful conclusion. 

But it's also the sort of think where a open-source project could succeed. I for one think this is the way to go. 

Just to reiterate my point, I'm in the mindset that this would be a fair amount of work for what amounts to limited returns. I'd much rather see, and or participate, in a fair amount of work that could result in a more useable and flexible database, consisting of more terms and catagories than was originally input.

I also think the community should dump the publishers, and remove them from this project in it's entirity. If you don't than you run the same risk down the road of having it withheld.

Were I still stateside, I'd be happy to start buying up the magazines by year for scanning. Certainly there must be someone with copies that they are not using any more.