Why dowel/threaded rod to support upper deck?

Just curious why you initially thought of threaded rod and kept with the basic idea of using the dowels?  Why not cantilever the upper deck to keep it totally clear?  Not saying or suggesting how you did it is the wrong way, just would like to know the thinking behind how you did it as I will have two staging yard decks below the first deck of the modeled portion of my own layout, and am debating how to support them.  I'm concerned that any vertical supports will get too much in the way, but maybe that concern isn't warranted.

Also, for those who might need to use threaded rod in such a situation (for whatever reason), but have similar concerns about the sharp edges, might I suggest you could still do the threaded rod, but put a "sleeve" (of pvc or styrene tube) over each piece. I have seen that done before and it seems to work out pretty well.

Ken L.

Steel Rope

If attaching to the ceiling is an option then you could use steel rope from ceiling through to lower deck with crush sleeves below each deck. Steel rope is so amazingly strong you could use a very small gauge so it would not be intrusive. A few drops of 1/16" diameter would supply more than sufficient holding power.

Re: Ken

"Just curious why you initially thought of threaded rod and kept with the basic idea of using the dowels?  Why not cantilever the upper deck to keep it totally clear?"

Valid questions.  The cantilever idea would have worked of course, however it would have required additional brackets or other types of support that may have intruded just as much visually (I don't care for the look of metal shelf brackets or most of the other cantilever options I've seen used - your aesthetic sense may vary).  We messed around with support spacing and determined the supports along the front weren't obstructing use of the staging level in any meaningful way.

"Also, for those who might need to use threaded rod in such a situation (for whatever reason), but have similar concerns about the sharp edges, might I suggest you could still do the threaded rod, but put a "sleeve" (of pvc or styrene tube) over each piece. I have seen that done before and it seems to work out pretty well."

That was actually my first response to Jeff (just use a sleeve over the threads), but his response was that, since I hadn't picked up the materials at the time, the dowels would likely be cheaper, easier to use, and perhaps stronger.  I was initially just stuck on the idea that threaded rod was somehow the way to go since one of our other local layouts very successfully used it, and I'd seen it elsewhere.  "That's the way we've always done it..." in other words.

You Do Not need them

Visit the Grande Pacific Web site and look though the pictures.  Top leve is 18" wide and has two 2 1/2 screws with a washer on top one holding  it up.   Unless you plan on holding a square dance on top of second level you are doing what most model rr people do and that is over kill.  http://www.grandepacificmodelrr.org  This has to look better than those dowels that always be just in the wrong place.

Re: You do not need them

Art Houston sez:

"Visit the Grande Pacific Web site and look though the pictures. ...you are doing what most model rr people do and that is over kill. ...This has to look better than those dowels that always be just in the wrong place."

I had the benchwork installed with 2 1/2" screws and didn't like the stability, hence the additional supports, especially on the two-foot deep areas.   I anticipate operators leaning on the upper deck from time to time and the screws by themselves weren't cutting it as we leaned during initial construction.  There wasn't much movement but just enough to give me concerns about scenery possibly cracking along the wall and spoiling the backdrop to 3-D transition.  Too bad I didn't need to do all this, but I think I'll leave everything as is.

Upper level benchwork support

From seeing the photos I assume that your layout is attached to an exterior wall. If you have concrete wall blocks you "should" not have any problems using appropiate hardware. On a wood-framed house attaching them to the studs with 3" or 3 1/2" wood screws "should" be more than enough ( 2 screws at each stud). Studs typically are spaced 16" from each other. Being the top level probably will carry less weight than the lower ones. The real danger would be not the framing coming off the wall but separating where the transversal pieces are attached to the runners attached to the wall. A real strong joint ( glue + screws) is REQUIRED here. Framing steel hardware ( available at any Home Depot) will be very helpful.

As the dowels are installed already, you might be able to find some sort of "scenery artistic license" to hide them, like some tall buildings or trees. Google "gorre & daphetid" to see some John Allen's tricks with his layouts.

Re: Pipopak

Pipopak sez:

"From seeing the photos I assume that your layout is attached to an exterior wall. If you have concrete wall blocks you "should" not have any problems using appropiate hardware. On a wood-framed house attaching them to the studs with 3" or 3 1/2" wood screws "should" be more than enough ( 2 screws at each stud)."

Yes it's attached to an exterior wall framed with 2X4 studs 16" on center.  As I noted in a previous response above, the screws more or less held the benchwork up, but there was just enough movement for the second deck scenery to be able to start moving and developing a crack where it joins the backdrop, thus inhibiting my ability to maintain the planned seamless transition into the backdrop to help expand the scene (important due to its shallow depth).  Once this area reaches the scenery stage I'll post some photos to show how that's intended to work.  Weight isn't the concern, just movement.

The point of the blog post was that the idea we used could be applicable to other situations.  Yes, the benchwork in the photos is only 12" wide, but the rest of the staging is beneath 24" wide benchwork, and no way are screws enough to hold everything sufficiently without additional support in such areas.  Since such support was needed there, I decided to add it under the rest of the adjacent upper deck as well.

"As the dowels are installed already, you might be able to find some sort of "scenery artistic license" to hide them, like some tall buildings or trees. Google "gorre & daphetid" to see some John Allen's tricks with his layouts."

All of the bottom deck areas involved are UNSCENICKED STAGING as noted previously.  I'm not using visually intrusive supports like these anywhere a bottom level will have scenery, since I don't wish to employ fanciful John Allen-style scenic treatments or other means of hiding them.  I wouldn't recommend this type of support in a scenicked area.

Dowel

Without the added support (either dowel or threaded rod),  the benchwork wasn't as level to our liking.  It also had too much flexibility and movement.  My point was that I think the dowel looks more finished than threaded rod.  Plus I know and would have rubbed up against the rods during a future OPS session.

As to over kill

I have never seen anything overly dead. The early refrigerators were over built which is why the one in our club house is older than some members and still working just fine. The DC 3s were built stronger than they needed to be as were many things in that era. Draw back they outlasted their intended use. As far as the support structure for the layout goes that is a good thing. Also an flexing on the shaft of that screw will weaken it a great deal. I would much rather over build than have something large and heavy fail and hit thousands of dollars of model railroad models.

Really like the biscuit joiner idea and the additional supports wherever they can be used.

Support of upper deck

I built my upper deck by screwing an L girder to some wood studs and then about every 2 feet or so placing a steel angle shelf bracket above the L girder with its back scewed to the stud and the bottom of the angle bracket screwed to the top of a 1 x 3 inch clear pine piece of wood screwed to the rear L girder and then connected to either a 1 x 3 inch  clear pine board OR a front L girder  made the same as the rear L gircer with a web of 1 x 3 and a top flange of 1 x 2 inch, all clear pine. I hope I have placed a picture correctly below. All the upper deck track will go above or through the space under diagonal portion of two of the brackets. This is very strong and frankly stronger is better. I do not want the upper deck crashing on the lower deck. Also the view below is clear and no visible supports blocking any views.

John

"All of the bottom deck areas

"All of the bottom deck areas involved are UNSCENICKED STAGING as noted previously.  I'm not using visually intrusive supports like these anywhere a bottom level will have scenery, since I don't wish to employ fanciful John Allen-style scenic treatments or other means of hiding them.  I wouldn't recommend this type of support in a scenicked area."

   Put a few more dowels in and paint them concrete gray and you'd have a good representation of the State Belt railway tracks running under the elevated freeway :> ) .....DaveB