What are your goals?

You could build a wonderfully enjoyable layout which is nothing but a yard, with enough staging to bring trains on and off the layout.  You can also build a great layout with no yard at all, just staging.  It all depends on what you want to do in an operating session.

If you want to model all of your local operations coming in and out of a yard, then you'll probably want to have a yard with roughly the same capacity as the number of spots served.  Remember, though, that a yard which is over 50% full is too choked to operate properly.  I feel that cars ought to come into the yard, not because they're destined to go out on the same operating session, but sometimes because they're being stored for later, though the average number of cars in and cars out will have to be the same to avoid filling or emptying the yard.  On the flip side, I feel that it's best to not spot more than 50% of your industries at any given time.  The 50% congestion rule and the 50% spots rule cancel each other out, in a sense, so making the yard capacity and total car spots match is a reasonable target.

With that said, I always think that more is better when it comes to a yard.  If the yard is ONLY there to serve the locals, then the rule above applies.  If it's also going to be originating and terminating through trains, then you need additional capacity for that.  Again, figure out how long it will take to fully switch a train out, and how many trains will arrive or depart in that time.  Take the total number of cars in those trains and double it, then add that capacity to the yard.

Like I said at the beginning, some people don't like to model or to operate a yard.  I love it, because the challenge of figuring out how to effectively switch a long cut is an enjoyable one for me.  I also like how yards look, though I realize that they can eat up money like nothing else on a layout.  In the end, it's going to depend on what you want to get out of your layout.

another equation

Never heard that yard size should be determined by how many cars will fit in an industry. One of my rules I try to keep in mind is that a yard that is more than 50% full is FULL. One thing I see more than anything on a model railroad is yards that have cars flowing out of each end of the storage tracks. I took to painting a tie at each end of all my yard and industry tracks that represent the "foul point" of the track. Crews are instructed not to store anymore cars than a track will occupy. 

So what do the 1:1 guys do. Well first of all they have far more track than we do and the ability to plan moves due to working in a 1-1 time. When one track is full the yard will instruct the crew to double to another track. One big difference that the real railroad has over the model is they use the tracks for more than one purpose. For example it was not uncommon for us to be told as a main line train to pull the power from the house, couple up on Forwarding track 14. Once that was done we would then be instructed to double the train to forwarding 3, hold onto the first 20 cars pull to the tower and contact a utility for an air dump. As model railroaders we get focused on track one is east bound and track 2 is west ect. One thing I try to get across to my yard operators is that just because it is labeled on the fascia plan as an arrival departure track they can use it as they choose. I now find that the yard guys will build a local with the loco attached to it in one of the storage tracks. the crew will p/u the train there and depart on their job. 

So guess I am saying a lot without answering your question. Your yard looks to hold plenty of cars based on the amount of industries you have. The only thing that is lacking in the plan is an arrival/departure track. I guess you would use the one closest to the main. Your two leads are well planned, maybe connecting the inside lead to the first lead would be a good idea. That would give you 2 in and out tracks on that end of the yard. As was stated in your other thread, adding a lead to the other end of the yard would be a must for me. How many extra locos are you planning on storing. What type of a yard do you see this being. Probably not a division point, maybe a local yard/interchange yard. In that case the prototype quite often will use a single stub ended track and have a fuel truck come to the yard one a week. All service is performed at a larger facility or on the RIP as you have that already.

OK I am out of breath.

Analyze

Take a look at this thread:  https://forum.mrhmag.com/magazine-feedback-was-ezines-891776

Scroll down to Ken Biles post about Track Analyzer. Download and install. By playing around with the Total Storage Track variable you can see the effect on the railroad operation as you modify yard and spur lengths. Won't directly answer your question but in conjunction with the advice previously given Track Analyzer may help you make a better guess.

"I'm currently in the process

     It really depends on what you want to build. Do you want a yard big enough to display all your models, or do you want a yard big enough to handle the operations of your layout, or are you trying to model a certain prototype in which case the yard should match the real thing as much as possible? I can think of railroads or layouts that are all yard ( New York harbor pocket terminals for instance) and railroads with no yards( circular industrial commodity carriers). So first step is decide what the layout is going to be, then decide what kind of yard best fulfills  that goal..DaveB

Operation not Size

I would not approach building a yard based on a "car number or layout size to yard size" ratio unless you will also be using the yard as your staging area. "Something I would not recommend doing". 

It is important to understand a yard is not a permanent storage location for cars.  It is a living entity that is critical in railroad operations.  So approach a yard as you would any industry you want on your layout.

What function does it play?  How does it fit in to my layout operation overall?  Do I have the physical space on my layout?  How are real world yards designed and how do they operate?

 The first thing I would do is to research Google for the different types of yards and basic designs. From first glance it looks like a yard is just a group of long tracks.  But if you look at the big picture, a yard has many working parts including yard leads, arrival departure tracks, classification tracks, etc... that allow for operation.

Research will also help on the "model railroad" side including scaling down real world yard design and operations for model railroad use.  It will also help you avoid common model railroad yard design issues including potential derailment problems.

Here's how it works

If there were no such thing as staging tracks on a modern layout, then the yard size would be determined by totalling up all the industry storage capacity on your layout, doubling that number, and then designing a yard with that capacity. (The ideal is a yard that's never more than 50% full, since it's the easiest to switch.)

But with staging involved where trains can originate and/or terminate "offstage" then the dynamics are all different.

My upcoming editorial and article on layout design by formula will somewhat address this question. But in the meantime, here's some guidelines.
 

GUIDELINES ON DETERMINING YARD SIZE

First, determine how many trains (total cars) will originate from staging and terminate in the online yard. Then determine how many trains (total cars) will originate in the online yard and terminate in staging. Then determine how many total cars will originate from the online yard and go to online industries (industries on the layout). Finally assume a car-for-car swap at online industries - while 50 cars may go out, assume 50 cars will return as well.

If all these cars were in the yard at the same time then the yard would need to handle this total number of cars. Let's say your train length is 20 cars and you determine the following:

1. 5 trains (100 cars) will originate from staging and terminate in the online yard.
2. 4 trains (80 cars) will originate from the online yard and terminate in staging.
3. 50 cars will originate from the online yard and go to online industries, and 50 cars will return from industries.

That means the yard needs to hold 230 cars (100+80+50) worst case. However, all these cars will not be in the yard at once. My rule-of-thumb would be to design the yard so that the 230 cars, if they were all in the yard at once, would fill it to 80% (which is clogged and hard to switch, but not impossible).

This means 230 divided by 0.8 or 288 cars is how large the yard capacity I'd shoot for.

More likely at any given time, you will have a lot less than 288 cars in the yard, more likely only 150 cars or so max, which will leave the yard at around 50% full, making it very easy to switch.

However, this is ideal. If you want to compromise, then drop the yard down below 288 cars. If you go back to 230 cars, then 150 cars in the yard will put it at 65% full and it will be harder to switch because there will not be as much free trackage for maneuvering. If you drop to 200 cars for the yard size, then 150 cars would put the yard at 75% full, which is approaching clogged levels.
 

RULE OF THUMB, NOT AN ABSOLUTE

These concepts and figures are a rule-of-thumb and not absolutes. The more runaround tracks, switching leads, wyes, turntables, and other trackage you provide for maneuvering and turning equipment, the easier it will be to switch a smaller, more full yard.

Finally, keep in mind the mainline to yard trackage ratio on most model railroads (especially with modern staging trackage) means the mainline's ability to roll trains will push the ability of the yardmaster to keep up. So anything you can do to make sure your online yard has plenty of room to switch and maneuver, the more the yardmaster will appreciate it.

Reply

After reading everyone's comments I realize I should have been a little more specific on my intended goals. My current plan is that through freights originating in staging will either pass through the yard without stopping, or simply drop off and pick up cuts of cars destined for off layout destinations east and west. Only local freights servicing the layout industries will originate and terminate in the yard itself. Based on what's been said, I kind of think I might be a little on the shy end in terms of yard capacity for what I want to do, and will take that into consideration as I try to further refine my plans. As always, the advice from fellow MRH modelers has proved an invaluable aid. Thanks!

One comment I'll make is an

One comment I'll make is an awful lot of published model railroad plans have way, way too much yard for the industries present.  There is no need for a 4-track (or more) classification yard holding 15 cars each on your pike with 6 2-car industry spurs.  And I see it all the time.

Now if you are using a 'yard' as visible staging on your layout, thats fine, but it isn't going to be a working yard!

While a heavily full yard is tougher to switch, you might WANT that to make switching operations a challenge. The classic British Inglenook puzzle is just a small yard that is 73% full.  Depends if you are looking for a challenge in building the train with switching moves (a fuller yard) or maintaining time schedules (an emptier yard).

Yards

I was unable to download the yard analyzer, Norton threw a fit over security and when I finally got past that, it said the file had been moved.

Might want to drop a line to the UP and tell them they are doing it all wrong, the largest railroad classification yard in the world, North Platte with a capacity of 1000's of cars, has no interchange and only a couple 100 (at most) cars of room at industries.

Depends whether the yard is an industry support yard or a through freight yard.  Modelers tend to build "division point" yards heavy on infrastructure (roundhouses, engine service tracks, A/D tracks, rip tracks, yardmaster towers, dual leads, etc.) which are designed and used for processing through freights, but use them more as industry support yards ( which typically have much, much less infrastructure).

I will be more or less replicating my previous layout design in my new space.  The design had/will have 7 yards in a 23x25 ft room:  Reading staging, Reading local, Reading coach, Birdsboro, Coatesville, B&O interchange, Wilmington.

Crowded is real world

This is how I found the interchange yard in Emerson Yesterday.

What do you do with this? Is the yard big enough? lol!

Also exacerbating the issues here was a track gang working along the main in noyes. The BNSF crew was ready to go home at 1pm, the CN crew was waiting to start pulling their train together at 1pm. The work crew said it would clear the flag by 6pm.

Now figure this out... somehow the 2 CN locos at the south end of the Emerson yard headed north, light, around 3pm. I have no idea why they didn't take any traffic with them.

The southbound train was 70 cars.

Crowded is real world. Crowded is also fun!

Reply

Bill/ ScrewySqrl... There might be some truth that a yard which is a little fuller might be more fun, at least in terms of visual appeal. It just looks cool with a ton of cars sitting on the yard tracks as a through freight pulls by on the main. I imagine at first the challenge of switching a fuller yard would be fun as well, but I have to wonder how long that fun would last? On earlier layouts I remember having switchbacks and challenging track arrangements at industries, thinking that would make the switching more fun, but after a while it just became annoying. Now I try to plan track work as simple as I can. Maybe that same thing would happen with an over full yard.

Dave...I agree with your comments about the purpose of a yard. At first I tried to have more service track and an engine house on my new plan, which as you said is more in line with a division point yard. As I looked at my yard plan though and thought about how it would actually be used on this layout in operations, I discovered it would actually function more like an industry support yard. Once I realized that, I was able to simplify things leading to a much less cluttered look, and a much better plan. Proving once again, you can't plan something until you actually know what you're trying to plan!

There's more to it....

One must consider the function of the yard on the model railroad. If the yard in question is being relied upon to keep other active crews (IE: people in the room) busy - then the pressure is too much to deal with elaborate switching puzzles in the yard - there's enough to keep track of without added complication.

On the other hand, if the layout is only ever operated by one or 2 people, then occasional overcrowding can add a lot of interesting challenges.

The case I presented above was the actual scenario on the prototype I model. It's a case of severe overcrowding that has been the norm at this location for over a year now. The size AND frequency of the trains coming through this interchange has doubled.

On a large/busy model railroad, making the yard too much "fun" limits the other participants ability to also have "fun" - which is not cool.

Paul, in your plan there just

Paul, in your plan there just might be more than one use for your yard as it was drawn.

Crew and power change point. An example of this would be C&O and L&N, One end of the yard led to each railroad, and they handed off coal trains.

Coal marshaling yard plus local industries.

Beginning of helper district or power change to heavier mountain engines.

Set off yard, which will then fill trains to tonnage in one direction and accept cuts of cars from the other direction. They can also be broken down in staging to keep up the forwarding end of the bargain, just add some tracks for additional power in staging, and you will have the added benefit of running extra locomotives to balance power.

Junction yard, junction itself can be represented in staging but trains can be split or combined in the yard for the points on the junction.

Could represent a point that has heavy traffic and a service point for power and little in the way of classification with just power in bound for service being traded for that which is ready to go.

There are lots of ways to use what you have designed so that a very reasonable explanation exists for your inclusion of the features that appeal to you. In fact one of the things that makes it appealing is the versatility of the plan.

Through freights

Rob,

Your suggestions come at an opportune time. A while back you suggested that I "play" with the plan and think about how the actual operation of the layout would take place. That wasn't too hard to do when it came to the local freights that would service the industries on the layout.

However, I was wrestling with how the through freights would actually work. My initial idea was to have a couple of the through freights do just that...pass through the layout on the main to provide mainline traffic without stopping at the yard. That would provide the opportunity for meets to occur at the sidings between that through freight and other through freights or local freight trains. Such through freights wouldn't bog the yard down either.

The other through freights I planned would not terminate at the yard. Since I'm hoping to run trains of 30-35 cars for these through freights, the size of my yard wouldn't be able to handle that kind of incoming traffic in addition to the traffic from the local freights. So what I envisioned were through freights that would stop at the yard siding and drop cuts of cars off, as well as pick up cuts of cars bound for various "off layout" locations. Coal loads from the mines on my layout would go either on a westbound through freight headed for an off-layout coal prep plant, or eastbound headed toward an off layout port location. That would enable me to have loaded and empty hoppers traveling in both directions.

Your recent comments however have provided me with a lot of ideas for through freight operation that I hadn't even thought of. You've been a big help in so many ways for my future layout plans. So thanks! I've started tearing the old layout down now, and can hardly wait to begin the new construction!

Paul, your welcome. Paul,

Paul, your welcome.

Paul, your last yard and version of the plan looked real good. The various things I talked about in the use of the yard were things I read about from others either on the web or in books and were based on prototype practices. It would be nice to have more and longer yard tracks but we all have space limitations. I would suggest you follow some advice of Tony Koester that I read in one of his bygone monthly commentaries. Yard when you must and stage when you can. As long as you keep your main yard mostly empty you can double the occasional long train into it. Then that train must be classified and then dispatched. By doing things in this fashion you will keep the yard less than 1/2 full and store your trains in staging. As the mainline train leaves one of the locals can come in and be classified The next Mainline Train gets the cars going its way, and then the next mainline train gets the cars going in its direction.

You will be able to keep things going quite well. Also it would not be unreasonable to figure two tracks to each of your trains for the mainline because you are depicting a mountainous area in the West Virginia/Kentucky region and those areas are often hemmed in by mountains and rivers on either side of the tracks and the grades on the long axis keep the tracks short in the yards.

You mentioned being able to run a train on your computer to see how things work, run your mainline train make your stop and get it into the yard. Bring in one local and get about half of that train onto the mainline train and send it to staging. Bring in the next local and get it and the remaining cars classified. Then the next mainline train and get rid of everything going its way. By doing this you will stay fluid and focused. You can also send a mainline by the yard since it has no drops and is already at tonnage. I hope you keep posting as you build and then operate the layout as I would love to see it take shape.

I have been practicing for an operating session on the club layout. It was designed with very little in the way of operating in mind and appeared to be designed so as to have challenges so it was not to easy to get over the road. The folks designed it for 12 car trains! That is fine on a short line but hardly good for a double track layout. I left with a train of about 24 cars and did not pre block the train for the route, I doubt the new yard crew would grasp this concept initially. I have been at it for 1 hour and switched 22 cars. I am now at the coal mine and have replaced the club cars with my hoppers. There are issues with keeping mine spotted they roll very easily, the club cars act like they have the brakes set by comparison. I will post a run down on one of my blogs if you are interested you may read it there. My point with this is you will discover lots of things you might want to adjust here and there as you operate your track plan and the changes to the plan are easier than changes to the layout.

Bathroom Revisions

I don't know if I've ever read about this anywhere, but as you're planning a new layout track plan, I think one of the best things you can do is keep a copy of the plan in the bathroom. It's amazing how new ideas come as your staring at a track plan while...well no need for detail here! 

I've been doing just that, and that has proven to be some time well spent. Though the overall plan has stayed pretty much the same, I've made some refinements that have improved the plan even more. 

1) The track along the back of the main deck was proving very difficult when it came to scenic treatment, so that has been moved, as well as the former freight house spur. I also decided to change the freight house into a canning company. I figured a freight house would be too much like the nearby team track, and changing it to a canning plant let me have a little more variety in terms of the kind of cars that will be spotted at that industry. 

2) The yard ladders and caboose track were reworked, enabling me to increase the yard capacity by 5 cars. Not much, but every little bit helps. Engine pockets were also added to the end of the yard leads at both ends enabling me to use the yard leads as alternative arrival tracks if need be for incoming trains. 

3) I found that some of the crossovers from the mainline to the yard weren't really needed, so they were eliminated to keep the mainline as uncluttered as possible.  

4) Though I'm not showing it on this post, I've also revamped the bench work design. I had initially planned on using L-girder support for the main deck which I had on my current layout and liked very much. The problem with that however is that the L-girder takes up more room and would decrease the amount of clearance for working on the staging deck. So I went to a modified butt joint frame to keep the bench work as thin as possible. 

Well, enough said. Here's the newly revised main deck so you can see things for yourself.

Having made these changes I'm now in the process of working out the system of waybills for car forwarding that I will use when the layout is actually built. Once that's accomplished I'll run some trains again on the CAD program to simulate an actual operating session. As Rob suggested, I'll be trying to schedule trains in a sequence that will help keep the yard from becoming over filled, and the yardmasters happy! 

Thanks everyone for your continued interest!

Hey Paul, Nice expansion to

Hey Paul,

Nice expansion to get additional capacity in the yard but I would look at what cost it has incurred. Your higher level behind the main yard has become tight against the yard tracks. If the extra capacity is important for your plans or desires or both I would seriously consider increasing the depth of your bench work in the area around the yard by 2 inches just so some scenic separation can take place. It might be real difficult to scenic that area other wise. IF you loose 2 inches out of the aisle you can probably live with that in the area of blue field, and the area behind the team track could move back toward the corner a couple of inches with no harm done. At the Van Lear mine you might want to adjust your back drop to the rear a bit so you can expand the distance between it and the lower level tracks a bit.

Your idea of having a copy in the reading room is a good one. You have really drawn up a nice track plan with your software. Everytime I see something that is so nicely drawn I keep saying to myself, "Self your going to have to get one of those programs that works with a MAC and start using it."

this is what I meant by too

this is what I meant by too much yard.

Youre whole yayout is nothing but a through yard with a few tacked on industries in a narrow back line, even if it is elevated.

You have several industries, but combined, they'll hold what, maybe 20-25 carloads, max.  Meanwhile, you have this HUGE yard that looks like it could hold 200 cars if completely full.  And there is pretty much no room for anything else!

You have a space to make Mammoth trains, but nowhere for them to go.

the rest of the story...

Sqrl... That is one deck of three. You can see the rest of it here:

N&W Pokey District, Sub 1 3/4 in the Trackplan Database Thread...
http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/track-plan-database?page=16#comment-159829

And it is important to note, some people enjoy the roll of yardmaster and their layout consists of 2 staging yards with a large on stage yard in between! Nuthin but yard after yard of ... wait for it... 'yard'.

Cheers!

oops

my mistake then. I was picturing the helix running up JUST to that small line of against-the-backdrop industries.

Reply

Rob,

When I responded to your 2nd to last comment I got my threads confused and thought I was posting to my layout blog "N&W Pokey District, Sub 1 3/4 Goodbye". Since this post started off as a discussion on yard capacity, and we're starting to get away from that into scenic issues now, I'm going to paste your comments from here into that other layout blog and respond to your comments there if you don't mind. Thanks!

Big Yard

Sqrl,

Though the yard might look large, it's actual capacity is only 86 50' cars. That's just about equal to the amount of cars the industries on the layout can store. Using Joe's formulas would actually lead to an even bigger yard that's required, however due to space constraints I wasn't able to go that large. So I tried to eek out as many cars in the space available as I could. 

I guess I'm just too used to

I guess I'm just too used to N-scale