What IS driving them away is being attacked for wanting to just have fun with the hobby...

Nobody's attacking anybody for wanting to have fun.  What is happening is the all-too-frequent assumption that hobbyists who enjoy operations AREN'T prioritizing fun.  Saying operations isn't fun due to rules or whatever is a lot like saying poker or video games or golf can't be fun because they also involve rules.  Those of us who like ops are trying to say how much fun we're having, and we're getting told over and over what we're doing isn't fun at all.  These accusations usually come either from people who have never operated, or if they've done so it's been with a bunch of jerks with the wrong priorities (and groups like that do exist).

If you're idea of a good time means you avoid ops, fine.  If it is, why should anybody tell you otherwise?

Here's a photo from an op session I held last year for out of town guests.  The pig train on the mainline met an inferior eastbound that took the siding.  I designed the layout, built the benchwork, laid the track, installed DCC, built the scene... and here I saw all the work come together as two crews executed a meet perfectly using their timetables and orders.  There were huge grins on the faces of all involved.

Joe A: If someone is driven away from the hobby over one of my op sessions, I'm not sure what they'd turn to that'd be less stressful.

I'll second that.  I operated at Joe's once and will attest to the zero stress environment.  Plus I made new friends and had some good Mexican food at the lunch break.  Can't beat that.

I do this merely to point out where things went wrong, not to blame anyone or call anyone down, but just to point out how these often get "off the rails" (pardon the pun).  It started with this comment:

As in "Model Railroad Hobbyist". A diversion. Fun. Functional Art. Yes, even Escapism. This fascination about pretending that you are actually running a railroad (otherwise known as a really stressful JOB) has absolutely no draw for me. For those that like to pretend they are running a railroad that is fine, but for me personally I prefer real paychecks when I have to deal with timelines and stress while walking around with a clipboard yelling at people on a telephone because they are behind schedule. That is what I do for a living. I intend to keep modeling a railroad in the realm of fun, not work, thank you very much. The moment my layout is no longer fun, it will be bashed into kindlesticks.

Now, I'm sure it wasn't intended as such, but if we break down that statement, what the message does is paint a stereotypical picture of operations sessions that, while they do exist, are certainly not the norm and not what most people experience.  It draws the conclusions that all operations are stressful and not fun, which is the exact opposite of what many experience.  

This is naturally going to draw the ire of those with opposite experiences and make them chime in, most often defensively, which will almost certainly escalate at some point.  These response, then, are interpreted by the OP that they are being attacked, when in fact, it was the initial post that others felt was the original attack.  The strong language and the tone comes across as angry and accusatory of those that operate, rather than accepting of the practice, as one of the sentences does try to say. 

For the message I believe was intended, an alternative might simply have been:

I understand there are a lot of people that enjoy operations, but for me, its just not enjoyable or something I have interest in, so I pay no attention to operations articles.

Simple, to the point, and doesn't infer that operations is bad that would escalate into a flame war, which happens all too often, both here and other places (anyone look at the Digitrax Yahoo group lately?).  Again, I don't think the intent was to start a flame war, I just want to point out how words matter.  Really think about the language you use when you post and how it can be taken.  

One of the side effects of this is people stop reading your posts.  For those that tend to use strong language and rail against certain ideals, the message is lost on other subjects too.  People do start to ignore your posts (I know there are a handful of people whose posts I don't bother to read most often because they are generally negative in tone).  Its unfortunate, because in some cases, I know I'm missing something good from these individuals.  Lots of people have great stuff to offer and it would be a shame for people to not read their posts because they don't understand how their general tone comes across.  Here is a great rule of thumb: never post anything you wouldn't say to your grandmother.

Again, I apologize for singling out one post, but I simply want to demonstrate the power of words and the consequences.  There are some excellent posts by this individual here and I hope that they don't get lost by some because of a few posts like this that I don't believe were intended to be negative but unfortunately do come across that way to many folks.

... just sayin'.

I am not anti-operations. I personally see no fun there, but for those that do that is fine. The thing that does bother me is that those who are the primary drivers of this hobby have decided that is the only way to "have fun". These same people lament over and over about how the hobby is dying. Why is it dying? Because there are no new people coming in, and the old generation is literally dying off. Why are no new people coming in? Most would argue that most of this is because there are so many other options for a pastime these days. That does not account for all of it though. Those that do develop an interest in modeling trains at an early age are likely to join online forums. When they do they will be confronted by a bunch of old guys who insist that how you have fun with this hobby is to pretend that you are running a real railroad. Timetables, schedules, basically WORK. I can imagine trying to suggest to some  of the young boys that I know about joining into an "operating session". It would go something like this: "Hey, me and a bunch of other old guys are going to run some railroad ops tonight. We will all have clipboards and have to do our part to make sure that everything gets delivered on time. You interested?" Kid: Uhhhh, well I guess maybe. How much are you going to pay me???" Seriously.

It is my opinion that taking the fun out of MRRing and making it into a job is the final nail in the coffin to this hobby. I put this type of activity right up there with the new fascination about watching other people work on TV. Are people's lives becoming so bereft of anything interesting that they actually want to watch some guy drive truck in their free time? Or pretend that they are working for a railroad? Cmon...

When I started getting interested in the hobby some months ago and started bumping around ideas for a layout, I repeatedly had people tell me that a back and forth "switching layout" was the way to go. If I built a layout where a train can actually run continuously that I would "not have any fun". Literally. That is the biggest bunch of bunk I have heard in quite some time. I said it before and I will say it again: To me MRRing is functional art.  A creative and artistic endeavor, along with an engineering challenge. I also enjoy researching the history and technology to fashion my Lillipution world. This along with the fact that my dad started building a layout about a year ago, so it gives me something to chat about with him.

In the past week I actually took a few switches and a pile of snap track and tossed together just for grins a "switching layout" on my benchwork and called the wife into the room to show her what all of the "top guys in the hobby" think you should do with a layout to have fun. I had several spurs and could go back and forth but not run in a loop, and of course could not turn around. I dragged a couple cars from one spur over to the other, pushing them in or I would be trapped of course, and then went to another spur and did the same. Delivered imaginary cargo to my imaginary industries. After doing this 4 or 5 times she says" Thats IT? Oh my god, This is REALLY what they are talking about with a switching layout!?!? What is wrong with these guys?" I can guarantee you that about 999 / 1,000 teenage boys are going to say exactly the same thing. I only recently learned about Malcom Furlow, although I do remember seeing him in some books in my few forays into hobby shops in the past couple of decades. I think he hit the nail on the head when he said (sic)"The ops guys are going to kill this hobby by taking all of the FUN out of it". Coming from someone who probably single handedly got more young folks interested in MRRing than anybody else ever, I think he knows what he is talking about, and I agree with him.

I am not anti-operations. I personally see no fun there, but for those that do that is fine. The thing that does bother me is that those who are the primary drivers of this hobby have decided that is the only way to "have fun". These same people lament over and over about how the hobby is dying.

Several thoughts come to mind in reading this.

First, as the publisher of what is arguably becoming the number 2 publication in the hobby as to audience size, I would guess that puts me into the category of "primary driver" of the hobby, or at least we could say I qualify as a "hobby industry insider". So here's what I know ...

First, I know that of all the topics we can publish or do videos about, one of the least popular is operations. Since I know this based on actual survey numbers and from conversations with those in the hobby who are in a position to know, I don't for a moment think operations is the only way to have fun.

This said, I've also run trains on a lot of layouts in both serious op sessions and just to be railfanning. My own experience is that serious ops is a total blast, and for me has become the reason I do everything else in the hobby. But as the publisher of a major hobby magazine who also knows that ops is one of the lesser subjects as to popularity, I never just assume everyone is into serious ops. In fact, most are not into serious ops.

Regarding the hobby dying, I have a clinic I will be doing in Atlanta that takes a look at some hard numbers around this subject. I've studied this topic from a lot of different angles and I think I can say (and back it up with numbers, not just opinion) that the hobby is NOT dying. In fact my numbers and projections indicate the hobby has gone through a major slump from the mid 1980s into the 2000's but that we're poised for the greatest upsurge in the hobby over the next decade since the trainsets were a fad toy in the 1950s and 60s.

Is the hobby changing? You bet. Is it dying? Not likely if my research numbers are anywhere in the ballpark of reality.

So as a hobby "driver" I don't fit on either count. I don't think operations is a broadly popular topic and I also don't think the hobby is dying - and I believe I can prove it with some hard numbers. If you want to know more, come to my clinic in Atlanta!

I stand corrected.

In the past week I actually took a few switches and a pile of snap track and tossed together just for grins a "switching layout" on my benchwork and called the wife into the room to show her what all of the "top guys in the hobby" think you should do with a layout to have fun.

If I qualify as a "top guy" in the hobby who thinks serious ops is fun, then this example does not begin to cover the full breadth of serious ops. And the details about getting a loco stuck behind a car in a spur does not do a very good job of showing the distinctives of facing point / trailing point spurs and how they actually work.

Just like those who like ops tend to lump everyone who is not into ops into one simplistic grouping, be careful you aren't committing the same fallacy the other direction by trying to say this is all serious ops is about.

I'm okay with serious model railroaders who aren't into serious ops at all - in fact the hobby statistics point to this as fact. That said, there are more than a few modelers who also love serious ops and they do it in such a way that it's a total blast, not some kind of brow-beating ordeal.

Both camps could stand to bury the hatchet and seek to understand each other more, I think. I'm certainly in favor of giving both camps equal consideration.

I have heard from a few sources that the numbers of people in the MRR hobby are up some lately too. But are these NEW people to  the hobby? Not from what I can see. What I see on these forums is guys who were into MRRing as a kid 30-40 years ago and are now getting back into it as they retire or just have some spare time and cash. I am part of that crowd. My guess would be that this trend will continue for some years until all of the kids of the 60's and 70's are retired. But then what? The early 80s were pretty good as far as attracting newcomers (kids) although not so much as the 70's when every boy I knew my age had a trainset. ALL of them. After that it has taken a nosedive. Since the late 80's the kids are simply not getting into MRRing, or modeling in general, with the exception of R/C. After bumping around on a few MRR forums for some months now I can probably count all of the people who post who are under 30 on one hand. Compared to the hundreds who are 50+ that is a pretty sharp dropoff. One thing all kids do these days is get online. If they were getting into MRRing, you would see them in MRR forums in droves, and they simply are not here. So yes, I agree that MRRing is presently enjoying a mild boost in popularity, but in my opinion it is the bounce of a dead cat. When the Boomers are all retired here in the next ten years, those that are behind them do not have the childhood connection with MRRing that we all have. When I go to HobbyBench here in Phoenix, I have never a single time seen a kid near the trains. All you see there is maybe a couple of old codgers. Any kids are over by the R/C, and that is very few. I have been to An Affair With Trains here, it is the closest thing to my house, and it is of course all train gear. I am 47 and I am certain that I am the youngest person I have ever seen in that store in the ten times I have been there.

I do have some experience in the hobby business, although not MRRing. When I was about 12 my mother bought the local hobbyshop. She was a very talented multi-media artist. The first thing she did was to get rid of the huge commercial Slot Car Track, and then proceeded to get rid of all of the modeling gear altogether. I was devastated of course. Her reasoning was correct though. There was a Ben Franklins Dime Store directly across the street, and they were serious competition, the model section was huge, although the only trains they had were sets I think. She decided to concentrate on what she knew, which was Art, and where the real money is which is Crafts. To her the modeling section only attracted hoodlums and lookie loos. The one thing most kids had in common (at least back then in that place) was that they had NO money. By reducing the store to Arts & Crafts, the clientele became mature, mostly housewives. They had money and were not prone to shoplifting. With all of the space she freed up, she put in a classroom in the back. THAT was where the money came from, and is the reason I am making this rather long comment.

Hobbies tend to all be the same from the retailers point of view. People do the same thing. They get interested in something, they then buy the supplies and maybe take some classes to increase their skills. Once that initial purchasing boom is over they generally drift off to some other hobby, or at the very least do not buy as much as when they started out. I am a good example of this, I will probably spend ~$500 or so this year getting my layout together, and after that? Probably not much if anything. My dad is exactly the same. When he gets his layout done I doubt he will be plopping down more than a few bucks now and then on the hobby. Hobbies rely on new people. That is where the classroom came in. By advertising and drawing new people into Art and Craft classes, you continuously get a stream of newcomers. They all need the paints and brush sets and the Amish figures or Geese or whatever the fad is to paint on that particular day. Supplying those wooden items is how I got my start in Woodworking, by the way. When the market for some particular Craft had been saturated, she wood push a new one, and keep the new people coming in. No newcomers = no profits. The point of all of this is that I don't see any NEW people coming into the MRR hobby. Once this current wave of returnees to the MRR hobby (the dead cat bounce) passes by in the next decade or so, then what? There are no newcomers.

My studies on hobby growth look at all the ways kids learn about the hobby, population size of the various generations, and look at well-known hobby demographics. I include the fact we're losing hobby shops left and right, the fact printed magazines circulation is shrinking, and I also include the notion that I believe model trains were a fad toy in the 1950s and 60s, but they are not a fad toy now.

Taking all this into consideration, and using studies on things like Google Trends to see how much interest there is among the general public in searching for model train information, I have put together a projection of hobby interest going back to 1935 and going forward to 2050.

The resulting graph is interesting. It shows a peak in the 50s and 60s, slumping down in the 70s and 80s, with a slight resurgence in the mid 1980s to early 90s. Then a downward slide again until about 2007 or so, with a slight increase that gathers steam in the latter part of this decade and peaks in another 10-15 years at higher levels than ever in history, and then drops off to slump levels of the mid 70s - late 90s again by about 2035 or so, and then bumps along at these lower levels toward 2050. Beyond that it's hard to predict, but my chart seems to predict what we saw in the hobby through the last half of the 20th century, and it predicts we're about to leave the slump times and reach a new golden era in the hobby as the Baby Boomers all reach retirement age.

I also look at the Gen-Xers (generation after the Baby Boomers) and how they're much smaller, and how that affects things. Finally I look at the Millennials (the generation after the Gen-Xers), how they're learning about trains, and what they're likely to do given that they're LARGER than the Boomers and given that model trains are no longer a fad toy like they were in the 1960s and 70s. I also look at Google Trends, to see what the general public is searching for regarding trains and looking to see if the trends are up or down.

Long story short, if my analysis is correct, then we're about to enter a golden era in the hobby over the next 20 years, with interest higher than ever.

The thing that does bother me is that those who are the primary drivers of this hobby have decided that is the only way to "have fun".

Said no hobbyist with a grip, ever.  Therein lies the huge perception gap.  One one side of this debate are those who enjoy operations as ONE way to have fun with our hobby, and this group is admittedly in the minority.  On the other side are a vocal few who insist that not only is operation NOT fun, but that operators aren't happy unless we're shoving our vision down everyone else's throats.  Read through this thread and see if any ops enthusiast has suggested people who don't enjoy ops are somehow wrong.  We are merely engaged in a vigorous defense that what we say is fun actually is for us.  Nobody has to agree.

It is my opinion that taking the fun out of MRRing and making it into a job is the final nail in the coffin to this hobby.

Maybe so.  However, well executed operation IS NOT A JOB.  It's more of a role-playing game.  Millions of people of all ages like those, and many are much more serios and job-like than an op session.

To me MRRing is functional art.  A creative and artistic endeavor, along with an engineering challenge. I also enjoy researching the history and technology to fashion my Lillipution world.

Sure it is.  The same thing is true for the ops people.  We do everything you like too.

This is the Raft River branch on my layout.  I had great fun with the creative/artistic execution of this scene.  I researched engineering practices to scratchbuild trestles, and to model cuts and fills.  I looked through photos for coloring the water in the creek.  I liked carving and coloring rocks, building vegetation and so on.  I also detailed and painted a couple of the cars.  Most of the time this is what I do - build stuff and do research here and there.  If I stopped there, we would probably be in agreement about what there is to like about our hobby.

However, this train is a turnaround local job.  It originates at Junction City yard, runs out to the connection with the branch at Cedar, then follows the branch to Raft River where it will switch some industries before running around its train and heading home.  On the way it negotiates a few scale miles of scenes like this one.  I can watch the train reflecting off the water, see the headlight emerge from the darkness of some tunnels, relive some railfan memories, and encounter a few friends out there on the line running other trains.

This additional step takes everything you admit you like about model railroading, and merely adds one more layer on top of it.  If that layer has no appeal for you, so what?  Just don't add it to your layout.  Is that train in the photo above an example of what you like too, or an example of what will kill the hobby?  Incidentally, last session the crew of the Raft River turn was a teenager.  He'll be back for the session today.

This additional step takes everything you admit you like about model railroading, and merely adds one more layer on top of it.  If that layer has no appeal for you, so what?  Just don't add it to your layout.  Is that train in the photo above an example of what you like too, or an example of what will kill the hobby?  Incidentally, last session the crew of the Raft River turn was a teenager.  He'll be back for the session today.

That's been my experience as well. There are several under-40 among my operating crew, one of which is a prototype railroader. As if he couldn't get enough of it at work, he also needs to run models seriously as well?

As I said, be careful of the broad brush application to serious prototype ops. At best it's a caricature, and at worst it's just plain invalid.

I promise not to use the broad brush on non-ops folks if you promise to not use it on the serious-ops-are-fun crowd.

Fun is in the eyes of the beholder! As a new model railroader I was satisfied to rail fan and watch the trains go round and round. After awhile I enjoyed railfanning less and got into oerations on my own RR. I mixed the two and sometimes would railfan and other times operate - both solo on my layout and with others.

Fast forward to my move to Florida where I joined the Central Florida Railroad Modelers where we have a BOSS layout. I love the Saturday night "open" sessions where I can run round and round or do a "mini ops" session on my own. Once a month we have a formal ops session complete with a dispatcher and radios. The best of both for me!

When it comes down to it I really don't care what others say what is or is not fun, or what or what not model railroading should be when it comes to my decision to play - which for me is what this really is...... Fun!