Love it...

I love this new feature! Already looking forward to another installment. 

What would be really, really cool is if the puzzles were drawn up in XTrkCAD and included so we could actually do the moves instead of just imagining them. THAT would be off the charts cool. 

Thanks for this, very interesting stuff. I'd give it six stars if I could. 

Randy

"What would be really, really

or get some unitrack or snap track and build the puzzle on the floor or table? .......DaveB 

Yeah...no

Taking the time to drag out a bunch of track and cars, trying to find somewhere to set it all up, sitting on the floor while doing it, or just clicking a link to download and using my mouse to move the cars around and be doing the switching almost instantly from my comfy chair with a drink in one hand. Hmmm, tough choice. 

Randy 

File

I drew it up in XTrkCAD, but I don't know how to get that file to here. If anybody wants it and knows how to get it here, let me know. 

Randy

"tough choice."     I guess

I guess it depends on whether you like to play with trains or play computer games? I do these little switching games all the time on my partially built layouts so I prefer the physical models approach.....DaveB

This may work...

I uploaded the file to  Google Drive. Of course, you'll have to have XTrkCAD to use this, but that's a free download. The dimensions aren't exactly correct, but it works for at least the first puzzle, haven't tried it with the second puzzle yet. 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6Vc7IFJmnGjQjczd0c3bTNWUW8/view?usp=sharing

Randy

I like them just the way they

I like them just the way they are. I did not see a list that spells out exactly what a move is so I considered it as throwing a switch, stopping a locomotive, uncoupling or coupling. Since I also counted nineteen moves I am thinking I must have done it correctly. I have always enjoyed these types of things and thought this was well done. I used a two person crew for this one as their was no caboose. It would have been easier with three and with the addition of the caboose it could have been back dated to an earlier era.

I think you guys are really onto something with these and hope this becomes a regular feature from now on. Excellent job Greg Baker and thanks for sharing your experiences with us, your insights will be very beneficial to all of us.

Do folks do these kind of

Do folks do these kind of puzzle switching games like the do cross word puzzles or sudoku?

I have never really understood the interest in things like the time saver.

As far as I understand the prototype did everything they could to minimize the complexity and time of switching but these kind of puzzles are the exact opposite.  Don't get me wrong if that is what you enjoy then go for it.  But I just don't get it.  Then again I didn't get the Rubics cube either.

-Doug M

Not really a puzzle...

I  don't see this as a "puzzle" as much as I do a "switching scenario". This is a prototype track arrangement that the real railroad had to switch. Figuring out how to do it in the most efficient way possible is what railroading is all about. These kinds of things are why I am a model railroader. If it weren't for switching scenarios like this on model railroads, I would have zero interest. The time saver is a contrived set up that was never intended to duplicate a prototype arrangement and is a puzzle for the sake of being a puzzle, which I don't really like. 

Randy

Problem #2

The only thing I did a little differently from the solution was that I dropped the hazardous car just past the Hampel switch on the main, then spotted the Hampel car, then pushed the hazardous car to the end of the spur. The solution pushes the hazardous car to the end of the spur, then comes back to spot the Hampel car. Very cool little switching job. I am already looking forward to the next one. 

Keep 'em coming!  

Randy

Trainz version

I spent a few minutes to throw this together in Auran's Trainz simulator. It might be fun to add all of the examples from the articles series. I didn't spend a lot of time putting it together, The two trees inside of the passing siding mark the length of 4 cars. gs

How Do They Do It?

How would this switching problem be planned by the real railroad? Does someone create a switch list that would also detail which tracks to use for temporary storage? If so, who would do this? Is a diagram used in some way?

It looks like the engineer would have to know in advance the total length of the cars to be moved and the length of the tracks for temporary storage.

In other words, are step-by-step instructions created before the train ever starts the day? I would really like to see a detailed discussion. Was there ever an article in Trains magazine, possibly?

Thanks in advance, Mike.

"How would this switching

by routines created over time by the experienced crews. Real railroads do the same moves over and over so they soon learn what works. In the old days with a full crew working with the precision of a soccer team they'd often drop cars and do other things that they can't today so the solution would likely be faster and more elegant....DaveB 

Switching

No.  They don't do a detailed list.  All they have is a list that says what cars to pick up and what cars to put where by station.  The crew (conductor) has to figure out all the intermediate moves..

Another model railroad thought.  It would be the conductor and he would have to know how long the siding and the tracks are, but a lot of the model switching puzzles restrict the length of the main track on either end and have the track lengths down to an exact car length.  For all practical purposes the amount of track on either end of the siding is unlimited.   You also have to remember tha in most cases the crew that does the switching has one or more persons on the crew who has switched this place before maybe even 4 or 5 times a week for years.  Its probably not their first rodeo.  Railroads tend to try and eliminate switching puzzles, model railroads tend to encourage them.

A real crew works by what is quickest and easiest, not necessarily what is the fewest moves.  A crew might work all the trailing point switches going east, then work all the facing point switches, which are now trailing point switches going west later that day or maybe even the next day. 

Or....

They might work all switches in both direction on one leg of the trip so there is no work on the return trip back the other way. 

One local crew (primarily the engineer) kept giving the trainmaster a hard time.  Their normal practice was to work all the industries, facing and trailing, on the southward trip on day 1 and then run for the roses on the northward trip back home on day 2.  The trainmaster made them reverse it and run straight to the far end on day 1 and then work everything coming back home on day 2.  After a week or so of that, the offending crew members bid on other jobs and the replacements, being better at playing well with others, were able to go back to switching the way they wanted.

No there is not a detailed written plan.  There are maps of tracks and instructions about where derails are, how long tracks are, what crossing not to block and that type of stuff and the train crew will in most cases (era dependent) have a discussion of what they are going to do in what order (job briefing) but its not in the order of detail you are implying.

I have generally found that the default best wat to do industry switching, especially if you have never switched there before, is to switch by direction.  There are only two types of spurs, trailing point and facing point.  Switch all the trailing point spurs, then run around the spot cars fo rhe facing point spurs and work all the facing point spurs.  I'm sure that somebody can figure out some trick stuff to do things with fewer moves but the trailing point-facing point routine pretty much works every time and really low hassle.

Having actually switched this

Having actually switched this location when working for the K&O,without looking at Greg's information I seem to recall that the runaround track held more than enough cars 12-18 to make that move smoothly. So it was a simple matter of pulling the cars in from the right, switching Star lumber first, then running around the Hampels and Star mtys to switch Hampel before putting everything together and pulling it back to the yard.

The key to easy and effecient switching was to line up the cars in the yard so that the Stars were on the head end and the Hampels on the rear. As far as switching it was one of the easiest switch moves to make.

Barry

Correct Classification/marshalling - Predictive Consist Fail?

Dear Barry,

Makes complete sense, and especially logical on a shortline or similar where the crew who will be doing the "local switching" later are the same guys/girls doing the pre-trip train-makeup marshalling in the yard now...
(IE have both means and opportunity to "pre-setup the dominos, ready to fall exactly in the order required").

...but what of larger RRs, where the "local crew" may have no-say over
"which car,
destined for which industry,
is placed in what position in the local's pre-departure train consist"?
(whether by default, by order-the-cars-were-received-from-interchange, or hazardous-handling rules?)

...or simply when the crew doing the "marshalling" is not the same crew called for the "local switching"?
(Comms and "help me to help you" co-operative fail)

Does the Local crew have any chance to "sort things to their preference" pre-trip,
or will they simply have to "grin and deal-with-it" on the fly?

Happy Modelling,
Aiming to reconcile Proto, Model, and Practical headspaces...
Prof Klyzlr

Experience and "Local Conditions Rules"

Dear Dave, Switching fans,

Agreed, there is rarely a perscribed "thou shalt..." switching sequence step-by-step manual for each site...

...however, there may well be "FOGCharts" and similar. Whether communicated verbally or actually scribbled down somewhere, local knowledge regarding efficient switching move techniques, "Real World" track capacities (as opposed to "by the book capacities"), radio and phone comms locations, Remote-Locomotive zones, and "If Situation A, reccomend doing Industry 2 first" type wisdom is invaluable to both the railroader and prototype-inspired modeller.

For example, I continually come back to Jerry Freadman's "FOGChart" guides for the Pac NW,
http://www.fogchart.com/

specifically the "Oregon City Switcher" FOGChart.
http://www.fogchart.com/Down/Yard/OC_Switcher.pdf

The chart gives  lot of useful info in a small space and easy-to-read/understand format.
- Track lengths/capacities
- SPINS industry/Track numbers
- Car spots/numbers (check "Holman" and "Canned Foods" on the 2nd page "Clackamas" chart!)
- Mainline runtimes between stations/refuges/passes
- derail locations
- capacity limits due to "do not foul grade crossing" and other not-obvious issues
etc etc etc

While we're at it, check out the Salem.Ore FOGchart.
http://www.fogchart.com/Down/Yard/Salem_SWR.pdf
/> I haven't yet, but am being called to compare Google-Maps imagery and track-capacities at "Brooks"...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

Hazmat next to loco except when...?

Greg,

Your solution shows the loco directly coupling to the loaded tanks to pull them and then use them as a handle to spot the empty tanks. Why doesn't the safety rule apply during switching? With not many more moves the loco could couple to the empties and use them as a handle to move the loaded tankers to the left end of the plant, then deliver the empties, and then pick up the lumber empties and continue in the same direction to connect to the loaded hazmat tanks to end up in the correct configuration for travel.

Does the rule apply all the time, or just when it's convenient?

DrJolS

Cover while switching

The rule applies when the rule says it applies.

There is no requirement by Federal law to maintain cover while switching except for Explosives 1.1 or 1.2.  That is the law and the rule and it applies all the time.

Haz-Mat Rules

I base my Haz-mat rules on the United States Hazardous Materials Instructions for Rail 2011 edition. The main component that applies to this is the Switching and Train Placement chart.

"Switching is defined as 'the operation of moving rail cars within a yard in order to place them in a train or on a classification, repair, or storage track.' Switching also includes making pickups and setouts at a customer's facility or interchange points. Switching does not include moving rail cars to or from a shipper's facility or industry track into or out of a yard."

So to answer your question, you are free to move them around all you want due to the nature of the Haz-mat in this area. Once you become a train, which means you will travel over a mile, or moving from customer to the yard, you will need to have them properly placed in the train.

Locals and switchers

The railroads I have been around usually have preblocked the locals by a yard switcher prior to departing. The way the trains are blocked are based on years of railroad experience and the suggestions of the crews. Many jobs have also been passed down to shortlines, who use the tried and try advice of the Class I carrier continue on how to switch customers.

Of course it is railroading, so sometimes conditions change or the work load changes, so the crew gathering up the cars may swap some cars around either in the yard or at the first opportunity to make things easier.

On a switching job I worked we gathered both cars out of the yard and also en route that another train had dropped off. We were given both specific cars to spot at specific customers, but also told things like "spot 14 hi Cap centerbeams at Weyerhauser."

Blocking

How a local is blocked depends a lot on where it originates and what crew builds the train.  If it is not the local crew and a bigger yard, there may be less detail blocking.  Crew agreements also prevail.  If the labor agreements require the locals to be built in station order then it will be in station order, regardless of how the crew wants it.

If the local crew builds the train they will build it the way they want.  If they have to dig cars out of storage tracks or rely on a list they get at the industry they won't waste much time preblocking since they don't know what cars or order of the cars until they get to the industry.

Often times we would take the

Often times we would take the cars out of a yard as a "dog's breakfast" (mixed up/screwed up) just to get out of the way of other crews/trains/railroads and then sort stuff the way we wanted at the first industry switched or a place away from other crews. It didn't take much room and often only only involved one or two switches to straighten out a mess.

I believe modelers sometimes think it takes a lot of track to line up a train but in reality it can be done with only a couple of tracks or even just one. The less complications the better and a smart conductor looks over his list to find groups of cars together where he can make effecient cuts and doubles to avoid less work and walking. I have worked with many conductors who were smart and knew how to line up cars with just a few moves and then there were others who couldn't figure out how get stuff done if they had all day.As an engineer you got to "enjoy" all types and often it was a test of patience since I could see where to make moves he didn't and it often delayed operations. But I always had to remind myself that he was "carrying the list" (in charge of switching) and it was my job to run the engine the best I could in response to his commands.

Barry

 The less complications the

As I said before the fewest number of moves is not necessarily the easiest way to do things.  Making 10 moves at one switch may be way faster and easier than making 5 moves that involve both ends of a siding.  If the industries are always straight pots and pulls, it might be possible to line up the train out of the yard.  If the work involves a storage track or respotting cars, lining stuff up before hand might be a waste of time.  Modelers have the advantage of the "helicopter" to find cars in tracks and where they are, crews have to, in many cases, pull the tracks to find the cars.  On the other hand the real crews have the advantage of practice, having switched the same or similar places many times before. That's where the smart conductor described above has the foresight to make a move now that will come in handy later.

The antithesis of that is the description of switching the last MR.  The local goes out of the yard with a block of cars on the "wrong" end of the train.  The new local crew decides to "correct" it, then finds out they cars were actually placed in the right spot for the work that had to be done.  Helpful hint:  If the regular crews or the instructions have a train blocked "oddly" (or there is some other "odd" requirement), ASK somebody why.If something is done that counters "normal" then there is a pretty good chance that there is a reason for it.

Almost every treatise on yard design will put a crossover from the yard lead to the main track right off the class track ladder so a train can go directly between the yard and the main track.  Except for Coady Yard near Baytown, TX.  The crossover is the "wrong direction".  When I questioned the trainmaster about the mistake in the way it was laid out, he said it was no mistake, it was intentional.  It was that way to prevent a crew from switching off the main through the crossover, minimizing teh derailment risk.  Since Coady Yard primarily handles chemicals, that's not a bad reason.

For a new or visiting crew on a model railroad, a well placed question or two can save gobs of moves and time.