Elephant eating one bite at a time

Too deep. 30" is a long reach. 30" as a maximum in isolated cases maybe. 24" much better maximum.

Lower deck more shallow than upper deck? Wasted space behind lower deck or upper deck will protrude well beyond lower. Either way not an ideal arrangement. Same deck depths or upper narrower than lower.

I don't even have benchwork built yet and I can tell you 36" feels narrow based on my valance work. 24" pinch points here and there OK but 24" as ideal width - nope, too narrow. Can't pass another operator.

Swallow, next bite

I think yards typically have much less ballast profile. Examine Tom Patterson's photos of his excellent yard.

Why not use Tortoise motors with Pecos? Pecos better looking switch than Atlas plus have option of insul or electro frog.

I agree that 30" is a bit of

I agree that 30" is a bit of a stretch for the average person, although it's not too bad when you're 6'2"!  I'll have to consider that other people will be operating on the layout at one point or another.  As far as the aisleways are concerned, I agree that 36" allows for 2 operators to work opposite one another with room to spare. Since I don't have a lot of room, I figured sacrificing a foot of aisle would grant me a few additional feet of track.

You brought up a good point where a bit of clarity is needed in my proposal:  I presumed the lower deck to be narrow  to allow for a hidden staging yard and a run-around track.  Both will put "miles" on the mainline run and allow for plenty of hidden staging ladders. This will be something I will have to readdress once I begin construction as I am not familiar with double-decked layouts.

Regarding Peco vs. Atlas - it's more of a cost vs. functionality thing.  I aim to manually throw most of my switches and will use as many Pecos as I can to facilitate that action.  Since Atlas are half the price, I planned to use them whenever a Tortoise was involved as the spring wire will apply that positive tension the Pecos already have.  In an ideal scenario, I want to use all Peco (yes, they look a heck of a lot better than their counterpart).

Thanks for the input so far - points well taken!

Turnouts

Have you thought about building your own turnouts with the Fast Tracks fixture.  Depending upon how many turnouts you need, it may actually be cheaper and the turnouts are fantastic operationally and in appearance.

Check out their website here on MRH.  They are one of the sponsors.

Ed

I'd be very careful about

I'd be very careful about those staging yards.  Sounds like they'll be hidden and pretty inaccessible - and Murphy says that's where the troubles that absolutely require access will be.....

re: Building Turnouts

I love the work Tim Warris has done (actually saw the Bronx Terminal at the 2009 NMRA convention here in Hartford).  The guy is crazy - in the nicest, totally envious, totally complimentary sense of the word.  And even I could probably build some great turnouts using his stuff.  But the jig cost is prohibitive unless you're doing the layout with only one or two frog sizes.

What he needs to do (Tim - please be Googling for mention of your name) is *rent* some of the jigs - perhaps to anyone who's bought at least one?  

Bingo!

That is exactly why I went the store bought route. I would have needed quite a few jigs and once the bulk of track work is done what do I do with them? The turnouts would have been nice to have but the return on investment for the jigs was upside down.

Several Thoughts

John-

I applaud your efforts to get everything planned out before you start construction. It will save you a tremendous amount of time, money and frustration in the long run. There's a lot of good advice among all the posts on this forum about layout construction and I'm sure they will be helpful to you.

Several thoughts so far. Pay careful attention to Alan's advise regarding isle width. On a previous layout I had a small aisle that was 24' in width and it was a constant source of frustration. And I never got to operating the layout! Think in terms of construction: swinging boards around, hanging valences, finding places for a small portable workbench, etc. The additional track won't be worth the headaches of narrow aisle width.

And listen to Mike's comments about staging. I have a hidden staging track consisting of 6 tracks that I no longer use. In addition to being hidden, the only way to get to it is through Styrofoam lift-outs that are covered with scenery. Needless to say, getting to a derailment in there (oh wait, I made sure the track was bullet-proof before I covered it up...) is a real pain and cleaning the track- well, you get the point,. Make sure that any hidden staging is easily accessible.

Good luck with your planning!

Tom Patterson

That is exactly why I went

Sell 'em to me at a fraction of what they cost you?  I can wait....

Too late now

Pile of switches

This is why I came to the experts!

Ahhh staging. . .  I've been thinking a lot about staging this afternoon.  Taking a bit of Tom and Mike's advice will serve me well:  It would be better to place the staging in an area that is either completely open access on the lower level or hidden in such a way on the upper level that I can "easily" access it in the inevitable event of a derail. The layout I've envisioned for the space will run around three walls and wrap around a peninsula using a scenic divider to effectively double the space.  The lower level of this peninsula might be a perfect location for an open, double-ended staging yard.  Although it will detract from the lower level operationally, it would be a more feasible solution than what I had initially envisioned.  Likewise, I could place staging on the outside of the peninsula on the upper level.  I'll lose that extra bit of mainline run but could also relieve some operational headaches (i.e. having to sprint back around the peninsula to catch up with a train!)

What are your thoughts on these simple revisions?  

Also, what are some of your comments on the railroad, itself?  Am I at least attaining a somewhat realistic level for a New England regional?

Keep the comments coming and thanks!

-John

A yard is a yard is a yard (minus a lead)

There is no reason why a staging yard can't be sceniced just like the rest of the layout. No need to hide it. Operationally it is "off layout", visually it can be "on layout".

Pile of switches I forgot

I forgot to mention the second condition:  You have to switch to N scale.... Look at the bright side, though.... It'll make Buck and Loretta (particularly Loretta) even more "impressive" than they already are....

Thoughts...

If you are 6'2" and lanky, 30" depths might be possible, but not great, IMO.  Keeping the layout level around hip level would help, but it's not as good for viewing angle.

If you are 6'2" and lanky, 24" aisles might be OK as long as operators do not have to pass one another, but only because your space is limited.  I would try for 30" minimum aisle width wherever you can get it.

If you are 6'2 and large framed or sporting any "extra wheels" around the middle (like me), 24" aisles could be difficult and a 30" depth, pretty well impossible without mucking with scenery near the edge while leaning over.

Atlas turnouts have always been known for needing some amount of tweaking to be reliable.  Perhaps that has changed?  I decided to go with Joe Fugate's poor mans Jig built turnouts.  That method reduces the Fast Track jig expense considerably and yields rock solid, soldered, smoothly operating,  detailed, in spec. turnouts.  Good soldering skills are a must however so if not already experienced and equipped, you would have to get some equipment, supplies and practice before starting your first turnout.

Good luck!

Aisle widths

I have been working on the planning stages (as most on here know) and I did a mock up this past weekend on the upper deck and lower deck as well as the peninsula. I had planned (operative word "had) on going with 24" wide aisles. Not now, minimum will be "30. I reduced the center peninsula from 58" wide to 52" wide and the lower decks along both walls to 26", giving me an extra 14" total inches divided by two aisles (so I went from 24" to 31") and its a huge improvement. I have one area about 26" but I may enhance the lower deck more and make it 22" deep so the aisle stays a consistent 30"

Don't be afraid to build cheap mock up using cardboard or what have ya, numbers and drawings on paper are only so good, I like to get a real sense of what I am dealing with, hence my mock ups.

One other thing I discovered during my mock ups, the lolly column  ended up right in the middle of my yard at Hagerstown, now I have to move the whole yard or start on the other side of the room. Glad I discovered this early in the process, would have been a huge source of frustration.

Just my $.02 worth,

On staging....

It's also possible to place the staging *below* the lower level.  If you aren't going to be scenicking it and can pre-stage (before a session, outside the staging area), you really don't need a lot of height clearance.  It may not be ideal, but it can be done.  This is certainly an option under the helix.  Still, keep enough vertical clearance to deal with any "oopses". 

But, at this point, I'd suggest you set the needs and druthers to indicate that you'll need staging, rather than include the space (either accessible or inaccessible) in your other requirements.  It keeps the mind focused on what is important to you, and leaves figuring out how to accomplish it (or decide it wasn't as important as you first thought) when  the givens and druthers meet the trade-offs and abandoneds stage of design....

Fast Tracks Turnouts

My layout is small and therefore the cost of buying a lot of jigs and tools was prohibitive. There are however some excellent sources on Ebay of folks using these jigs to build custom turnouts at prices that are the same or even less than commercial turnouts. I've recently purchased several of them and they are BEAUTIFUL! The only drawback is that you sometimes end up waiting a few weeks for the turnouts to arrive.

As for Johnny's future railroad plans. I can only agree with the suggestions that 24" is tight. I have that space on a spot on my layout and operators passing each other is VERY inconvenient. Luckily, I seldom have more than 2 folks running trains on my smaller layout. I would make 36" as my minimum for sure.

I am 6'4" and have double

I am 6'4" and have double deck layout in 16ft 4" x 14 ft layout  30" max width decks and 14" deck separation.The top deck at just under my chin height.I think 30" aisles are still a little tight but I have gone with it to get 30" radius curves and allow for some edging out side the single track mainline  60" dia  + 3 width of train and clearance +4 to edge of track .I have one loop that is 65" total width same as the helix, but it is hidden inside the faciaI thought of going back to 26"r but those walthers coaches don't like it so stayed with 30r to do this I narrowed one wall to 24" wide deck.I put my yard on the bottom deck along the longest wall and works for me.The yard operator moves into a niche so we can pass if we have to but when operating we usually stay where we are and pass trains from one cab to another. 

Planning Considerations

John;

Heed every ones warning about aisle width even 30" is tight. Consider raising your lower level to 38 or 40" (not an ideal height for a single level railroad But,) and make it your 'Primary' layout platform. A 2 deck RR will allow for a second deck around 60" and should be narrower, as it is "average person" nose height the narrower deck allows for more detail in less space and the lower deck is less obstructed (view and access). The distance between decks is railhead to railhead and may seem excessive but you must give consideration to the depth of the benchwork & fascia on the upper deck. Your staging could reside on the upper level.

I would include a couple of photos to illustrate but I don't know  how to add them to this note.

Walter Griffin

NYC in Indiana

Adding a Photo

Walter,

There is a tutorial on adding photo's to your posts.

Adding a Photo

Room

I have done a lot of track planning in a similar space. If you are able to make the room even a foot or two wider you will find it much easier to keep good aisles in a spiral or "E" shaped design around the walls kind of thing.

2' edge, 4' middle. 2' edge = 8'.. and yes you can modulate, this is all worst case.. but at 14' you would be able to have 3' ailses in the narrower points and 4' in the wider sections.

Over and over I wish my space was a little wider but I don't often care if it was 20 vs 25 which is flexible in my basement.

Just something to think about if you get to make some choice in that regard..

Chris