kleaverjr

While waiting to expand the house sometime next year, I am putting the HO Layout on hold.  But I want to work on something, and I have been toying with the idea of modeling an actual stretch of a NYC/PC/Conrail Branchline in North Tonawanda, NY, along Erie Avenue. 

Why this specific location?  Because it is where I grew up when I was a baby and toddler.  As the local that served the few industries along the line (which btw still exists, but not as it was back in 1974-1977), my mom tells me I would hop onto the couch as a toddler to watch it from our window as the track was parallel to the street.  If I knew how to get a screen shot on one of the satellite web sites I would show you.  My home was right on the corner of Erie Avenue and Ellwood avenue.  The house is on the south side of Ellwood.

Anyways, I have been toying around with the idea of modeling this branch from the opposite side of Niagara Falls Blvd (during the time I lived there, there was a single track truss bridge that crossed over a creek, now it's just a couple of massive culverts when they did a road realignment so that Shawnee Rd crosses Niagara Falls Blvd at Erie Avenue to make Rt 425 straight.  Before you would have to turn right onto Niagara Falls Blvd and left at shawnee abotu 1/2 a mile down the road.  It helped reduce traffic congestion.  To do that they had to remove the bridge, and realign the track a bit as I recall. 

The Branch used to connect a yard along River Road in North Tonawanda to Lockport NY.  NYC ran trains along the entire line, as did PC.  Conrail took over during the time I lived there, but according to my parents they don't remeber seeing COnrail Blue locomotives when we lived there. So i'm not sure if any repainted units showed up by the time I left there.  The 1/2 the line was abandoned by the time CSX took over the line.  It now ends about 1 mile from the location I want to model.  There is a commercial industry of some kind that has a few box cars delivered every other day I think.  There is also a fuel-oil place (Theills) that recieves a tank car that i can see.  The track and switch is still there.  And I thought I saw a tank care under the "shed"

Here is the problem, very few if ANY of the original industries are there, especially on this end of the branch.  Further down there is still the former Durez chemical plant, and I hope to be able to take pictures of it to model the part along the branch accurately.  And I plan on including the homes on the south side, including my home.  I believe Theilles still has a delivery of fuel-oil (delivered by CSX).   I'm going to try to find a Sandborn map that hopefully isn't that old, though for 1974-1978, i'm not sure what other kind of map/track diagram is available to tell me what specifically existed there, and was served by rail.  There was some kind of pepsi facility to used to be served by rail (no longer).  So how do I find information for the not so distant past, but I seriously doubt there are photos available to give me enough information to model it accurately.  Not even in my own photo album are there any pictures as they are of hte house so the track is BEHIND the person who was takign the photos (mostly my mom).  I wasn't old enough to tell her, hey turn around a take a bunch of pictures alont the line wil you so I can use them 40+ years later!  :-D

I hope to model this in S Scale.  Whether this will be an actual model railroad layout I operate on will be a possiblity, but eventually these modules will end up in the Crew Lounge area.  If it is operated, I will have two staging tracks at each end to accommodate a local going each way.

So where do I start, to find information on this obscure line?

Ken L

 

Reply 0
BruceNscale

Historical Society

Hi Ken,

Many fallen flag railroads have a historical society.  You could also consult the state historical archives.  County libraries are also a good source.  They would have maps, photos and newpaper articles.

If your railroad is still active, they probably have an archive department.

Be prepared to spend some time searching and reimburse them for any copying expenses.

ignature.jpg 

Happy Modeling, Bruce

Reply 0
musgrovejb

Research

Agree with Bruce, historical societies will be your best bet.  Specifically, see if these societies have a copies of the railroads “industry spotting guides.”  that include the branch line.  These will contain maps, industry names, etc.

Other sources include :

1. Facebook fan groups for the railroad.  

2. Ebay - Timetables, documentation, photos, etc... for sale

3. Libraries - donated collections, maps, photos, documentation, etc.  

4. State, city, local archives especially for cities and towns that were on the line

5. Historical societies for towns along the line.  (Many times they will have documentation about the railroad that served their town) 

6. Local model railroad clubs in the area ( Many times these folks can be a wealth of knowledge of railroads that run or did run in the area) 

Good luck!

Joe

Modeling Missouri Pacific Railroad's Central Division, Fort Smith, Arkansas

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLENIMVXBDQCrKbhMvsed6kBC8p40GwtxQ

 

Reply 0
RSeiler

Try this...

I typed in Erie Avenue, North Tonawanda New York, and there are photos from 1972

https://www.historicaerials.com/viewer

Randy

Randy

Cincinnati West -  B&O/PC  Summer 1975

http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/17997

Reply 0
mgilger

Try this one also....

https://www.topozone.com/ohio/stark-oh/city/canal-fulton/

I was interested to know how the track used to look outside of Clinton Ohio. There used to be a Diamond some years ago, no longer there, and wanted to see what it looked like. 

Mark

M. Gilger - President and Chief Engineer MM&G

Reply 0
Prof_Klyzlr

Google Earth

Dear Ken,

FWIW, Google Earth (the standalone app, _not_ "GoogleMaps" as available online via Chrome)
https://www.google.com.au/earth/

can give you a B&W overhead image dating back to March 1993. It shows what looks like spurs and an industry SE of the River St yard, just sth of Robinson St. Looks like between 2002 and 05, some major works occurred, with lots of trackage removed...

I know it's not 70s imagery, but it might give some clues...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

Reply 0
Chuck P

Solid answers but too general

eBay can take a lifetime to find documents, libraries (especially small ones) have little railroad info - mostly clippings, not industry-specific answers. What is a "local archive"? "Hi, can you tell me where my local archive is?"

Historical societies for towns will have some items but again, mostly clippings. I'm a trustee on one in NY. We have a lot of info and a museum but not that kind of info. They may have photos of industries but not how they interact with the railroad.

Try here:

http://multimodalways.org/archives/rrs/CR/CR%20ZTS/CR%20ZTS.html

and post here:  http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewforum.php?f=128

I've been writing a book for a long time now in between my work and family life. I've interviewed over 1000 people and companies. After in-person interviews and railroad historical societies, the info drops off real fast.

Look for early Contail ZTS maps and Conrail Track Maintenance charts. You can pick up the 11x17 books at train shows for about $20.

Send me your email address and I'll share some of my charts.

 

HO - Western New York - 1987 era
"When your memories are greater than your dreams, joy will begin to fade."
Reply 0
along

Niagara Branch

Hello. I recently as of last year found a website called the Niagara Branch modeling the very same area that you are making reference to. The gentleman's name modeling this area in HO scale is Hunter Hughson and he's modeling the mid 70's before 4/1/76. His primary focus is on the PC, but he also wants to include the EL, C&O(Chessie), LV, and finally TH&B. Take a look at his page, it might help you out. Thanks, Andrew.

Reply 0
Chuck P

Link

https://theniagarabranch.wordpress.com/

HO - Western New York - 1987 era
"When your memories are greater than your dreams, joy will begin to fade."
Reply 0
RSeiler

Niagara Branch...

Here's the link:

https://theniagarabranch.wordpress.com/about-2/

Randy

Randy

Cincinnati West -  B&O/PC  Summer 1975

http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/17997

Reply 0
kleaverjr

Thanks for the info so far...

...that will help me get a decent start at this. 

Also, I made a mistake.  I mixed up the two lines.  There is a NYC branch that runs (ROUGHLY) parallel (maybe 15 degrees off) about 1/2 mile north of what is ex Erie, ex EL, ex CR line.  That makes sense since th name of the street is ERIE Avenue (HEADDESK).  I wish it was NYC/PC, but I still want to model it and it helps focus the year to 1976 or after.  I'm hoping there are still of plenty of spurs on the line.

Thanks again, and if anyone else thinks of anything, please let me know.

Ken L.

 

Reply 0
blindog10

local library

I had luck finding maps in the libraries of the towns along the line I model in Iowa and South Dakota. At least one had several versions of the Sanborn Fire Insurance maps which showed industries and the tracks running to them. Those stopped being updated in the '50s but much of the should still be valid in the mid '70s. They often have old phone books too which can give business names. In a small town it shouldn't be too yard the find the businesses on Erie Street by looking through the White Pages. Have you gone to rrpicturesarchive.net and keyed the town name in the search by place option? Most pictures on that sight are from the digital era but there are some gems there and you might get lucky. Scott Chatfield
Reply 0
Craig Townsend

Order of research

I've had success in Washington state by contacting the Washington State archive office. Send an email, or better yet a phone call to the state archive and explain what you are doing. They may be able to point you to a local historical society, or other point of contact. I've found more success by a phone call rather than an email. A visit in person is even better, but a phone call is a nice place to start. The state archives in Washington state have the old property tax records. If you can locate specific lot locations sometimes you can pull old tax records to see what was there. My suggested order for research. 1. Call (or email) the state archive office. 2. Call the county archive office. 3. Call local historical societies. 4. Call the local library for that area. Librarians typically know who or where to look. 5. Figure out what you where able to find. 6. Fill in the gaps with online research/pointed questions towards specific groups. 7. (I haven't done this yet for a hobby) Start publishing online (blog etc). As your blog grows the readership outside of modeling will grow. Trevor Marshall with his Port Rowan blog is a great example of this. 8. Repeat steps 1-7. This list applied to my MA thesis in history, so I think it will work for you. I'm currently on steps 1-5 with my modeling research for a small branchline in Washington. Craig
Reply 0
kleaverjr

Looking for Sanborn Maps online

There were a few different links to websites (I thought) that had Sanborn maps of any city in the Country.  Do es anyone recall any of them? 

Ken L

Reply 0
kleaverjr

Need ideas on how to model straight line along walls of room

For this "Erie Avenue Branch Project Layout", I wanted to model it to scale, without compression, however, that is a problem because Erie Avenue is almost 3 miles long and in S Scale that is over 200' long!  I might be able to compress it some to fit it long 3 1/2 walls of the Crew Lounge room i have planned, but hat means having 90 degree turns where there are none.  This branch is straight as an arrow.  Any suggestions on how to disguise the turns?  (I shoudl note, ther are no large bulidings or trees between the road which will be modeled as well, and the track (the road being towards the aisle ) Thanks again!

Ken L.

Reply 0
Logger01

Online Sandborn Maps

It would be nice if all Sanborn Maps had been collected in one repository, but sadly they are not. You can find some in the Library fo Congress collection, but many are in university, college, or local library collections. Here in East Tennessee many of the maps are in a collection jointly held by the University of Tennessee and Knoxville (City) Library but are not available online. When I was in New Hampshire I found that many maps were available in the Dartmouth Collection most of which are now available online. As has been noted a trip to your local city or university library may help in finding the appropriate maps.  

Ken K

gSkidder.GIF 

Reply 0
kleaverjr

OK, I could have sworn...

...that there was a link to a whole bunch of them.  I forget the modeler who found them, and I can't remember where it was posted, I did a serach of MRH's forums, but nothing speicifc like that came up.  It isn't that easy for me getting out of the house other than doctor appointments so I was hoping to find at least the sanborn maps online.

I guess i was mistaken.

Ken L.

Reply 0
Logger01

LOC North Tonawanda, NY Historical Maps

Ken L,

I understand the issues of getting around, so I thought I would do a little digging for you. It seams that the Library of Congress does have some Sanborn Maps of the area, but they do not seem to have been digitized ( Not  available online list).

Ward Maps does have some good historical maps of the area you should check out. You can not download them (copies are for sale $$$$), but you can zoom in to see the details. Example  North Tonawanda 1893 Plate 010.

Historical Map Works (also $$$ for copies) has a five maps of North Tonawanda with good railroad example being the 1908 map. Again you can zoom in but can not download.

Hope this helps.

Ken K

gSkidder.GIF 

Reply 0
Virginian and Lake Erie

Ken, Try the state archives

Ken, Try the state archives or historical society. It might have a great many photos that can be grouped by town or county in a given state. Good luck in your search

 

Reply 0
J D

Not sure

Not sure if this would help.

CRHS Conrail Photo Archive | An Activity of The Conrail Historical Society

(almost every photo you click on, takes you further into that subject/site.)

Reply 0
kleaverjr

According to some in the CRHS...

the Archives are still as of yet unorganized, and though efforts are being made to catalog them, that project is being done by an all volunteer group and therefore will take some time.  I have been invited to come help during one of their work sessions, and I may take up that offer in hopes that by helping to speed up the process a little, data on this project, and another research project I am working on concerning the Conrail mainlines that ran through the Cleveland and former Buffalo Divisions in the mid 1990s might be discovered. 

I suspect my best resource is going to be through the local chapter of the NRHS where several members are ex Conrail employees with a few of them having worked on that line.  I am crossing my fingers that their first person knowledge of the line will answer many questions I have.

If anyone reading this knows of any former Conrail employees that might have access to in particular Zone Track Sheets for the railroad from 1976-1978 I would greatly appreciate it.  That will at least confirm for sure what industries still had spurs serviced on that particular line. 

There are two industries I am particularly interested in to determine if they indeed have track spurs off the Erie Ave Branch (vs the ex NYC branch further to the northwest of this line).  Those two industries are Pepsico (near the corner of Niagara Falls Blvd and Erie Avenue), and the Durez Chemical Plant (at the corner of Erie Avenue and Walck Road. 

The Sanborn maps hopefully will tell me if they ever did exist, but I need to know were they still "in service" when Conrail took over from EL. 

Thanks again!

Ken L.

Reply 0
mark_h_charles

@Ken L -- your contact info

@Ken L -- please share your contact info (preferably an email address). I may be able to help you contact retired railroad employees.

Mark Charles

Reply 0
Tim Moran Speed-Mo Tim

Corner of Erie and Ellwood in N. Tonawanda

Ken,

Are any of these houses the one you're looking for?

https://binged.it/2CtWp4E

Respectfully,

Tim Moran Akron, OH

Reply 0
kleaverjr

Yes that is the first house...

....i ever lived in.  Ironically, it is the same color I believe as it was originally.  Unfortunately, many of the house have changed since 1976-1977. And as for others side of the tracks, much on that side has changed drastically.  I will have to use Photoshop extensively when I go to make the photo-backdrops for this project layout.  Especially fro the cross streets!

As for my contact info, please send any PM's to kleaver AT roadrunner DOT com.  Thanks again!

Ken L

Reply 0
kleaverjr

What about University Library's

When I was in college, the University at Bufallo Library had TONS of historical documents and information though not the kind of information I am looking for today.  I did what I would call a Bachaleors thesis paper on the Railroad Strike in 1872 and how it impacted the railroads and economy in Buffalo during that time. 

For this project, I am asking if they have anything in their collections that would help me find modeling information for the structures, right of ways (railroad and roads) and any other information for Erie Ave in NT.  And I would like to ask, should I anticipate them saying "yes they have information" and if there is, how useful might it be?  Or has efforts down this path not resulted in anything that is useful for purposes of modeling a specific street for a specific year.

Man, this micro modeling is going to be one big pain in the you know what.  I hope in the end it is fun, though reaching these "dead ends" really is discouraging! :-\  Though there are other issues, macro-modeling is looking "easier" except right now I don't have the space for it, as discussed in the Blog about the project. 

The reason I am posting questoins here, is I would like to keep the Blog "clean" with posting progress reports and actual results.  Maybe that is a bit crazy, but I have my reasons.

Ken L.

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