This revision - Angie's Plan

So, the catalyst for this new plan is an idea my wife suggested as we car-pooled to work one day.  We were playing ideas off each other, and she thought I should stress having more open areas for viewing, to make things more comfortable for operators, and she suggested an alteration to the plan to accommodate this.  It's not a new idea for me, as I've thought about those things from the beginning.  But her ideas helped crystalize things for me, so I'm calling this "Angie's Plan"

Basically I've moved the two biggest mines somewhat closer together, and rotated Angela's Landing 90 degrees against the wall.  To my surprise, this allowed me to re-locate the Coal Creek Mine and give it a more prototypical track arrangement, while also increasing its capacity by two cars.  I was also able to move Moria Mine into the main coal field, and the spur for it can also be used as a switching lead for Elkin's Coal & Coke.

The new arrangement of Anglea's Landing lends itself to the logging branch leaving in the corner and into a helix under the stairs.  If I ever get that far, it would come out of the helix on a second level, either along the wall or perhaps running above the newly designed branch.

As with my current one-level plan, there is a cutoff near the door for continuous running.  I've included a yard for Angela's Landing on this "drop-down" leaf.  It would hinge down on a piano hinge when the layout isn't operating.  This isn't ideal, but I made the concession to fit a usable yard into Angela's Landing.  Besides, I love benchwork engineering!!

So, what do you guys think?

Upgraded to Angie Plan Status

I like it.  Not being directly across the aisle from Nicholas makes it seem much further down the line than before. Positioning the yard at the opposite end of the engine facilities at AL makes it more linear and spread out, especially with the "bend" in the middle. Adds character to it. 

The new design also affords three distinct operator "domains" if you will counting Ashley Creek. Whereas before the ops at Ashley Landing and Nicholas were somewhat side by side, now they have their own space.  

Unfortunately, I don't see where the riverbed in Upper and Ashley Creek was retained from the previous iteration. River beds and rail beds in West Virginia are tantamount to one in the same almost. The area at Coal Creek Mine looks like it would make for a nice river route addition to the scenery.

That switch for the continuous cutoff better be bulletproof from the looks of it's location.  Is there by chance an outside window right there for access?  "Drat. Hey super. Derailed at the cutoff again."  "Alright. Hold on while I get my coat and boots...l"

Looks great Michael. And big Kuddos to your wife. You mentioned being in Ohio.  Whereabouts? 

Moria

I fear to go into those mines of Moria, where the dwarves delved too deeply and too greedily. 

Good move naming the landing after the wife. See, that's why I'm always in trouble. My first thought would've been to name the Balrog that lives within Moria after the wife. 

Randy

New Plan

Michael,

I really, really, really, really, really, really like this new plan! What a great improvement! Kudos to your wife as well for actually taking an interest in the plan and making some great suggestions! She is now the envy of many other modelers here on MRH!

I think this new plan of yours has a much closer feel for what you usually see with a coal hauling railroad in the Appalachian mountains. When I Google earth my N&W Pocahontas District the tracks curve left and right like a snake through the mountains. Your new plan recreates that feel perfectly! I really like this plan!!!!!

Those turns in the mainline also add a lot more enjoyment as you watch the train snake around the mainline. One of the pet peeves I have with so many multi-deck layouts is that the track plan is totally uninspiring, and IMHO actually boring. Too many straight lines along the shelf, and no character. I tried to avoid that as much as possible when planning my layout, but not near as good as you have done! Did I mention that I really like this plan yet?

I might offer a couple suggestions though. If possible, I would try to straighten out the path the mainline takes (for continuous running) through Angela's landing. It seems like you'll have some S-curves to run through on the mainline as you currently have it drawn. I think the prototype would try to keep the mainline running straight through the turnouts as much as possible.

My second suggestion would be to flip those turnouts leading into the Moria mine so that end of the siding flows into the main, rather than into the mine, and have the mine branch off the siding. Here's what I'm talking about. See the red line in the picture below...

I do have a question for you though. How are you going to be able to modify all the bench work you already have completed to build this new plan? Will you be tearing it down and starting over to make the new mid room peninsula?  That sounds like it will be a lot of work. In this case however I think it might be warranted. 

I am reminded though of a saying one of my railroading buddies who was also in the army always used to tell me. I think he got tired of me constantly fiddling with my track plan and running revisions by him. It went something like this, "A perfect plan is the enemy of a good plan." By that I think he meant we can spend so much time trying to get the perfect plan and redoing things, that we hinder ourselves from making any real progress. That's not to say things shouldn't ever be changed. But if we want to be operating our layouts somewhere in our lifetime, progress does need to be made! 

With that word of caution, what's left to be said than...I REALLY like this new plan!

Observations

Putting a yard on a dropleaf is a bad idea if you intend to use it at all during the op session.  With a main you just pick a time the train isn't there, with a yard you have to move the cars someplace else then open the gate, then  put the cars back.  it will get tiring fast and will cause operations at Angela's Landing to come to a halt.

Since I haven't been in on version 1 I'm not sure what the overall operation is.  I don't quite understand how the operations will work.  There appears to be a helix at Mikes Peak and in the upper right corner  that go to either staging or another level.

It looks like th eonly passing siding you have is at Ashley Creek (if you put in the red crossover) otherwise the rest of the layout looks like a one train at a time out and back.  Based on the turntables it lookslike you will be running steam.  It appears that a coal train to the branch will run forwards out and then backwards back to Nicholas (or vice versa) an alternative would be to put a wye in the line at the base of the peninsula on the other side of the curve from the lumber turntable (with the tail going back along the wall under or behind the coal tipple tracks at Ashley Creek).  That would let you turn the larger steamers working the branch.  Optionally you could lose the lumber turntable and turn any lumber engines on the wye.

Overall it looks like it could be a really scenic and interesting layout to operate.

Thanks! - Great Suggestions

Wow, great responses!  Thanks to everyone for your thoughtful observations.  I'm sitting here discussing them with the chief designer (my wife) right now.    Here are some of our thoughts:

Jeff - Access to that switch will be inside the helix.  I built the mountain over the helix with a removeable top, and I can go in there for maintenance and work.  In fact, the switch isn't there now, so I'd have to install it that way.  Also, I'll still have the river, but I didn't draw in the scenery yet.  I have to have a reason to call it Ashley Creek!

Randy - I'm glad you got the reference!  There is an industry in Angela's Landing, Gimli's Armory (Watch your back! And maybe get some armor for it!) that will use the Mithril coming out of the mine.

Paul - Good news, none of that benchwork is built yet, so I don't have to tear down a thing.  Yayyy!  I'm strongly considering your suggestion of the change in the Moria switch.  I originally had it that way, and changed it thinking about the way one would operate the mine.  But your way may be better.  It shortens the main, and that's on a grade, which would increase the grade %.  But I realized I can shorten the grade change, and then put the curve coming into Angela's Landing on a short grade to make up the rest of the distance.

Dave - OUCH!  You are totally right about the yard on the drop leaf.  I had never thought of that!!  What if someone has to go to the bathroom?!?  OMG!  That, plus the "S" curves, means I'll have to give some more thought to the layout in Angela's Landing.  I'm going to try to fix both those issues, and maybe even add the "Y" which sounds cool.

Thanks again to everyone for your compliments and suggestions!! 

Yard

Michael,

I've been enjoying looking at your new track plan since I made my last comments. I think I'm getting my track planning fix through your revisions. Thanks for that! You're a good pal! 

Dave Husman asked about your operations. It would be interesting to hear how you envision things being operated with this new plan. In the end the goals one is trying to achieve on a layout is what really determines whether the track plan they've come up with is good or not.

What got me to thinking about all this is your yard. If you just add up the slots for cars you have at the mines, it looks like 3/4 of your yard will be filled with hoppers, leaving only one or 1 1/2 tracks to cover all the other industries on the layout. Even if all the logging stuff bypasses the yard, will that one track be enough to handle the number of industries you have spread around the yard? 

I love yards, so the yard was designed to be a major focal point on my layout. My yard serves as an assembly yard for the local industries. Merchandise freights and coal drags come up from staging pick cars up or drop cars off, providing a constant flow of cars around the layout. My yard has a capacity of roughly 70-80 cars. Amazingly, even though that seems big to me in modeling terms, it's just barely big enough to handle the mines and other industries I have spread over the layout. If I could have made it bigger, I would have, but there was no more available space.

Maybe you've got a different idea on how your yard will be used, but I remember reading somewhere once that the yard capacity should be about the same capacity as all the industries on the layout combined. Whether that's true or not I suppose depends on what kind of yard a person is trying to model, and how they plan to use the yard.

So care to share your operational thoughts?

Interesting plan

Your yard looks like it could handle about 40 cars before being clogged which means you will need to pull transfer jobs from it to staging frequently. I would find a way to add a passing track at Angie's landing. Eliminating the yard on the drop leaf is a great idea, it will also allow you to use a broader radius curve there. I am guessing your trains are likely going to be 10 to 12 cars long. Big engines on this line likely a 2-8-2 or for real big power 2-6-6-2. Diesels likely 4 axle maybe some early 6 axle types as well SD-9, H-24-66, RSD 5, or RSD 15. It looks like your Minimum radius is 22 inches maybe 18. I would look at your curves and see if you could not increase it a bit. Things will operate better and look better if you can. That being said lots of trains have run a lot of miles on 18 inch radius curves.

Note if you wanted to increase the height of the line about ten inches you might be able to duck under the drop leaf area and only open it when trains were not running.

Layout looks like it will be fun to run trains on and have lots of interesting scenery as well. Does not look to be crammed with track and looks like it would be enjoyable to build as well.

Ops

I would suggest starting with something easy.  How are you going to switch the mine?  Its a big mine, its going to take a full "train" of empties to spot it.  Lets say you need 5 cars x 3 tracks = 15 cars.  A 15 car coal train drives up to the Ashely Creek.  What track does it go into, how much of the track does it occupy?  What other switches does it foul?

The engine cuts off and goes to start pulling the loads.  Do they pull one track at a time?  Do they pull all the tracks at once?  Do they pull a track and then spot empties to that track?  Do they pull all the tracks then spot all the empties?  Once the loads are pulled, where does the train put them? If it puts loads in a track, can it still reach the empties?  Once all the loads are out and the empties in then does the train have a route to get the caboose on the rear and the engine on the head end?  While the coal train is switching is there a route around it?  There doesn't have to be, UNLESS you plan to run a train by Ashley Creek while the coal train is switching the mine.  If the coal train has to block both the main and the siding and you plan to run a passenger train up the branch and back, then you either can run the coal train to Ashley Creek and hold it until the first class trian gets by, or not let it go up the branch at all or just not run coal trians on daylights when the passenger trains are running.

One other neat thing about a wye near Angela's Landing, it would allow you to turn an entire passenger train (engine, baggage car/combine, coach) .

Really obscure thing, the TOWN will be "Angela's Landing", the STATION will be "Angelas Landing" (train orders don't use punctuation like apostrophes).

I would not be concerned about the yard having to have enough space to hold all the coal cars for the Ashely Crk mine, you can easily arrange the operation where the coal cars by pass the yard, then the yard only has to support the smaller mines, the lumber operation and the other miscellaneous industries.

Not suggesting you do this, but if I was making this layout I would have probably swapped Ashley Creek  and Angela's Landing and put a wye at Ashley Creek.  That would maximize the run of the coal trains and allow all trains on the branch to wye their power.  That also might allow the lumber company to have some additional trackage on the peninsula up to lumber camps.  You could put an extra track on the tail of the suggested wye with the current plan and use that as a staging track for the lumber company, an unmodeled branch up to some logging camps.

Great Ideas!!!

Thanks again everyone for all the suggestions and insight.  It's like you guys are reading my mind.  I'll go into my operational ideas in more detail in a subsequent post, but suffice it to say for now that you are all right on the money.  A couple of notes: maximum train length on the branch is 11 hoppers.  Minimum radius is 22" on sidings, 24" on the main.  There is a second level reached by that helix under the stairs, which is strictly a logging branch, minimum radius of 22".

Here is an updated plan based on your suggestions, all of which I liked very much.  I wish the yard capacity in Angela's Landing (love the note on Angelas Landing spelling) was greater.  I think that's the main reason I ended up with the old design in the first place.  I'll have to think about that.

Yard size in Nicholas concerns me as well, Paul.  I struggled to get that 4th track in there!  I figure I'll adjust my operations so the yard can handle it.  Since I'm modeling the late 40's early 50's, traffic would be winding down, with only a small passenger train and maybe many industries only handled once a week or so.  

The Nicholas trackwork is in place now, and the track to the down helix.  But none of the branch is built or laid. 

Dave, your suggestion about switching Angela's Landing and Ashley Creek is terrific, and I hate it!  OMG. Now I have to give that a try and see how it works out.  If it does, I could use the leg of the wye to go through the wall and put the logging branch in the next room, instead of a second level.  But it would mean walking ALL THE WAY AROUND THE BASEMENT to get to it.  I'd love to raise the layout 10 inches, but it's bolted to the wall and I think would be VERY difficult at this point, since there are two levels (staging) and two helixes.  I'll give that some thought too though.

Lots to think about.  This is fun and I really value your insights!  Thanks again and if you have more ideas, please post them.  After the holiday I'll start a thread about operations, since it's very much on my mind.

Merry Christmas!!

Angela's Landing Yard

Michael;

I've been following along (as usual) and so impressed with this new layout plan that have little to add. It did occur to me that the yard at Angela's Landing might also work "flip-flopped" so the continuous run track is also the yard lead. It seems that there would be plenty of space to run the yard tracks up toward the turntable along the (future river?) aisle in front of the stairs. 

While Nicholas may be complete, you could also move the roundhouse out into the aisle, or rotate it to be over the helix, so that the yard track could extend another foot or two. 

I had to laugh at Paul's comments! "Did I mention that I really like this plan?" I feel the same.  Did I mention that?

3rd Track

Michael,

I see you added a short third track at the Coal Creek mine. Is that serving the mine, possibly a layover track for loads or empties that don't fit on the mine track? Or is it a run around for the main? Just curious.

If you take that third track and extend it to the tunnel portal to the right, you would have another short passing siding to make use of, or you could keep it a single track main, and now you have two tracks to service the mine if you want to increase it's capacity. 

Further Evolution at Coal Creek

Hi Guys.  Thanks again for all your comments and observations.  Here is another request for comment and opinions.

I have been reading a book I got from the C&O Historical Society, Track Plans & Scenes for Modules & Model Railroads.  It is a collection of official C&O plans from X-Series drawings.  Anyway, there is a plan for the Low Ash Smokeless fuel Company  Green Siding, west of Rainelle (where I'm modeling) that matches my Coal Creek very closely.  I got to thinking about my arrangement, and I'm wondering if it would be improved by being simplified.  It would be a lot easier to signal with one fewer switches, and would make much more evident which tracks are the main, passing and siding.

Operations could be as follows (East is right, West is left):

1. Enter from the East (right) with empties.
2. Pull loads and place on passing track.
3. Pull empties and place on siding
4. Grab caboose and put on opposite end of train
5. Attach to train and run (backward) back to yard.

If there were loads already in the train, this could still be accomplished with a few more moves.

I could do all this with the old arrangement, but the switch is unnecessary.  Getting rid of that switch also lets me move the siding track back a bit to make room for the signal bridge on the East end.  

Here are two screen shots.  What do you guys think?

Old Arrangement

New Arrangement

Here is the Prototype Low Ash Smokeless Fuel Co Siding

Here is the prototype for my Coal Creek changes.  The siding here is in the middle, and the tipple track is double ended.  That's different from my design.  I don't know exactly why their design is like this.  Any ideas or insights?  I think my adaptation is workable, but maybe I'm missing something.

Options

Michael,

As I was working on my track plan, I got the impression the prototype had a preference for double ended mine sidings rather than stub ended ones for ease of switching. I understand why. I have some stub ended mine sidings as well as double ended ones on my layout and much prefer switching the double ended sidings.

That being said, you have some good reasons regarding scenery and signaling for getting rid of that one switch which make a lot of sense. 

If I understand you correctly the local coal train finishes its run here, turns and runs back to the yard. If that's the case I'd probably go with the single ended track. If the local continues further down the line to do more switching then passes by this mine again on the way back, I'd probably stay with the double ended siding. 

That book you're reading sounded like a good one. I went to the C&O Historical website but couldn't find that book listed. Do you have a link for the book you'd care to share with a fellow Appalachian modeler?

Book Link

Hi Paul,

Yep, you are right.  This mine is at the end of the line.  But now that you have pointed out the possibility of working mines in both directions, I'm wishing it was in the middle of the track plan.  That's a very good observation, and I never thought of that.  Duh.  

All of the mines on my layout are stub ended, but many if not most on the C&O were double ended.  My  original plan had the "big" mine double ended to look more prototypical.  And this one was originally that way for the same reason.  I'll have to think about this some more.  Maybe I'm better off keeping it that way if only for the variety, and also to provide that option to work it from the other direction.  Hmmm . . . 

Here's a link to that book.  It's more of a pamphlet, really, but has lots of cool, small track layouts that fit well on a model railroad.  It's publication DS-01-204.  

http://chessieshop.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=59_60&products_id=1493

Variety

Michael;

I don't know beans about coal mining except what you guys post here but the idea of the passing sidling going under the tipple could be a real interesting scenic feature whether you decide to double end the siding or not.  

The spur was probably on an incline so that cars could be loaded one at a time by gravity. Is it possible to rig a way to allow the cars to be pushed to the end of the spur and actually have the cars slowly move under the tipple on their own? An arduino and a Tortuous set up to provide a whisker brake would add some animation similar to what Thomas does on his Splitrock Mining line.  

Thanks!....I Think?

Michael,

Thanks for the link to that little booklet. Sounds like it might be a gold mine of ideas. 

Just between you and me though, given our weakness in tweaking our track plans, I'm a little scared to order it. I'm sure I'll see something in it that will get me to think "Gee, how can I incorporate that into my plan now?" 

So many possibilities...so little time and money to accomplish it!

@Neil

i think that would be a really cool scenic feature too. I'll have to check the model to see if it would allow it, or if it could be kit bashed. I plan to use a model I got at a swap meet several years ago, and I don't event remember what model it is.   OMG. 

Latest Updates

I've been tweaking around on my track plan for a couple of months now, so I thought I'd post the latest version just for fun.  

My modifications have been in Angela's Landing and the second-level logging line.  One of my goals here is to keep the railroad entirely in one room, with the exception of the helix under the stairs.  This seems to be the most popular option with the landlord, and also it means operators won't have to run around the basement to the other side to "catch up" with their train.  Rob - I don't think I ever answered you, but the minimum radius is 22", and in most places it's 24" or slightly larger.  

Another goal was to increase the size of the sawmill.  As the plan changed, the sawmill got smaller and smaller.  I wanted a good scene, and a justification for the logging on the upper level.  Also, a large sawmill would better balance the large paper mill I already built in Nicholas.

With that in mind, I did a few things:

1. Moved the sawmill along the wall in Angela's Landing, and tripled the size.
2. Moved the town to the corner where reach to cars isn't necessary
3. Moved the other small industries with the town, and eliminated the woodworking shop.  That will move to Nicholas as my "as yet unnamed industry."
4. Kept Angela's landing at 42".  This provides better clearance under the second level, and leaves the option to add the continuous run track over the room entrance (still undecided on that one).
5. Lengthened the yard tracks in Angela's Landing to accommodate the industries WITHOUT the drop leaf.  I could add the drop leaf tracks if I ever even add the drop leaf.
6. Level 2, the logging line, will pass above and through the backdrop for the lower level, with trees disguising the opening.

Okay, so, with all that said, here it is . . . 

Angela's Landing

Level 1
  

Level 2
 

Worth the Wait

Michael,

You've done a really great job on the track plan modifications. Everything seems to fit, make sense, and flow together nicely. 

I enjoy having the ability to run trains on a continuous loop, but I have to admit with your track plan, I don't think I'd be putting that drop leaf in much except to please visitors. The branch line to the coal mines and sawmill is fantastic. I think the addition of that second deck to the logging camp will add a lot of operating interest as well.

The only thing I can nit pick are a few of the industry switchbacks at the sawmill and by the yard. I've had switchbacks on past layouts thinking they would add a lot of operating interest. But personally, after a while I found them to be a pain in the back side. I got tired of continually having to move spotted cars off the track to get access to the switch back. But that I'm sure is a personal hang-up of my own rather than a flaw in your track plan. 

Thanks for the update! It was well worth the wait!

Logging line

Michael:

I'd sure be tempted to extend the logging line around the peninsula. It could be formed or active tricks or even a place to build and display neat railroad bunk cars, mess hall, etc. 

Another thing that I've always wanted to try was a branch only accessible by ducking under the lower level and emerging into the logging spur completely surrounded by the mountains and sky. This might be over the helix to the lower level staging. Dang, now you have me thinking about a logging line.  

Good Insights

Not nitpicking at all.  Believe it or not, I'm a bit concerned about that switchback too.  The shorter leg, at the top, is for pulpwood/woodchip car loading.  I had to shoehorn the sawdust burner (already built and operational) into that spot by the siding, but I'd rather have the siding elsewhere.  I'm going to scratch-build the sawmill, so I'll give some thought to your suggestion.  Hmm . . . already thinking about the possible changes . . . hmmm . . .

It WOULD be neat to go around the peninsula, or even extend a track just up the close side.  I didn't see a reason for it before, but I really like your idea of displaying bunk cars, mess hall, etc.  I don't have those, and they would be a fun scratch build or highly detailed kit later on.  So thanks for the idea!!

Also funny you mention the duckunder.  On the other side of the wall, behind the door I'll be closing permanently, is our exercise room.  I'm 50, so if it takes me 10 or 15 years to complete the lower level, my wife and I will be retiring and probably going to our local retiree's spot called 50 North.  It's two blocks away and has pickel ball, exercise rooms, trips, movies, etc.  We'll never use our own treadmill anymore.  So if I went through the wall instead of the helix, I'd have a completely isolated logging branch.  You'd have to duck under, or run around the basement to that room.  But then it would be completely isolated.  As you can see . . . I've never given this much thought . . . 

See what happens when you give me ideas!

Okay Paul and Neil, you're up!  I took your suggestions to heart, and also a pet peeve of my own that I didn't want to build another helix.  I have two versions for you (and anyone else listening) to consider.  I would love to hear your opinions.

This first plan does several things:

1. Eliminates the helix under the stairs
2. Eliminates the switchback for the sawmill (but has one for the truck dump)
3. Moves Moria Mine from Ashley Creek over to the room entrance, on a drop leaf.  This gives more room for the town at Ashley Creek.  I don't really like the mine on a drop leaf, but it's the only place I could fit it for now.  But it would let me take the model to shows, etc.
4. Extends the log branch around the peninsula on a 3.5% grade.  This eliminates the helix, at the expense of more track in some scenes.  The branch passes under the Coal Creek mine, but doesn't serve it, which I think would look cool.

Main Level
 

Upper Level