Very nifty idea!

Given the reality of helixes on so many layouts, I love the fact that clever folks like you are coming up with ways to make them more fun to operate!

I originally built my helixes, which run down to hidden staging, with the idea that I'd build up computer-controlled operation for that portion of the layout. My thinking was that I would represent this as a "crew change" scenario, where the live operator would hand a train over to a computerized "crew." The computer would then take the train down into an open track in staging, perhaps with the dispatcher playing a role in initiating the computer sequence. Likewise, when bringing a train up, the dispatcher would request a specific train, and the computer would then bring that one up, where it would then be handed off to a live operator.

I haven't entirely given up on this notion of automating some hidden track, but I've now been increasingly leaning toward just continuing to run this with human operators -- and the idea of adding these sorts of "virtual" elements along the run may help push me over the edge!

- John

Great Idea!

As someone who has an interest in Appalachian railroading and is a fan of the N&W Pokey, this piques my interest greatly. It's a great way to take hidden track and make more use of it operationally without having to make changes to it. Allows for modeling of more ascents and descents than what may be possible with visible trackage, which when in Appalachia is a plus. 

@ John & Blane

Glad both of you think my idea has some merit!

John - Your computerized idea is pretty neat too, although it will take a lot more effort to pull off. Now that I have incorporated these virtual elements into my helix, what used to be a long boring wait is now exciting and fun. I'm up the helix before I even know it! Which just goes to prove "Time flies when you're having fun!" Give my idea a try, I think you really will like it.

Blane - Glad to run into another N&W railroader! I agree with what you said about the amount of ascents and descents being limited on our layouts. That was especially true for my current multi-deck layout. The decks themselves are basically level. The only real grades I had were in the helices. Using the virtual grades does allow greater use of the helix, and makes it feel much more like I'm running through the mountains somewhere on the main. 

Great idea Paul, although

Great idea Paul, although even if you had only one grade per helix and some crossings I think you would still have a great idea. Many times a real grade would be several train lengths long, several miles so one would impart a great amount of realism to your layout. Nothing wrong with the way you did it though as you also add lots of distance in the helix to the layout and the modeled portions can represent points much further away. Talk about falling into an outhouse and coming out with a new suit, way to go.

I suspect you might eventually begin creating mini scenes in the helix to really capture the operators interest as your train goes through the viewing window. Imagine having sounds of wheels squealing triggered by a detector as the train passes. Add that to your sound from the decoder and what an effect it would have. It could be played on a speaker inside the helix and would not be limited by what could be placed in a model.

Fantastic work.

Heard if not seen...

How very unique.  I operate on a couple layouts that have scenicked herniated helices, which when on that particular turn have grade crossings and one even has a short siding with an industry.  The appropriate sounds are utilized for these, but as you stated, the rest of the time is spent "fiddling". Your idea goes to the next level and beyond.  Great out of the box thinking.  You're making an 8 hour drive seem more plausible all the time!

Jeff EL Marion 2nd Sub 1964

@ Jeff & Rob

Glad to hear from you guys again, even if it is on a different post!

Rob - Your statement about a real grade being several train lengths long is something I've been mulling over myself when it comes to my virtual helix technique. In fact I was going to alter things a little more today and see how it goes. I'm thinking the run through the helix might go something like this:

A) The initial actual upgrade of the helix with the prime mover in notch 8, followed byb) a virtual down grade where the train coasts under it's own momentum for 1 or 2 helix tiers, followed by (other possibilities could be a steeper grade up or down, or a level section) C) the final actual upgrade of the helix where the prime mover goes back up to notch 8 until D) the train exists the helix onto the flat of the main/upper deck. Somewhere in there I would also throw a grade crossing with the appropriate horn signals. That gives me some variation within the helix, but also give the train a chance to "settle into" the grade a bit before having to make another transition. I think this will feel a little more like the real prototype as you described. 

Jeff - Thanks for the "out of the box" compliment! Truth be told though, necessity is the mother of invention, and this is just another example of that. As I described in my original post one thing led to another, and my virtual mainline plan for the helix was simply the next logical step as my original idea continued to evolve.

I have to admit I was really excited to post this idea to the rest of the MRH readers to see what they thought. Especially so because I can't remember ever having heard or read anything like this before. So I'm glad to hear you were intrigued by the idea! 

You're not alone

Paul, there are other N&W fans on the list. I also model a fictitious branch of the N&W loosely based on the line from Roanoke to Winston-Salem in the late 1970's.

Don Trettel

@ Don

Yay! Another N&W fan coming out of the woodwork. Glad to meet you Don! This post is proving to be fruitful in more ways than I expected! 

Graphic Representation of Virtual Mainline

After experimenting more with my virtual mainline idea, here are the "helix scenarios" I've come up with for my layout. I decided to provide you with a graphic representation for each helix to give you a better idea of what the engineer will be doing with the train as it makes its way around the helix.

I have four helices, each double stacked at each end of the layout, so I've laid them out that way on the sheet. 

Key:

• Space between vertical dashed lines represents 1 tier of the helix. I have two 4 tiered helices, and two 5 tiered helices.
• Grade of mainline is indicated by steepness of line. Grades are divided into steep, moderate, and level categories.
• Lines to the left or right of the dashed lines represent visible mainline leading into the helix.
• Arrows pointing left or right next to the lettering indicate direction of train travel.
• N8 = Throttle Notch 8, N6 = Throttle Notch 6, etc.
• CST = Coast
• MOD = Modulate throttle to maintain speed on level mainline.
• DB = Dynamic Brake activated.
• H = Sound horn at this point for virtual grade crossing.

I'm not exactly sure this is the way prototype trains would operate over such terrain in real life, but it seems to make sense with my trains on the layout, and works well with the Loksound decoders I'm using. As you can see the possibilities are almost endless in terms of what one can do in programming your virtual mainline in the helix.

As an added benefit, when I run the trains through the helices now, I have to think about what is up ahead on the main, and start to make speed adjustments in anticipation of grade changes. At first you have to think a lot about what you are doing, but once you "learn the route" it becomes easier. I would imagine this is kind of like what a real engineer goes through on the prototype. 

Hope this helps anyone with a helix get a lot more enjoyment out of their hidden track than they may have thought possible!

Well done and very creative

I like when layout owners build viewing ports or more into their helix. To me, the worst part of operating is not seeing your train. It always makes me want to ramp up the throttle and then my train exits the helix at an abnormal speed. 

Adding the crossings sounds like good fun. We have amazing sound decoders in our hobby now, so why waste them on hidden trackage. 

I don't think I'd be a fan of simulated grade changes, that might be too much for a visiting operator to comprehend. ( What do you mean I need to use dynamic brakes going up the helix?) There are other items you could add to enhance the trip around the circles. Things such as a faux interlocking, crossing another line or a bridge that lifts or swings for marine traffic. Slow orders, pausing to set retainers on first 10 cars, and a possible hotbox/dragging equipment detector. ( That will be a shadow box scene in my open helix )

So when are we getting together to discuss the ore vs. coal hauling debate? 

@ Thomas

Hey Thomas, good to hear from you again! Thanks for the complimentary words.

I had to laugh when I read about you ramping up the speed of your train in a helix. Even with viewing ports that allowed me to see the train on the helix, that's what I was doing. The train would come into the helix, I'd set the sound on the decoder to notch 8 going up, or dynamic brake for coming down, and then I'd wait, and wait for the train to exit onto the visible portion of the mainline, bumping the speed up just to get through quicker.My virtual mainline has eliminated most of that stagnant boring time for me now.

I agree, visiting operators might find such virtual operations a little strange at first as you mentioned. But since you don't see much of the actual incline of the helix through the viewing port, it's really not too hard to get used to. My advice is "Try it! You might like it!"

On that note, what about coming over to my place? I'd enjoy the company and would really like getting some feedback from a fellow railroader! The Clinchfield used to lease engines from the Missabe during the winter months if I remember right. So maybe you could bring one of your engines along with you and try the virtual mainline our for yourself. Interested?

As for the debate between ore and coal I'm caught between a rock and hard place! (Was that a pun?) I might model a coal hauling railroad now, but when I was in high school I absolutely loved those little ore cars you're so fond of! So I think we'd get along great.

Great idea...

I think this is a great use of the run time in the helices. Gives an operator something to think about and keeps him engaged during the run through the helix. I like it and will probably unabashedly steal it in the future.  

Some of the suggestions about stopping in the helix for other scenarios would be counter-productive in my opinion, we're not trying to make the time in the helix longer, we're trying to make a long time in the helix seem shorter. I think you've accomplished that quite well. 

I've thought that another idea on a dispatcher controlled layout would be to either contact the crew via radio or have a policy for the crew to contact the dispatcher as they enter a helix, then give them some kind of train order or track warrant, as appropriate to the layout, to copy as their train goes through the helix. By the time they've finished that, they're out of the helix. Another thought I've had is a working defect detector on more modern era layouts positioned somewhere in the helix that the crew would be able to hear.

Great idea.  

Randy 

For your crossings...

Maybe a traditional whistle sign for your crossings might be cool:  

Randy

Better yet...

An N&W style whistle sign would be even better. 

Randy

Exchange student operators

Let's try for sometime after the New Years Paul. It would be great to have you visit the SMC and I'd like to see the coal moving on the N&W. 

I really like Randy's idea of using 'helix time' to copy track warrants and bulletins. I will suggest that to some of my fellow layout owners who have these. 

Now I need to see what the N&W had for a diesel roster in 1964. 

@ Randy & Thomas

Randy:

You've come up with some great alternate ideas for passing time through the helix. (Gee, that sounds like some kind of sci-fi alternate dimension kind of thing doesn't it?) I'm sure if we put our heads together we could think of many more.

But here's something to consider. It seems to me the options can be split into two basic categories: 1) Doing something while the train is running in the helix. 2) Doing something WITH the train while it's running in the helix. 

As I mentioned in my original post, I used to shuffle car cards and planned switching moves as the train was on the helix. That certainly made time pass. Ultimately though it proved unfulfilling for me, because deep down I really wanted to be focused on the train, not the cards! Having a virtual mainline changes all that. I now focus totally on the train itself and what's happening with it as it goes up and down the virtual grades. For me that has been way, way more fun than anything else I have tried.

Thanks for the whistle sign idea too. I like that way better than my crossing instruction. Much more prototypical! 

Thomas:

Can't wait to see the SMC in person! That's almost better than counting down the days to Christmas! Sometime after the New Year would work well for me.

I happened to be looking at the MRH readers map and saw you are close to Depot Coffee House. I'm usually in that vicinity a couple of times every week during the summer months because I go speed skating down the Greenway bike trail. I'll have to keep my eye open now to see if you're running one of the trains down the tracks that parallel the trail! 

Oh, by the way, if you're serious about the N&W loco roster, here's the site I continually go to for info:

http://www.american-rails.com/norfolk-and-western.html

The date for my layout though is 1966, not 1964. I try to keep pretty close to that time period if possible, but may have cheated a little bit here and there. 

New Graphics

The longer I operate using my virtual mainline for the helices, the more I like it. 

I really liked Randy's idea of using a whistle sign for indicating virtual grade crossings. In fact I liked it so much, I decided to change the verbal descriptions of the virtual mainline to graphic representations as well, as seen below.

Level portions of the virtual mainline are represented by the level line. Grades up and down are indicated by the sloped line. The degree of the grade (medium or steep) is indicated by the dots on the side. If the sloped line ends at the middle dot, it's a medium grade. If it stops at the third dot it's a steep grade. Makes for a nice uncluttered appearance, and leaves room for the whistle sign to be included as well when needed.

Too late?

I may be late to the party but wonder if you had thought of adding some rudimentary scenery in the helix? A removable backdrop would be easy, lighting with surface mounted led's, and actual grade crossings would be interesting. A protected crossing of another railroad could add some reason to stop trains on the grade as well. 

Maybe not today but in the near future it may be possible to also see the progress of the train with a camera in the cab of the lead engine. I got a "spy" wifi video camera this week off eBay that is literally small enough to mount the lens in the window of an HO cab. Imagine traveling in hidden trackage that has enough scenery to also enjoy running trains from another POV! (The iPad Pro has a split screen feature so WiThrottle and cab view could be on the same screen.)

@ Neil

Neil,

I had never thought about adding scenery to the interior of the helix. Partly because I don't think I've ever seen that done anywhere, have you? It could be done of course, but I think that would change the way one would go about designing and building the helix. 

I wanted to be able to run 30-40 car trains up my helix using only a double headed locomotive consist if need be. To accomplish that goal the height for each turn of the helix was reduced to the absolute bare minimum so the helix grade would be as low as possible. The vertical separation from railhead to railhead in my helix is only 3.25". Given that I don't think my helices would lend themselves to much scenery as you suggest.

Having said that, I've got to give you kudos Neil for some more out of the box thinking. If nothing else this thread is starting to show how much can actually be done with a helix if you put your mind to it. Turning what used to be considered nothing more than a layout liability into a layout enhancing asset.

Very cool idea

Hi Paul,

I'm glad I found your blog.  Just starting to go through it all, so I started with your Virtual helix.  Very cool idea.  Operators have often suggested I add a viewing port, and I think about it all the time.  With this idea too, it's looking more and more likely.

Michael

@ Michael - Viewing Port

Michael,

My suggestion to you would be to add the viewing port! Try it, you'll like it! It makes running through the helix way more enjoyable, even if you don't use the virtual mainline idea.

If you do use the virtual mainline idea though, having a viewing port is indispensable and really makes the helix a LOT of fun. I used to dread having the train come to one of the four helices on my layout, but not now. I have just about as much fun running the train through the helix as I do on the visible portions of the layout, thanks to the new ESU LokSound Full Throttle decoders I've started to install in all my locos.

Nice...

I like the new signs. I made one you can print. 

Randy

@ Randy

You read my thoughts exactly! After making the new graphic descriptions inspired by your whistle sign, my next thought was "I should do this on the computer and print it to a label I can stick on the layout." Looks like you beat me to the punch. Thanks! 

Yet another example of great minds thinking alike! 

Version 2

I took a little time to make that whistle sign look more like your prototype's.  I hope you can use this. My first one just wasn't right, but I was in a hurry. I miss my old CAD program, dang computer updates. This one isn't perfect either, but its a lot better. 

Randy