Like it..

I think this is a good idea.  I often times have questions regarding the prototypes I run and spend a ton of time trying to locate an information source to answer them.  I like this idea of being able to ask the question and have many folks who are more knowledgeable than me know the answer or have a source they can point me too.

Prototype forum

This is awesome!  I've long felt like prototype coverage (discussion, info, photos, etc.) was the biggest gap in the MRH forum...but never thought to ask for it!  Thank you, MRH!  

As interest and participation build on this forum, I'd love to see this expand over time to cover sub-forums like we see on Trainorders.com, e.g. "Nostalgia & History" (especially Nostalgia & History), "Western Railroads", "Eastern Railroads", "Canadian", "European", "Steam Railroading", "Passenger Trains", etc.  I could see this being a major incentive in bringing new members to the MRH forum, as I think the Trainorders forums have been very popular.

This sounds like a good idea.

This sounds like a good idea. I will be happy to provide information or clarify something from my years as a railroader.

Barry

we now have a forum for Prototype Railroading

We've always had a forum for prototype railroad questions, one just had to ask them........DaveB

Sounds like an interesting

Sounds like an interesting idea. With the new category it might be a great place to locate information for folks doing some research on a specific prototype or specific aspects of railroading. I think it will be interesting to see how it pans out.

Interesting idea.....

But only if people ask questions and participate.  Start a "what's wrong with the hobby/NMRA/DCC thread and you get 100 pages of responses.  Start an operations or prototype thread and 6 responses is big participation.

It would be cool if the forum had more prototype discussions.

I do see a challenge in this

I do see a challenge in this forum. 

In many sites I have responded to several requests for specific prototype information regarding railroads I have worked for and jobs I performed along with operating information to help modelers build accurate layouts. Unfortunately, when I did present this information, I rarely received any return, comments or "thank yous" for going the "extra mile" in producing it along with stories and maps. So while I' am happy to participate in this forum I think it should be a two way street of give, take, open discussion and thanks. I have come to the conclusion that some modelers really don't want accurate information from those who worked in the  industry but instead rely on Wikipedia or "their uncle's friend's, brother in law " who worked 6 months on the road.

I realize this might be a "sour" note to start on but I do have a wealth of information to share, on many varied topics,after working fifty years on several roads and definitely would like to do so before I take that last run.

Barry 

The forum's purpose....

... is what you use it for.

I've occasionally wanted an area where information on prototype railroading could be put, which really didn't seem to fit any of the other categories.

So when I saw someone ask for one, I made it. It's good to be the prince. (JoeF is the king).

What could we see here? Anything from photos of prototype scenes to photos of those in the RPM and weathering movements posting the photos of their models - and the prototypes that inspired it.

Questions along the line of "what is this called?" with a photo and an arrow pointing at something, to "what is a random doohicky on a locomotive" where terminology can be explained, perhaps with the aforementioned photo with an arrow.

Or perhaps just the curiosity based question, such as, "if a bolster is where the truck is attached to the body of the car or locomotive, how do floating bolsters or bolsterless trucks work? (Yeah, I could Google it, and in fact I just did, but that sort of thing).

For that matter, if someone out there who has worked for the railroads wants to start reminiscing, I certainly won't complain!

Barry, I think I have read

Barry, I think I have read several of your comments on here as well as others who have worked in the field and have shared info and I have enjoyed them all. In many instances it is often something that might be a practice on one road or a geographic area instead of an industry standard so to speak. Also it often seems that era in question tosses in its own set of changes based on the technology of the day. These comments are always interesting to me and let me toss a big thank you out to you and the others involved in sharing info with those of us not working in the industry.

In some cases true prototype operation would be very tedious and not add much to the "play value" of running a railroad. I'll give an example.

Brake test, I apologize if I have something wrong here in my example, Locomotive hooks up to train and pumps up the air. The train is walked so that it can be determined that all brakes have released. The brakes are applied, the train is walked and it is determined that all brakes have been applied, and not sure but maybe they are checked again before the train departs.

Another would be a brake test when additional cars are picked up.

Not a knock on your comment or another sour note so to speak just an observation that some things might not be observed just in the interest of maximizing our time with our respective layouts.

An example to the contrary (that I think adds a lot) that seems to get less info and would add much more to operations are the different aspects of signals and how they are used. Many folks simply use red, yellow and green like traffic lights. From things I have read on here and other places there are many more aspects that are shown and different rules for what is to be done in particular time periods. I hope you and the rest of the guys with prototype experiences continue to share them with the rest of us as I think it adds a great deal to the hobby.

Hi Rob and thanks for the

Hi Rob and thanks for the comments. Yes, you were one of the few which did repeatedly offer positive comments when I posted.

Regarding air tests you're right in that they only offer a short pause on a model railroad. On the prototype no cars can be be moved more than a mile with out performing some type of brake test to insure they function correctly to slow or stop movement. On most model railroads, especially switching layouts which don't occupy a main track outside of yard limits this test would not be necessary. Think of the example of an industrial park operation where cars are switched within a mile area. The only time you would need to perform an air test would be when departing the yard where the job was put together and departing the industrial park back to the yard.

Concerning automatic, wayside signals this can be quite a puzzle. One concept to keep in mind is that all railroads operate with some form of main track authority. This can be yard limits (main track only not yard tracks) or some other authority like train orders (before dependable radio communication, issued by the dispatcher to a train order operator who physically delivered it to a train crew), track warrants( simple fill in the blank forms issued to crews direct from dispatchers) or some form of CTC (Centralized Traffic Control using dual control/power switches and signals controlled by the dispatcher for route authority and occupancy). Some railroads also use Automatic Block Signals to keep trains separated but still require movement authority like train orders or track warrants.

When it comes to color light signals there are quite a variety such as train order signals at depots and towers where operators delivered train orders, automatic block signals used to keep trains from running into each other (but depends on crew compliance) and CTC signals which consist of control points using absolute signals and dual control switches, like at sidings and interlockings along with intermediate block signals to keep trains separated between control points. There are also various types of CTC signals which can be either route or speed signals. In addition to these traditional movement authorities there now is a new type coming into practice called Positive Train Control which will use trackside, transponders in connection with GPS to enable stopping a train remotely if the engineer becomes incapacitated to avoid an incident.

I realize this is probably a lot to take in at first glance so please ask questions for clarification. Understanding these basic concepts may help you sort through choices when building your railroad. I am also sure other railroaders will be happy to add and clarify more information to this discussion. Greg of "Mountain Goat Greg" fame is also a friend and great contributor who can add much value to the discussion.  

 You might be interested in knowing that a "well known",electronics expert who supposedly was an authority on railroad signals (he had no actual prototype experience), wrote a book on railroad operations, years ago but unfortunately, did not understand the basics of operation on the main track. Shortly before publication he asked how he could use train orders and CTC on the same track not realizing that you normally, use only ONE form of authority on the main track. Some times "experts" who lack actual experience don't often understand the way things work.

Happy railroading,

Barry

@BOK

". . . Positive Train Control which will use trackside, transponders in connection with GPS to enable stopping a train remotely . . ."

That's not really an entirely accurate description of how PTC works. Wayside sites and locomotives are linked via 220mHz radios communicating between themselves and with base stations, then from the base stations to the back office via microwave. Data is sent to the back office and to locomotives about signal aspects two blocks ahead. The engineer can see this information on a screen in the cab.

GPS plots the location of wayside sites and the location of locomotives: waysides and locomotives are also equipped with GPS antennas, which also are connected to the PTC radios.

Should a locomotive approach a signal, speed restriction, or track bulletin Form B requiring it to reduce speed or come to a stop, and the engineer does not comply in a timely manner, the PTC system in the locomotive activates the braking system to slow or stop the train. It's not done remotely by someone in the back office.

PTC does not control the signal system, nor is it a type of main track authority; it merely communicates the state of the signals and provides for slowing or stopping a train if the signal indication is not obeyed.

PTC is in revenue service now on several divisions of BNSF. We went live on the Fallbridge, Bellingham and Scenic subdivisions here in the Northwest a few weeks ago.

Thanks, for the

Thanks, for the clarification, Pau that's a quick and easy explanation.

PTC was just coming into play on the group of short lines I worked for so I didn't get too familiar with it before I retired last year.

Barry

Sorry, I should have

Sorry, I should have completed your name, Paul.

Barry

No worries, Barry

I shouldn't wonder that if the Class 1s are making huge efforts to implement PTC, then short lines required to install it have to be under the gun as well.

Paul, you are correct. but

Paul, you are correct. but only the places where we operated on foreign line trackage which handled Amtrak or commuter trains.

Barry 

PTC

Sorta, kinda, not really.

PTC is an overlay over the top of the existing signal or track authority systems.  It is designed to keep a train from exceeding its authorized speed or exceeding its main track authority.  It is not a signal or control system unto itself.

The dispatcher grants the train a main track authority and issues bulletins which may have speed restrictions.  The train is in contact with the dispatching system to know where its main track authority extends and any temporary speed restrictions.  If not in CTC the trackside systems communicate with the train to indicate switch position or interlocking signal indication.  The train communicates with the railroad information systems to download a map of the area over which it is operating, the tonnage of the train, the length of the train, the permanent speed restrictions, speed restrictions of any cars in the train and the schedule of the train (route over which it is authorized to operate).  The train uses GPS to locate its position on the track map. 

The PTC system checks to see that the train is operating on its authorized route (if not it stops the train).  The PTC system checks to see that the train is not exceeding the authorized speed for its location.  If it is it alerts the engineer and if he does not take action to reduce speed, PTC will stop the train.  The train compares where it is to where its authority ends.  Based on its speed and weight, and the terrain over which it is operating, the system determines whether the train can be stopped before it reaches the of its authority.  If it thinks that train is approaching the end of authority it does not appear to be controlling speed to be stopped prior to reaching the end of its authority, it warns the engineer.  If he does not take action to control the train, PTC will stop the train.

My contribution is here................

http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/26646?page=1#comment-244274

Peter

The Ongoing PTC Saga....

 Paul, We are actually using PTC and LEADER. PTC is the government mandated train control system you already mentioned and LEADER is used as a fuel saving system. So not only do we have the two 220 MHz radio antennas on the farms, we also have 4 cell antenna, 3 WIFI antennas and the two GPS antennas on the farms to communicate with the back office. Skynet became self aware August 29th

Now the way I understand the PTC ruling, locomotives that operate on lines that carry passengers or handle hazardous material freight have to be PTC equipped. Any line that does not handle the above two, does not need PTC equipped locomotives. As part of the PTC upgrade, we are removing all intermediate signals, the only land side signals that will remain on the system, will be the home signals at interlocking plants or as some people call them, Control Points. The biggest change most folks will notice is the removal of the Position Light Signals, they are all being replace with the Darth Vader signals  

Barry is right

Most modelers dont really want to know.. If you want realistic ops, go park yourself in a siding and sit there for 5 hours.

-Scott

Gold

To me, the information from Barry, Scott, and other professional railroaders is gold.  I can't explain the lack of interest in prototype subjects here, but I hope it improves over time.  I'm not suggesting that everyone has to be a prototype modeler, but I think even freelancers could benefit from a greater understanding of how the prototype works.

More Gold

I agree with Joe. I love the information that comes from the old heads. Keep it coming, please. 

Randy

Info

... or even info from new heads.  We have a couple of railroaders on here who are in the middle of their careers and are out there working every day.  The railroaders I run into are usually more than happy to answer questions and explain what they're doing.  

Gold

Yes... GOLD!

and personally, I like including brake tests in my sessions.  I know, that makes me weird.

Weird

I like your kind of weird Bill.  I'm right there too, but I must admit that I tend to forget the brake test rules between op sessions.  I think that means I need to operate more frequently!