Hmmm to me...

...it sounds like too much! if you are only moving 40 cars in a session then and only 4 trains it seems like the yard is overkill. I like the fact you can store a lot of rolling stock compared with what you will move which means the same cars will not be used over and over.

I have a rule with yards that seems to work similar to the well known rule on staging;-

N=2n+1

where n = the staging you think you need

          N = the staging you really need

My corollary to this is:-

Y=y+2

Where y = the number of yard tracks you think you need

           Y = the number of yard tracks you really need

However it seems to me your yard is more like 2xY. I would think 2 arrival/departure tracks would be more than sufficient  for 4 trains in a session. Of course this depends on how you operate, are the 4 trains going to be made up ready to go at the start of a session or made up during the session. ANd then there is the question of those 5 other staging track, what are they for?

40 cars?

Are you sure about that number, 40 cars? With 24 industries, even just two cars per industry would be 48, and you mentioned interchange tracks on top of that. Not sure what era, or type of industries you are modeling, but that isn't many cars per industry. Have you figured your car needs for each industry and added them up to get to that number? If not, I'd do that first. 

Having too many tracks is far better than having too few if you have the room. 

Randy

Yeah, I am a bit lost here.

Just guessing at what the numbers might be. When I used a pinwheel ladder I ended up with 400 cars capacity. That was just to see how much would fit in the allowed space. Its a curved yard so it is difficult to lay out with xtrackcad. My dilemma all starts with trying to fit some small staging yards in the same area as the main yard and elevations is a major issue. I drew up some plans last night and this morning they don't cut it. Time to really rethink this whole idea.

The industries I figured one car per but you are right, it could easily be double that number. Same with the interchange tracks. Having one arriving and one departing track does open things up a bit. I will try some more designs tonight.

plans

Stevie, post some of your plans so we can see what your looking at. Then we can start forming some thoughts that make sense. Also consider some industry that takes more than 1 car, it makes it more interesting and more realistic.

"Just guessing at what the

   For starters I'd make up a operating plan that takes into account the location, era, type of industries(their size,seasonality,etc)and any other factors that would influence how the layout should look .   Once you know how it should look then you'll know how many visible yard tracks would look right and how many hidden staging tracks would be necessary to support the onscene operations. Any excess yard or staging tracks would be a liability instead of an asset unless major growth of layout or operations density was planned for the future.....DaveB

operating experience

This weekend I am headed to Railrun. A operating group that has about 100 participants and about 25 layouts. I find it is best to have a yard track for each train to be made up plus an arrival and departure track. That makes for less confusion. Less tracks if some trains are gone before new ones are made up and more if cars are stored.. The length of the track should hold the longest train. I agree with other posts,it seems like your plans are overkill. Through trains I assume just stop and drop and/or pickup and leave, so maybe have a track for drops or pickups. That could be the arrival or departure track. 

                                                                                                                          Ray 

A thought

Steve there are several different types of yards that serve different purposes. It sounds like you may need a small reclassification yard and not one designed for a lot of storage. Assuming an average train may be, let's say 24 cars (?) you may be able to get away with two smaller yards back to back? This would have two ladders running diagonally parallel to each other. Too large a yard might find you digging thru an entire track for just one car in the middle. I'm in the process of planning a yard myself and I've whittled it down to three or four tracks for switching.  

I did an article on yards some time ago, if I can find it I'll pass it on.  

Use the layout design formulas to see if your yard is big enough

You can use my layout design formulas to see if your yard is large enough. It's in the Oct 2014 issue of MRH.

/magazine/mrh-2014-10-oct/layout-design-assessment-formulas

Keep in mind a yard that's over 50% full is so full it gets hard to switch efficiently, so 2x the cars capacity you need is recommended.

Another design with xtrackcad.

So lets say I double my first estimate of cars, and double it again plus 10% and I should be comfortable with a yard capable of about 200 cars. I am going to play some more with the design software. Really not satisfied with what I have drawn so far. I had a short stub wall opened up for all the electrical so I put in an access panel. Big enough to climb thru if need be.

As far as the operating system, I am leaning towards car tabs such as The G&D used. I like the idea of not everything set in stone. Not every car needs to be switched during an operating session. I am going to have staging yards. Small to start, with future expansion. I am thinking 8-12 staging tracks now, with expansion to a few dozen in needed. I expect to run a lot of thru trains. Limited or no stops. Yes, typical train lengths of 8 to 25 cars for the local stuff and thru trains could be up to about 35 cars or so depending on final length of staging tracks.

Planning this is a lot more fun than room prep.

A pic to show the area available

The area available is about 13.5 feet square. The entire layout space is 13.5 by about 43. The solid lines are walls. The olive colored lines are proposed benchwork edges. The 5 tracks on the bottom and far right are staging tracks and are elevated 4 inches above the yard. There is a return loop track that passes under them.

Putting the return loop here is causing the most headaches about access to the back tracks. But I may be stuck with it. Need a way to turn trains and also it allows continuous running. I did cut an access in the short stub wall but there will still be some long reaches. The turntable may or may not be used.

The 8 yard tracks are thrown in for reference and I think I may go with less. Still want room for servicing tracks etc,

Very little of the benchwork is built and it is planned for the other end of the room. It would not be a major deal to totally rethink the entire layout and rethink all of the benchwork and trackplan. And I still have a lot of room prep to finish in the meantime.

Having most of one long wall open complicates things.

the total room

This shows the total room available. The yard in this pic is real overkill as it holds about 400 and uses all the space available with none for normal structures found in a regular yard. Its one saving grace is access is better to the back tracks with an open area behind them. There are no staging yards in this plan. Although easily added by just making the rear tracks as staging.  

A few thoughts

Steve,

This sounds like a rather large layout with a lot of things going on. Are you planning on holding operating sessions with a dedicated group of people or by yourself? The reason I say this is sometimes less is more. I've learned that sometimes I have bit off more than I can chew. Typically when operating layouts we tend to run for only a couple of hours before we get tired and move on to other things. I don't know how many folks I've known who has simply been burned out on the hobby because they reached a point where they realized they took on way too much on their own. I'd rather have a layout with 12 good industries holding various amounts of rolling stock than 24. Also, I would also keep the amount of track to layout real estate ratio to less than 50%. This way you can leave room for interesting non rail scenes and landscape. As a professional railroader I've noticed yards are typically designed to hold the same amount of cars as the track capacity of all the industries it serves.

Tim

It is rather large

I am planning to build it in stages. The main yard and staging tracks will come later. Yes, it is planned for several operators. Maybe up to 8 or so. I have one other helping me with the early room prep. I expect a few more once actual layout construction begins. If this was just a solo effort I would not do it. I would go with something much smaller. 24 industries is a guess. The waterfront as planned has about 8-12 cars capacity. The lumber mill area as planned is a little less. The rest is just assumptions based on available space. Other than the main yard, the rest of the layout will be less than 50% of the space dedicated to track.

One thing about the yard

One thing about the yard tracks you will end up using what you build. If they do not get used as active yard tracks you will use them to store your trains, or stage them the way your layout is designed. It might be true that you don't want to use every car in the yard every time you run your layout. By having them on the rails and unhandled you will save lots of wear and tear on the details.

Of all the things you are building on the layout a few extra yard tracks are likely the cheapest things to build. Now with that said I would not build them too close together to allow use of them or so many that they become an end in themselves. Nothing says the tracks all need to be filled to capacity either.

Long vs Many yard tracks

If your yard is a staging yard several long tracks is good. 

If your yard is a classification yard more shorter tracks is good.

If your yard is a staging yard an escape for the engines is good (unless you want to pick up every set of power and move it by hand every time you stage.)  A turntable/sector plate is a good addition at the end of a staging yard.  Allows quick access to multiple tracks in a minimum of space.

Combining a staging and classification yard sas some challenges.  If you fiddle the staging yard, putting those tracks in the back means a longer reach, if you put the class tracks in the back that makes the reach longer for coupling and uncoupling.

The other concern is visual.  What is the flavor of your railroad?  If you are modeling the PRR or NYC on a primary route having a yard with 14 yard tracks 20 ft long will look very heavy duty.  On the other hand, modeling a branch, secondary route or short line will look overwhelmed with that big of a yard.

Have you considered pulling the backdrop on the right side to the left about 3-4 ft, then put an mole aisle along the right wall and the staging yard next to the mole aisle, then the backdrop and a smaller yard on the left /"front" side of the backdrop.  Several shorter stub class tracks could fit into the area by the pinch point circle on the drawing with the A/D tracks close to the backdrop.  The staging tracks might be able to be connected to the turnback loop so that you might not have to restage every train. or would be able to spin a train quickly without having to manually mess with the power and caboose.

Mole Aisle

Shoot, that does solve some issues. I will draw it up just to see how it looks. The main issue it creates is somebody will have to climb under there. Younger guys, no problem. Geezers? It could be painful!

My railroad is a short branch line with local switching and thru trains. So the yard would be a classification yard. The staging yards represent some distant location beyond our little railroad.

The mole and changes

I  

I drew up the mole aisle. It does solve some distance issues as the rest of the yard would be easily reachable. But I think I am going to make a major change and make this easier on myself. I am going to design the plan without staging yards in the main railroad room. The plan was to add more staging in the distant future by building a detachable portable section about 20 foot long and a couple foot wide. I could build it light enough that two of us could move it and it could reside on its side when not in use between the support posts and the peninsula. Now I am thinking that would be plenty of staging tracks and it would be easily accessible on both sides.

I just finished the last of the sheetrocking and about 80 % complete with the mud. I could be painting the room by next week. Then its benchwork in earnest. So I am going to work diligently on this trackplan and post it so I can get some more help from experience. I have learned a lot by posting these ideas and potential solutions. Two minds are better than one and a few dozen minds can accomplish so much more.

2D or not 2D

Hi Stevie, Unless I missed something, the discussion so far has been on one level. Are you willing to consider using the third dimension?  If so then putting the staging tracks 8-10 inches below the yard tracks would allow you to cut the bench width almost in half ... except for the balloon track area.  With a small deck separation like 8" you need to constrain yourself to 5-6 tracks per deck in order to the keep the back track on the lower (staging) deck accessible.  The downsides that I am aware of are 1) The staging lead will need to start further to the left on layout in order to have enough length to descend 8" before the ladder, 2) Construction is (slightly) more complicated, 3) Maintenance of staging turnouts and the underside of the main deck is more difficult.  The last item can be mitigated by making the staging in removable modules.

Regards

Jan

Yes

I am looking at every option. At the moment I am strongly considering moving the staging tracks completely out of the main room and making them portable. I am also still looking at multi levels as a way of providing staging.