My philosphy about "size"

After building a large layout and noticing what takes the money and time in the physical plant, I have come to some conclusions.

One of the biggest money and time sinks on the physical plant is the trackwork, and of the trackwork, it's turnouts. They cost the most, take the most time to build if you lay your own, and they are the hardest trackwork to detail, weather, ballast, wire, and maintain.

Next, there's scenery. Basic brown plaster scenery is pretty cheap ($5 for 25 lbs of plaster, and another $10 for pigments to make my own "dirt" [zip texturing]). Throw in a few dollars for glue and a bit of ground foam and I can cover a lot of layout with some basic scenery. However, moving on to the details - bushes, trees, static grass, structures, bridges, and miscellaneous details (automobiles, people, various other small details) - they add up quickly in time and money costs and you can keep adding more almost indefinitely. Narrow benchwork will cut the time and costs of this area.

Then we come to my least favorite part of the hobby - wiring. Yes, I can do it, but it's extremely tedious and the visual difference between a well wired layout and a poorly wired one is almost nil - yet you will pay dearly on a poorly wired layout when you have electrical issues. Wiring per-se isn't that costly, it's cheaper than trackwork is - except for turnout frog wiring, but I lump that into the trackwork bucket, not the wiring bucket.

In the wiring area, there's also the cost of a DCC system - and the biggest determiner there as to cost is how many throttles you will need at once. You can save quite a bit there if you figure out what system most of the operators you would invite are using and get the same system, then ask them to bring their own throttle when they operate. I know some guys who operate regularly on several local layouts and they have their own throttles they bought for each system they operate on. That's a good way to spread the costs around for a DCC system.

Of course, there's the stuff that goes ON the track, but you don't need a layout to spend a lot of time and money on that part of the hobby, so I am confining these comments to just the layout - the physical plant.

BOTTOM LINE:
Layout cost in terms of time and money is most largely influenced by the number of turnouts you have. Two track plans, one in room A and another in room B that's twice the size - both with the same number of turnouts - will be surprisingly close together in terms of overall cost and time needed to build and maintain.

In short, it's not SIZE as much as it is complexity of your trackwork that influences the resources needed to do a layout. Size does matter too, of course, but not as much as we might think. If you want to reduce the resource needs for a layout, look FIRST at reducing the number of turnouts you have on the layout, then at making the layout smaller. Of course, one often follows the other - by making it smaller you can't put as many turnouts in the plan.

But the reverse is also true, I think. If you want a larger layout, if you don't increase the number of turnouts but you just increase the running length of track, you can enjoy more layout without a huge increase in resources needed. That also assumes you keep the layout shelves very narrow (12-18" is ideal) which then keeps the scenery burden down.

"many similar comments has me

  I think it's pretty much a waste of time worrying about what's realistic. Our hobby interests change over the years so most of the thinking done today would have to be redone in a few years anyway. I take the approach of planning what will fit in the space available now and start on it and if the interest continues over the years keep working on it. I prefer to build all the benchwork for the proposed plan at the beginning since it's more efficient that way and gives a 3D full size test of it's ergonomics and spatial appeal. If I never get around to adding track or scenery I don't worry as benchwork is pretty cheap and fast to put up. I'd rather have around the room bare track as staging or longer run than put the route together piece meal later.Worst case scenario is the benchwork ends up serving as around the room storage shelves for a few years then gets re-purposed into a new layout.  My experience is that detailing determines the cost of a layout more than size. Long runs of undetailed terrain are pretty cheap compared to busy city scenes that needs lots of details added. Similar to the bare hull being 25% of the cost of a cruising boat the benchwork and track is probably 25% of the cost of a fully detailed layout.So bottom line is figure out how much space you will actually have, decide what railroad,era,etc. you want to model,then design the most appealing layout for that space and time, then start with no second thought till your situation changes when you can do it over again.As a hobby it should be fun ,if it seems like work you are in the wrong hobby :> ) ......DaveB

Interesting observations

But I'm hoping to coax more information from you. Since I'm investigating new property, I'm hoping to quantify this. After all, the most expensive part of a layout is the room it's in. I've read many tales of modelers who have used up their space and are contemplating pretty extreme measures to get a few more yards of track.

Joe- I'm not contemplating anything on the lines of the Siskyu, but some readers may be, and it would be very instructive to know just how many man-hours it required.

Dave- Your N gauge layout is more my style, so how long have you been working on it?

pqe

Efficiency - Efficiency - Efficiency

Hi Pelsea,

I have 128 sq ft of N scale layout and it's taken me about 5,000 hours to complete it. 5000/128 = 40 hours per square foot.  That includes custom paint and decals for 100 pieces of rolling stock.

You need to make the most of your time using economies of scale.  Make two dozen lampposts/fire hydrants/telephone poles instead of one or two.  You'll make them faster and "bank" them in a drawer for later use.

If possible, consider modular development of your railroad.  That will restrict the dust and mess to the workshop and reduce the amount of layout cleaning and dusting you have to perform.

Document your wiring and benchwork BEFORE building it.  Try working from a full size paper plan to locate any issues before: you've laid a turnout over a crossbrace, soldered track feeders in a tunnel, etc.

Set up the layout as a "clean room" using a small hepa filter and fan to pressurize the room helping keep dust out.

Include some track cleaning box cars in your consists and run your trains several time per week to keep the rails polished.

How long?

Looks like my first blog post about it was June 2013 so about 2.5 years although I haven't done any work on it for the last few months as I've been doing house repairs and other fun stuff. I was looking at it last week thinking about ordering some Atlas turnouts to finish the staging side of the room or alternately remove the N track and lay down TT scale track on the same benchwork. Guess I'll think about it some more before proceeding. I also have the backdrops for the layout out in the workshop to work on if I get in the mood to do some layout work.......DaveB

Time and money spent on the Siskiyou Line

Consider maintenance

Make sure that you consider what it will take to maintain that empire you build. I have seen more than a few dusty layouts that don't get much use because it became too much work to keep it running. Like Joe said, maintenance is also a function of complexity, straight track just needs vacuuming once in a while, but turnouts will act up on there own and require work.

You also need to think about what you enjoy, I like building stuff, if I get close to being "finished" I start getting ideas about tearing it out and rebuilding! I only have a small space and have ripped it out and rebuilt the whole thing once and certain sections of it a couple of times. If you don't like building, but just want to run trains, you might be better off joining a club, building a layout will be a chore.

Time...

Where my time sink is the structures. And that depends on detailing. Personally I dislike the ghost town look. Finished structures on the outside, nothing on the inside. So as I am building one a lot of thought goes into how can I detail the inside and to what extent and since it will have some lights inside, where and how many and how do I make them accessible for future bulb replacement. And that depends on who made it and whether it is plastic or wood. If I kitbash it so some degree it takes even longer. I can easily spend up to a month or two on just one building.

I will confess here that when I am figuring all this out that it is done with the parts in hand. Unless it is  scratch built there is very little paper planning. That will change after we move as I am hoping to do a lot more scratch building.

Jack

Cheaper than a boat

It's what we do for entertainment,

I can think of a lot of other ways to spend time / money.

I have met some great people in the hobby, to me that is worth more than anything.

I don't have that boat, motorcycle, motorhome, vast gun collection or sit and watch sports all of the time.

This is what I enjoy doing and if someone wants to talk money that is really secondary.  You can do alot of activities in this hobby for very little money, or a lot if you like.

John

Definition of BOAT......

.....a hole in the water surrounded by wood, fiberglass, or metal into which you pour money!

Peter

BOAT is an acronym.....

.... it stands for "break out another thousand"; dollars that is.

Art

I am 63 yrs old and retired

I am 63 yrs old and retired 13 months. Sold the house and moved out  1 week after retirement. The train room (house) we purchased was supposed be be a downsize and it isn't. My cave/model area when we moved in was 3000 sq ' of unfinished (just needed drywall) with all electrical in. I had been without a layout for 10 years so I had all the big plans.

When I sat down to budget and work out what I wanted, I did not want a full time 10 year committment to a layout. I drywalled the entire level, 1 month of hard work and then took a alcove of 16' x 32' of the room and started my benchwork. I have around the wall benchwork no larger than 24" from the wall with all the track laid and I was shunting trains back and forth 2 months after I started the bench work. I have a 4' drop gate to build and all is connected. I have 2400+ sq ' of expansion room i doubt I will use. Time is/of was no issue and money would have been budgeted if I had really wanted to. I have never finished a layout to scenery status and that is next for me to do.

Joe's right the trackwork can be expensive. I had code 70 Railcraft rail so I purchased CVT ties and laid the rails on that, 196' of track (includes siding and spurs) and 14 turn outs is what my RR consists of. After starting and failing to make my own turnouts, I went with ME code 70 in HO. Everyone is different, my wife is totally understanding and supportive because I had to previously give up my then layout for family space.

My suggestion, for what its worth, is to sit down with your Given and Druthers and decide how much you want to spend and do you have friends to help build the monster or can you really do it yourself ( i decided I could not). Make sure you can run trains quickly, my time line was great so I was building, cleaning off track and running then building again. My aisle space minimun was to be 48" and by staying around the walls in the alcove I have  exceeded that. What ever you build make this layout comfortable to you and any guests.

Oh yea, if you start it small enough and decide to expand you always can.

If the price is right for your new space go bigger for the space for the trains as its easier to spend it now then it will be to expand the space later.

Tom

Start small(ish) and grow

I'd suggest starting small, so that you end up with running trains in a reasonably short time, then grow things as you see fit.  Nothing wrong with a bit of Plywood Pacific in some areas as you work on others...

"Start Smallish and Grow" sounds like...

Dear MRHers,

"Start Smallish, and grow from there" sounds like good advice,

but I've already heard it said somewhere before, just recently...

Oh, that's right,...  https://forum.mrhmag.com/magazine-feedback-was-ezines-891776

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

A slightly different

A slightly different perspective. If you have the space you might as well try and use it. Begin by keeping things like bench work depth and length of sections to a manageable size for your scale and goals. If you build it in sections like the troma thing Joe is talking about when it becomes time to get rid of it it will be easier. Start with getting the mainline and staging completed and after that work on the rest as you see fit. Even if you are running your trains on the plywood plains or the foam farm you will still be able to run trains.

Build at your own pace and if you have more space you might instead of modeling more miles model with less compression. Some things can be freelanced from kits to get good enough models or one could go the scratch building route. Either way it would not take decades to fill a large space with mountains and scratch built structures. For proof look at Michael Rose's blog. It seems that in very short order he designs and then builds structures in N scale no less that are truly note worthy. Maybe he is unique and that is beyond many of us.

There are great examples of large structures designed and built using poster board or foam core that produce very nice models quite quickly. The model railroad press is full of these inexpensive place holders that have a few details added and fool everyone into thinking there is more there than there is.

The cheapest parts are the wood and wire and generally scenery that I have described above so the budget should not get destroyed by adding another two boxes of flex track or some more foam core foundries which are often just large rectangular boxes with smoke stacks and some details.

It is possible to go large with out going crazy and if you are having so much fun that work slows down you might have hit on the real reason for the hobby. To have fun and enjoy yourself.

I have also been thinking about the complexity of signal systems and other wiring. What if you could keep all of your track power to connections in the first eight to eighteen inches of your bench work with most of them being the former rather than the latter? It would surely reduce the amount of work and maintenance on the layout. How about eliminating the detection aspect and using tower control with surveillance cameras to keep track of trains? It has already been done and looks like it would save lots of money.

One also could eliminate lots of the miles of mainline that require all that and instead model just a few miles that only see two to four trains at a given moment of time and model them in their entirety. The layout would then be a stage and the great beyond would easily be represented by staging. Think of 3 or 4 passing tracks in one town and you do not need fast clocks you could use real time, no more trying to do a 2 hour switching job in ten minutes, and your trains could then be more like real trains in length.

Buy a house with a basement...

and use the basement... go have fun and don't worry about what size it is or how much it costs or any of that. 

Fun is what this is about. Nothing more. 

IMO... Size is retaliative to

IMO...

Size is retaliative to what your used to as well. For me, my family layout was constructed in a house designed for a large basement with minimal supports. it was about 3200 square feet and housed the Tehachapi loop and tunnels that you could stand in. Trains were at lease 65 cars but averaged 100ish. If your funds support the room and you want a large layout be prepared to spend some money. But Like Joe said, costs are mostly associated with major parts. I for one am going the fast tracks route for turnouts. I have time to work on those even at work so saving money for other part works for me. Researching construction technics and not reinventing the wheel with the build is important too, example I've switched from "cookie cutter plywood" roadbed to spline to save on cork and narrow scenes (depth of 12 inches of layout in areas). 

Its your layout, you know what you want, distance from town to town, long or short trains, major forests or desert. Know your physical limitations, your not as young as you were and how much outside help you buy with beer. 

Who cares what amount of time you spend on the layout as long as your having fun. What fisherman, golfer, or hunter keeps track? they just wish it was more!!!

I highly recommend the TrainMasters about dismantling a layout, before you build thou. I found a resign after that. 

Mike

IMO... Size is also

IMO... Size is also relative to...

How many FRIENDS will help you to progress? Well, not mandatory true

Experience Helps

If you are just starting its tougher to know what you want.  If you have been at it for a while its easier.  I have been modeling for almost 50 years and have had 8 home layouts, belonged to 3 club layouts, 4 modular groups and helped people build about a dozen home layouts.  This is my 4th layout with the same prototype railroad, the 3rd layout with the same prototype area, and the 2nd with the same era.

On my current and possibly next to final layout, I elected to go single deck just because I wanted something that I could possibly complete or at least get close to completing in the next 20 years.  Because I have done things numerous times, I have a decent idea on what the effort is.

(note: Since at some time I might have to transition from my current private home to an assisted living center its always possible that my final layout will be a small switching layout.)

Some very good points here

I think Joe is more in the norm than we realize.  His layout is complete to the level that he can and has enjoyed it.  He may or may not actually "finish" the entire layout spectrum.  

In this case, it seems that an overall plan is required.  It can be like Michaels, a rough sketch that gets tweaked as things solidify.  But that plan sets the goal.  

Any successful activity has "milestones" or "decision" points along the way.  After all "you don't know what you don't know".  You will adjust as you go along.

I like the notion of having your trains running in a couple of months.  There are a lot of aspects to this hobby, and most of them involve running trains in some fashion.  The finish detail will vary by the individuals own personality.

Cost is another question.  One does not take up a hobby because it is cheap or it is expensive.  At the end of the day money will be spent.  The same is true for anything you choose to do.  I suspect how you will proceed will be impacted more by incremental cost at the time than how much the total cost after say twenty five years.  

The complexity issue is another factor.  Murphy says that more things will go wrong when you have more things that can go wrong.  Most of what has been discussed in the track work and implied wiring.  Society and model railroading are going to more and more electronic gadgets.  Those add to the complexity.  They should add to the fun and not provide headaches.  Complexity can be independent of physical size.  

It seems to me that a hobby is not a race.  The only measure that is important is the "fun and enjoyment" it brings you.  The layout is the stage where that fun plays out.  Your desire to make it larger means, that to you, there is more to be had by doing it.

In my case...

I had a small layout and always wanted a larger one...after I completed the small one. Let me explain. We lived in our previous house, 1340 sq. ft., for 26+ years. When I started the layout my wife, a good woman, said I could use the entire basement but, I opted for just one quarter of it. Why? Well because I was new to model railroading and had very little experience in building a Layout. I did build, back in 1983, a TOMA-esk layout first. In 1987 I began my first true layout. Everyone asked why I didn't use the entire basement? My pat answer was " I want to build a layout I would finish in my life time". And I did. Complete, well detailed operating layout. I'm proud to say it was on the cover and featured in the March 1997 issue of MR. But I grew tired of it. I wished for longer trains, more distance between towns and a better operating scheme. Our resent move, to a smaller house, 1100 sq. ft. caused me to tare down the old layout. A year after we were in the new house, new to us, I began planing a new bigger layout. My wife said" this time use the whole basement", so I am! See my blog. http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/22280

Will I get the new PRR layout finished? I'm 63 now and that's a good question. But I can tell you this I'm very excited about model railroading again. Does it cost money, you bet! But I have two more years to work so I'm going to allocate as much as I can to the railroad while I'm still working. I'll have longer trains, more distance between towns and a better operating scheme. I have a retirement plan...I plan on building my "LARGER" model railroad.

I know not everyone has the resources or the space for a large layout but my advice, build it so you can expand it, so you can make it bigger and better as you go along.                         John

"Since at some time I might

  I'm planning that my last layout will be the Harlem Transfer. I have a collection of rolling stock and track and building blueprints waiting for the day. It will be the smallest layout I've ever built but the most prototypically accurate....DaveB

Instead of planning for one's

Instead of planning for one's early demise I say plan for a long life. When retirement hits and one no longer has a 40 hour a week or more job to go to figure on a few hours or more a day focused on your hobby. You would likely have a great deal more time than that for doing things if your health is still decent. Granted there will be other tasks that are planned for you by the rest of your family but be sure to keep yourself some time for you.

Plan your layout with maintenance in mind regardless of size. Have no long reaches and avoid all the hidden track you can. Make sure the track will be easy to clean when needed and repair when that is needed. Easiest way to do that is to keep all track close to the edge of the bench work where possible so there is no under the layout but instead reaching in from the aisle.

If you have sustained injuries or disabilities and they are limiting what you can do plan your layout so that it will accommodate you and your disabilities. But don't just hang about waiting to die, you have worked hard for this enjoy it. If you are concerned with how things will be disposed of when you are gone leave instructions for your survivors on how best to handle things. Update them every year so they should be somewhat accurate.

If one is concerned that the space could become more than you can or want to maintain then reduce till you get to what will work for you.

Planning for retirement

   I have been retired for seven and a half years now. I did not plan ahead for retirement and now find myself short of money. For the railroad layout of course! I am into my second year of building after taking care of the CFO's space in the building (sewing room) and have bench work in, foam in place, trial placement of track and buildings and mountains under construction. And boy am I having FUN.

   One of my outside jobs I am working on is re-insulating the floor of the building. Got a fair start on it, hope to finish in about a week, weather permitting. Once more around the yard with the tractor, mount the blower and wait for old man Winter. Little snow = more modeling time, GO El Nino!