JMRI and WiThrottle

This looks a lot like my WiThrottle, free, that I use on layouts with JMRI, free. It's going to be tough to compete on price. I can control any locomotive with DCC, no new board required. I might be missing something, can't watch the video right now.  

Randy

Already discussed

Bernd,

It was discussed at some length in early October.

https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/bachmann-ez-app-12198206

@Randy,

Totally different than WiThrottle.  This uses a blue tooth receiving decoder, not DCC, and gets the signal from a blue tooth enabled phone.  It is proprietary.

Regards,

Dave

Very Interesting, very exciting

This is a lot like WiThrottle (free) with JMRI (free), but without the requirement for a DCC system (not so free).  Both systems require a power supply.  Besides the lack of requiring a DCC command system, (just track power), the big difference is the  engine can be selected and configured with an easier user interface (no CV to memorize).  I would compare this to Ring Engineering Railpro not conventional DCC.

I think this has the potential to finally move engine control into the 21 century.  The biggest problem that I see with DCC right now, is NOT that it communicates through the tracks, but that the customer interface has not keep up with the time.  (Battery capability is what really is preventing us from really running dead track).  We should not be using 40 button Digitrax type controllers to control and program our trains.  We should be using smart phone or smart controllers (like the railpro controller) to control the trains. I would love to see a smart controller with more realistic, physical train controls. For diesel, an eight notch throttle,  directional lever, engine breaks and air breaks.  For steam, a throttle, Johnson bar, engine brakes and air brakes.  This smart controller would also have a touch screen for selecting engines and setting.  The video also talked about adding addition features like having to refuel the engine, but I could also envision things like air pressure, and setting retainers.  Features like this could be added via software download instead of hardware changes.

The unknown in all of this is what electronics are required in the engine.  The video does not look inside the shell and I can not go to the bluerail website yet.  If it is just a electronic board the same size as the current mobile decoders, then this could be a winner.  The biggest reason I have not jumped on board the railpro wagon is the mobile decoders are to big for me and the sound is not impressive.  I am sure this will change in the near future.

Art      

Disscusion

Sorry about that Dave. Missed it in October, or did I post it in October.  Anyway, just thought I'd bring it up. It can be glossed over.

Bernd

...

IT's nice - Consider it the next iteration after Ring, whereas with Ring, you had to buy the controller and the power supply, and before Ring, you had to buy the controller and the system and the power supply.  All systems require their specific chip, but we'll see how useful the chip is once it gets here.

Because let's be honest, if it does things with a better protocol...

Fun Times

Dead Rail

I got an email from these guys and am very excited to see where this goes. In particular the advantages of popularizing battery power and NO system other than the board. Goodbye Digitrax, NCE, MRC, etc. Once charging become easy and transparent, this will go a long way to entering our world that much easier.

Speaking of batteries, I just got a 12V converter for my 3.7V batteries so will be able to charge my batteries using common USB connections and magnetic connectors to the tender (or battery car). The idea of several battery cars with connected wires to the engine will give long, long operating sessions possible with an easy drop and pick-up of a new "tender". 

We should see the Bachmann Blue Line this spring followed by the stand alone boards.

Neil

Looks promising...

It seems to me that if you were planning to use this system exclusively on a layout you would be better off with a DC system, not just to save on the overall cost, but also to make the wiring simpler and the power more reliable. Is that correct? What about wiring turnouts? 

I like the direction this is heading.  

Randy

Less Wiring

Perhaps there would less power wiring to power the motive power. Still need would be building lighting, turnout wiring and if you're so inclined, signal wiring. I would see signal wiring easier with battery power since you won't need to separate locomotive power from signal power.

The R/C system I use uses the chip that's used for bluetooth tech. Wireless mice use it, wireless keyboards use it, and so forth.

It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.

Benny I had to think of you when I saw this, "touch screen" control.

Bernd

Slight correction

You do not have to buy a Ring power supply. My Rail Pro layout runs on a generic Mean Well supply.

...

You still have to buy it, though, that's the point.  It;s not like the Ring system completely makes that requirement go away.  Neither does dead-rail, whereas you still have to buy batteries.  Two rounds of batteries in one locomotive and you've spent what it would cost to buy a really good power supply, hence, I don't see the point to dead rail...

...

From a manufacturing side, This setup makes the most sense.  They already have to put an electronics board in every locomotive they produce nowadays, for light and sound control, and it's a very small upgrade to add DCC to the same board, and now, Bluetooth communication.

This board is compatible with their DC power pack that goes in the cheap sets [and runs all your old DC trains! See? Compatibility!] and it is easier to access than a DCC system.  How?  All you do is download the app and you have Electronic command and control without buying the command and control hardware.

So in other words, with this setup, DCC is Free.

If DCC wants to survive, the DCC side better hurry up and start putting these receivers on all their boards.  Because honestly, why buy the DCC architecture when all you absolutely need is all in the controller that you already own [smart phone] and the locomotive that you want to buy [cost incurred].

Hands down, Win.

You're assuming that the

You're assuming that the available bluetooth bandwidth is infinitely expandable. It's not... far from it. And train shows and exhibitions are already having interference problems with wireless train controls, ordinary cell phone communications, vendor credit card units, etc. Most venues are bad for radio of any kind anyway, due to steel frame construction and in-house WiFi and wireless setups. It's only going to get worse with the constant push towards the "Internet of Things". It's another case of "Just because you CAN do something, it doesn't mean you SHOULD do it."

I'll keep my DCC system, thanks, and use wireless when I can... and still have wired capability to back it up when the dead-track wireless guys are crying in their beer because there's too much interference to operate. Belt AND suspenders.

JMRI + Computer Interface + DCC + Home WIFI

I already have it.  (Phone Throttles)

I have a Digitrax DCC System (purchased in 1998) + JMRI (download for free) + PR3 (purchased in 2010) + Home WIFI Network (Wireless Router).  Visitors can use their Android or Apple Iphone to operate my layout.  I still have my Digitrax DT100R, DT300R, DT400D and UT4D throttles in use on the layout,  

Last year my wife and I upgraded our Android phones. Our old phones have been moved to the layout as WIFI Throttles.

Any current DCC locomotive can be used on the layout.

Nothing  new for me to buy to have phone throttles on the layout.

Really good power supply

You still have to buy it, though, that's the point.  It;s not like the Ring system completely makes that requirement go away.  Neither does dead-rail, whereas you still have to buy batteries.  Two rounds of batteries in one locomotive and you've spent what it would cost to buy a really good power supply, hence, I don't see the point to dead rail...

I bought 3.7V batteries online for $1.80 each. Most of my engines have three wired together but I just got a couple 3.7 to 12V converters for six bucks each. Not only will that keep charging simpler the choice of battery sizes just went way up! What does a good power supply cost? 

Given the troubles with JMRI, DCC, frogs, reverse loops, cleaning, etc. I'll stick to dead rail. 

Neil

Power

Mean Well # RS-100-15 - 15V 7A = $18.00

That's 14 locomotives worth of power. Expected lifetime - longer than mine.

The deal is “there is control and then there is power”

The notion of removing the communication from the track is immense.

1. You can have a constant 16 volt DC signal in the track. (At least 30% more motor power than with DCC with around half the input power.)  No induced transients from trying to use the power signal to communicate. The distance the signal travels will not matter, because the amplitude is the same.
2. The receiver can and will have some powerful electronics in place to minimize the impact of a short from the track power, because power variation beyond a certain schedule is to be prevented.
3. It seems like polarity control could be part of the card.  This would eliminate the reverse lop switching.  They would have to be gapped properly, but that may be all.
4. Transition to an on board power source is easy.

The last point is still fuzzy to me.  Not that it appears to be a more obvious evolutionary path, but will it actually happen in large numbers.  Unlike phones and tablets, most model railroads are not that mobile.  There is a segment that would benefit from it, because they are mobile- going to meets and shows.  But I would guess that is less than five percent of the market.  The rest of us will likely put up with a minimum amount of wiring to utilize the power we have available because of other reasons.

Because of the electronics in the board and the elimination of communication through the track, it seems like the DC wiring requirements will be vastly simpler.

1. Like DCC no block switches or wiring will be needed.
2. Because the power amplitude is constant, the number of feeders may be reduced.
3. Because the Wattage per engine is down, the number of amps per district could be higher, potentially bigger districts.  Fewer independent power supplies.

I’m sure there are a number of down sides to this equation, but from this viewing station it seems exciting.  The notion that three seems to be three players sounds good as well.

eliminate reverse loop switching.?

Probably not, unless the system can tolerate long dead zones. There is always the problem of the positive rail curving around to meet the negative one. But if the locos can cross a gap longer than the longest consist, we could say goodbye to all of that.

pqe

No more high spead circuit breakers?

I am intrigued, but reluctant. 

I don't see complete dead rail opps happening on the SD&A layout at the SDMR museum, where I am a member and exhibitor.  There's 50 to 60 guys that run there throughout a month.  There would be so many turnout derailments...it would be a cluster f _ _ _!    I still occasionally run up against a turnout.  I got a lot invested in my passenger trains, and I like it when they stop on my screw up.

Speaking of passenger trains.  I have 9 fully detailed and lit passenger cars, and more coming.  A battery for each car?  I'm not totally against it, but there are minimum requirements for me.  I'm not going to manually charge every car and loco.  There will have to be sections of powered track where I can roll through slowly or stop to recharge everyone through the wheels.  Maybe not as much, but will still have to clean wheels and track.  Batteries for my cars will have to be small enough to fit in the roof area where the electronics and LEDs are, rechargeable, protected and years of life.  I did the tether thing with my locos when I was running the Crest 75mHz HOTE direct radio (MU was impossible).  Pain in the....  I'm not tethering 10 lit cars.

I really like the rails and my train over current guarded with complete high speed power shutdown, especially at the turnouts.  One reason I do model railroading is for ease of fun, and jumping off turnouts is not my idea of fun.  Having said that, the prototypical aspect of HO dead rail opps is still very appealing. 

Spoke with Bachmann

I spoke with the Bachmann gentlemen from the video at the Worlds Greatest Hobby on tour in Raleigh NC.  The demonstration and discussion provided a lot of insight into the EZ App. 

Currently BlueRail Trains is not selling mobile "decoders" yet and has an exclusive agreement with Bachmann for then next few years.  Until the agreement is fulfilled, Bachmann will be the only ones bring this to market.

The system works as shown in the video.  But what is not readily apparent is that the 'system' is in the smart phone/ tablet and not the mobile decoder.  There is no speaker in the engine.  All sounds come from the smart phone.  The user interface is great, but all programing is stored in the phone also.  If you use a different smart phone to control the engine, none of you current settings are available.

Art     

the question is the App

Model railroading is going to be my retirement project so at this time i do not have a layout, rolling stock, or structures.  So consider these statement in the same category as if i was talking about women.

I like the Bluetooth idea.  I'm considering a small switching layout and wiring would be minimal if i used a power supply.  If I took the battery on board route I would have a wiring free layout.  I would have no need for detection or signaling.   I could also use both and the battery would provide power over frogs or dirty track sections.

The questionable area is the App.   Because it's an EZ App the scope and capability will likely be limited. This will be fine in my case but modeler who run multiple units might not have the ability.

John

AirPlay

In an email from Blue Rail Trains it was suggested that sounds can be broadcast wirelessly to any Bluetooth enabled speaker using AirPlay. Personally, ear buds will work for me as it provides an better "in-cab" experience. Bluetooth is an RF technology that will allow unlimited users and I've had good luck with device control over sixty feet (60') away. 

My layout, too, is mostly a one man show but the idea of double headers is appealing. I am anxious to see the app and hope to get to a show where Bachmann may be able to demonstrate the pilot models. Blue Rail also said that the add on boards are still slated for late spring.  No hurray.  I'll wait. 

Neil

Frequency?

What frequency does Bluetooth work on?

Bernd

I did not know this!

Spectrum

Bluetooth technology operates in the unlicensed industrial, scientific and medical (ISM) band at 2.4 to 2.485 GHz, using a spread spectrum, frequency hopping, full-duplex signal at a nominal rate of 1600 hops/sec. The 2.4 GHz ISM band is available and unlicensed in most countries.

Have a read here.

http://www.bluetooth.com/Pages/Basics.aspx

Amazing

The guys that fly the model airplanes have been using that frequency for a while now. And so have I with the R/C stuff in my engines and crane.

Athearn Crane with Bluetooth Tech

And three steam engines with Bluetooth Tech.

Who would have thought?

Bernd