Keep Alive vs. Powered Frogs

Cost is certainly a factor that should be considered; but, it is important to remember that "Keep Alive" circuitry solves a whole class of problems, of which "dead frogs" is only one example.  So, even if you go to the time, expense, and trouble to power your frogs, you may find that other areas of track work require you to install "Keep Alive" circuitry in your locomotives as well.

There are less expensive ways to power a frog rather than using a "Frog Juicer"; and I think it prudent to make an attempt to power the frogs, just from a reliability standpoint.  I am also planning on installing some form of "keep alive" circuit into my sound powered locos; since as Joe mentioned, sound that cuts out is REALLY annoying -- perhaps worse than no sound at all.

One question about "keep alive" capacitors

Is there any sort of emergency stop?  If you have a "keep alive" circuit in a locomotive, does that automatically mean a 5-10 (or what ever interval is set) second shot of momentum meaning that you need to shut down as far away from where you want to stop as he locomotive will continue to run for those 5-10 seconds?

Keep alive shutdown

Russ,

No, the decoder still responds normally to commands which it receives.  The keep-alive provides extra running time when crossing dirty track.  Remember though, that with no power or signal from the track the stop command cannot be received, such as in the case of a derailment or trip to the floor.  

Dave

Use contacts on point motor!

I just use the contacts on the point motor, Tortoise in my case. Cost maybe $0.10!! I am already installing the motor so all it needs is the wire to the frog and a connection to the DCC track power bus. Just as simple to wire as a Frog Juicer too!

Sure you may have to modify the turnout to be "DCC Friendly" but I used to do that way before DCC was thought of. I don't rely on the closure rails making a good contact, a wire doesn't get dirty!

I think the reliance on expensive technology is just silly. My Opinion!!

Battery

With battery / rc on the horizon, does it make sense to invest in either technology?

Battery, Yes

I have recently built up a battery powered 4-4-0 HO locomotive.  It is incredible how enjoyable it is to run a locomotive without ANY power issues.  It is equally enjoyable to construct track and not have to wire it in any manner.

David

...

I can see where powering a locomotive and it's decoder from a rechargeable on-board battery has it's merits.  No question.

However, with the ever increasing illumination and automation of model railroading, adding end of train devices to cars, lighting in cabooses, SoundCar modules (realistic sound the length of the train), animated MOW cranes, passenger car lighting, etc, etc...

Is reliable track power still a more viable option for some, than the multitude of batteries that could result from not having it at all?

Just curious.

Regards,

And then there are wipers ...

Contact problems with Proto 2K mechanisms can be solved with the addition of wipers.  My solution uses 0.015" Tichy phosphor bronze wire, Radio Shack silver bearing solder, SuperSafe liquid flux, and Miniatronics 30 guage flexible wire.  The big advantage of wipers is that they solve mechanism contact problems over the _entire_ layout, not just at frogs.

Don M.

Write it up ...

Don, I'd love to see a short article on how you do this! We can always use more short articles.

Wipers

Joe --

Article proposal coming separately.

Don M

You know

I do hate wiring.  A lot.  And with all the initial hesitation problems I had with my current switching layout, I really thought I would jump to battery power.  But then came the graphite thread, and my entire outlook has changed.  We had friends over yesterday, who have three boys from 6-10, and I took them down to the train room to show off the trains.  The layout has been sitting idle for the past three months at least, no dust cover, nothing.  This would normally be a half hour clean up job to get everything running again, but all I did was fire up the layout and run trains for 15 minutes.  Not one hesitation.  Not one power drop anywhere, frogs or otherwise.  

So, at this point, I really see no need to worry about battery power.  For the first time, I have what appears to be bullet proof operation and the only change is the graphite.  There would have to be a much bigger reason for me to switch to battery power, and at this point, I don't see it.  

Battery power

...

Yes, doing it after the fact is probably not the best method.  Would have been much easier had you done it during the installation ....

Didn't want powered turnout throws

Except I didn't want powered turnout throws, I wanted manual throws (using my door bolts on the fascia) with a throwing action reminiscent of the prototype switch stands. So there was no "done it during installation" option and in the presound era dead frogs were a lot less of a problem.

Missing the point....

While I rarely post on here, I do frequently read many of the excellent articles on this site as well as in MRH. My hat goes off to Joe and the rest of the MRH team in the production of an excellent product. However I would like to state the following.

To be honest, I believe that this argument has missed the point (pun not intended) of good sound electrical wiring. The reality is that while frog juicers do switch polarity, they still in essence require some form of short for that to happen in the first place, and while I am no expert in electronics, a short is a short which is not sound electronics. While it may not appear to damage the loco today, I don't believe its possible to perceive whether it is doing damage or not and therefore would prefer to not use one. Having said that hats off to those that came up with an out of the box solution to the frog polarity problem.

Stay alives I do believe have a use, however not at the risk of the loss of control. A stay alive has its place in getting over minute specs of dirt as a result of track not being cleaned for months which is what I believe you are advocating.  

The solution in my opinion is good point wiring with live frogs and electronic interlocking. This is very easy to achieve even in Joes case of a hand mechanical system using two break before make switches (simple slider di-pole single throw switches would work).Other point motors come with these switches built in, so they might as well be used. One switch changes the polarity of the frogs. The other switch controls the feeds to each line before the heal of the point. Both lines running into the point have a length of rail that is isolated, and depending on which way the point is thrown, either line is live allowing the train to run into the point. When the point is set against the direction of travel, the train will run into an isolated section and stop, hence preventing itself from running into a short. A small stay alive will compensate for the momentary change in switching with the manual point (what point takes more than 2 seconds to switch, or in the hand mechanical case 0.5 of a second?).

I dont understand enough about battery power locos, to weigh in the merits of this, however I believe that this solution is the best option for both those using DCC and even DC.

Once again this is my opinion, but I believe that it offers a third perspective that this article has missed.

Joe, in the case of your layout, I understand that this is somewhat different and difficult given that you are already established and are well into almost completing construction ( if not completed), however I believe that the frog juicer vs routing switches is a mute answer, If you can go into the effort of installing a frog juicer, it is both better and cheaper to take 5 seconds longer to install switches or hook up the point motors properly. In your case I see that it makes lots of sense to add stay alive to maintain the running of your layout.

Regards,

Owen

(from across the pond)

(Happy to recieve a torrent of hate mail... but its all in good debate for the hobby... no guarantees that it wont be a while before I get around to replying however)

Joe in your case or in the

Joe in your case or in the case of someone in a similar situation frog power maybe an expensive refit. In the case of someone building new powered frogs seem to be the answer either in turnouts that are power operated, with tortoise contacts, or in manually operated fast tracks with their neat little manual control that powers the frogs with a switch.

After reading many articles on the website and in the forums as well as going to fast tracks site I am convinced they are the way to go. They cause no shorts if installed correctly and look to be very reliable and fool proof.

I always enjoy your editorials as they are very thought provoking and in this case indicate many solutions to real world issues. Thanks again for another great magazine. Your work has made this my only model railroad magazine because it is so much better than what else is available now.

???

I will be using manual throws as well; but will include a simple electrical switch (operated by the same manual mechanism that moves the points) to control the frog's polarity depending upon which route is selected.  Again, easier to do while installing the turnout rather than later.

Yep...

This has always been my thought as well.  I bought a bulk bag of DPDT slide switches from Electronic Goldmine for the purpose.  I like Joes method of throwing his turnouts and I believe his spring mechanism can operate the slides.

I'm not saying Joe should add 120 slide switches at this point, especially with his time constraints, but I do agree its a simple electronic solution to frog polarity.

Regards,

...

Nor am I; it is just something that could/should be planned for (for those who have not gotten as far as Joe has on their pikes) ...

The point being that the cost for powered frogs doesn't have to be all that much, as most turnouts can be powered quite easily with simple electronics (i.e., switches).

Think of Keep Alive as a small battery

A Keep-Alive is fundamentally just a capacitor.  Both capacitors and batteries are energy storage devices.

It might help the battery oriented folks to think of a Keep-Alive as a small battery with a 10 minute capacity that is continuously being recharged from the track power.

When you think of it that way, the battery loses some of its charm.

Now that doesn't mean you can't communicate with the decoder via Bluetooth or some other wireless method.  

Communications and power don't need to be linked to the same delivery system.

Personally (and probably for Joe), I think the Keep-Alive is currently (no pun intended) the best compromise.  It's available now.  You can modify the locomotives at the workbench.  Wiring the already installed frogs would be a pain.  And if another solution emerges in the future, transition could be gradually phased in.

GS  

So what to do?

If you are building a layout, and you want to use hand-thrown sprung switches like Peco, and you despise all wiring with a burning hot vitriolic passion, and you will only be running four-axle diesel power, and you are a really cheap bastich, what do you do?  Not that I know anyone that meets that description, just curious mind you. Will dead frogs really be a problem in this completely hypothetical situation?  

Randy

Dead frogs are primarily a problem for sound and small locos.

We found with the modular club that we used to not require live frogs on switches until we switched from dc to dcc and members started getting sound equipped locomotives.  Modern sound systems are not like the old Lionel "chuff" system used years ago on toy trains.  The feature start up sounds when first turned on.  They idle when the train is parked, and then throttle up when the train starts moving.  With a dead frog, you get a start up everytime the locomotive crosses the frog. 

The other problem we found with dead frogs had to do with small locomotives and even some not so small.  Small steam switchers and little diesel switchers like the old Plymouth switchers would not bridge the dead frogs.  It is not fun to run a train that needs to be bumped to get over a dead frog each time.

Well

I have 5 turnouts on my small switching layout and only one frog is powered, that being on the #7 curved turnout with the longer frog.  I ran my Rapido GMD1 for 15 minutes the other day, so not a big wheelbase, but not a 44 tonner either, and I had zero stalls on the frogs.  I had issues with another loco, but it has a longer wheelbase.  Turns out, it was a pickup problem and once that was fixed, it worked fine.  The dead frog switches are #6 Peco turnouts.  The GMD1 is the smallest loco I will have, so I'm good.  If I had a smaller loco, I would likely have powered the frogs, but I don't and I haven't (yet) been sorry.  

But that is just my experience.

@ Randy...

Decent Locos and Graphite. That's all I can say. If that doesn't do it - keep-alives it is!

At least, that's my experience, and so far, there no keep-alives on my layout.