DKRickman

Finding a way to fit a motor inside the boiler of a small steam locomotive has been a problem for as long as there have been electric model trains.  I have seen four solutions - make the model bigger, make the motor smaller, put the motor in the tender and run a drive shaft to the locomotive, or make the tender itself a pusher and let the engine roll freely.

The first option is out if you care about scale fidelity.  The second is reasonable (and of course quite common) to a point, but it gets expensive and reduces the weight available for traction in extreme cases.  That leaves the last two, both of which put the motor in the tender.  That's the topic for the moment, and I'm just thinking out loud, and perhaps outside the box a little.

Option 1 - Motor in the tender, powered locomotive

There seem to be two major issues with this design, even though it is fairly common.  One is that the drive shaft is visible, the other is the torque reaction which can, in extreme circumstances, lift the tender off the track.

It seems to be that the drive shaft could be dealt with in a couple ways.  The first would be to try to get it as low as possible - ideally underneath the deck plate.  That should make it all but invisible, or at least unobtrusive.  If you're designing the drive, it might be possible to mount the work below the axle instead of above it, and possibly angle the drive shaft if necessary.  The other thing to do would be to make it as small as possible - I've seen some made out of brass or steel wire.  Of course, a thin wire cannot handle a lot of torque, so there is a limit to how small you can go, but it can definitely be smaller than the typical chunky plastic drive shaft seen in a number of models.

The bigger issue is the torque reaction, but this has me puzzled.  It's simple enough, of course - the motor turns the body of the tender instead of the drive wheels.  My question is why we don't see the same thing with diesel models, especially light ones.  After all, the motor is not rigidly mounted to the wheels, and the body can rock, so why don't we see the same torque reaction there?  I suspect there are two reasons, both of which can help solve the problem in steam engines.  One is that there is a much wider and more solid bearing surface on a typical diesel truck, compared to a typical tender truck.  In other words, the frame and trucks are more tightly and securely connected and less free to rock.  The other is that the typical diesel frame is fairly heavy, while the typical tender frame is quite light.  The heavier the frame is, the easier it is for the motor to turn it instead of the gears.

Another issue that may come into play is that some steam locomotives do not run as freely as diesels.  Rods bind if not properly installed.  All in all, it seems as though our steam models were engineered a century ago and have not changed ever since - an axle running in a slot in a solid chunk of metal is far from the ideal design.  Diesels have the advantage of better design (most have bearings, many steamers do not) and more careful manufacture.

So the solution to the problem of a tender drive seems to be to make sure the chassis runs perfectly, don't allow the tender body to rock on the trucks, weight the tender as much as possible, and keep the drive shaft as low and as small as possible.  I think that if all that were done, a tender drive could be a perfectly viable design and no worse than other designs.

Option 2 - Powered tender, free rolling engine

With a couple exceptions this is a rare design in the US, and seems to be looked down upon.  There seems to be a lot to recommend it, and few real drawbacks, so I'm not sure why it is so rare.

The advantages are a much simpler diesel-style mechanism which can very easily be hidden, and complete freedom in designing the frame and boiler, leaving the space between open as on the prototype.  The disadvantage is that a chassis which does not roll freely could bind and slide in front of the tender.

Some people dislike the design simply because they feel that the model should be powered like the prototype, with the drivers doing the pulling.  I doubt those same people have a problem with a model E8 with all six axles powered, however.  The objective is to build a functional model which runs reliably, pulls a prototypical load, and disguises as much as possible the fact that it is not a steam powered locomotive.  An electric motor driving the tender wheels seems no less prototypical than an electric motor driving spoked wheels underneath a lead weight, in my opinion.

The other complaint I have heard is that some people like to see the drivers slipping pulling a heavy grade or starting a train.  While prototypical, I feel that slipping the drivers should be avoided on a model.  It wears out the drivers and doesn't really achieve anything useful.  It reminds me of those videos showing guys burning the tires off their cars and motorcycles - testosterone fueled silliness.

In other words, I tend to dismiss the esthetic and conceptual complaints entirely.  As for the chassis binding - any steam locomotive, no matter how it is powered, should be able to roll perfectly without the motor connected to the drivers.  If it doesn't, that's a problem with the model, not the design.  While a pusher design is less forgiving of poor engineering, to me that is not a reason to dismiss the design.  It's a reason to improve the model.

So what?

Like I said, I'm just thinking out loud.  But I'd like to see people consider these designs for difficult cases, and perhaps not feel so ashamed or apologetic about doing so.  I would also like to see people pushing the limits, seeing just how well they can use the designs to better achieve a smooth running and prototypical model.

Ken Rickman

Danville & Western HO modeler and web historian

http://southern-railway.railfan.net/dw/

Reply 1
Jurgen Kleylein

Not a new idea

The tender drive concept is common in Europe.   Weinert's cast metal and brass tender locomotives all have tender drive and are among the best German prototype models available, and leave nothing to be desired operationally.   Fleischmann is one of the top names in ready to run, and they also use tender drive.   Roco uses a hybrid drive; the rear wheels of the tender are driven directly from the motor and a driveshaft from the tender drives the main wheels of the locomotive.  All this, and runs on 18" radius, to boot.

In order to make these engines simpler to build and probably more stable, the tender trucks on these locomotives do not turn, but that's hardly noticable, since they are rather short wheelbase.  They have even done it with locomotives with rather open areas under their tenders which ran arch bar trucks, so there doesn't seem to be any restrictions on what sorts of tenders are suitable to this idea.

It's something North American modelers aren't used to, but there's no reason it won't work.

Jurgen

HO Deutsche Bundesbahn circa 1970

Visit the HO Sudbury Division at http://sudburydivision.ca/

The preceding message may not conform to NMRA recommended practices.

Reply 1
hminky

Where do you put the speakers?

The problem with small locomotives with motors in the tenders is how do you add sound.

Harold

Reply 1
DKRickman

Sound reasoning?

It seems to me that the locomotive is the logical place to put a speaker.  The boiler would make a great speaker enclosure, and it might even be possible to put a small diameter port which points up the stack.  That's where the sound should be coming from, anyway.

Ken Rickman

Danville & Western HO modeler and web historian

http://southern-railway.railfan.net/dw/

Reply 1
hminky

Too Small!

If you have to put the motor in the tender the boiler is too small to have a speaker that would even give a "wheezy" sound.

Harold

Reply 1
Jurgen Kleylein

Harold is obviously not a fan of the idea

In German locomotives they usually put the speaker in the tender as well.  Under the coal pile is often a good place.  The decoders are so small that they aren't really a concern.  If you use a round can motor, there should be room beside the motor for the decoder.

Jurgen

HO Deutsche Bundesbahn circa 1970

Visit the HO Sudbury Division at http://sudburydivision.ca/

The preceding message may not conform to NMRA recommended practices.

Reply 1
hminky

Being a veteran of small locos!

Having done small HO US locomotives there usually isn't much room for a motor, adequate speaker and decoder. There isn't enough room to have a good "soundbox" with the tender crammed with all that and weight.

Been there and tried all this:

http://www.pacificcoastairlinerr.com/1879/

As far as the Model Power 2-8-0, at best it is scrap box filler. The tender is way oversize. If you get one that runs well the next two you buy won't.

Harold

 

 

Reply 1
Bernd

Size matters

Ok Ken I'm going to assume you are talking HO scale here.

I'd say that the size of a locomotive kind of dictates the size of the motor. In O & S I wouldn't think there is a problem with fitting the motor in the boiler/firebox. I say firebox & boiler since that's where a majority of the motors are mounted from what I've seen. Motor's have also gotten very small. For example here's a couple links to small motor's. 

http://www.pololu.com/catalog/category/51

http://www.robotshop.com/gear-motors.html

Some are 6 volt but from what I've heard that DCC can be programmed for 6 volts to be max output voltage.

I have an old Rivarossi 2-8-0 that has a tender drive. When run slow the motor would cog and the whole tender would shake like a paint mixing machine. Not a pretty site.

The idea of a drive shaft under the deck is interesting. I do see a problem here. The draw bar could get in the way. I think if this was attempted that a shaft of 1/32" drill could be used. That should be hard enough. If you twist that off I would think your motor to be over specked for the engine.

One of the reasons I believe a tender drive is not very well accepted in the US is because a large majority of  the tenders have either 4 axles or 6 axles "bogies". There is one engine in the US a tender drive would work very nice since it would have 5 driven axles. Here's the link:

http://www.trainweb.org/jlsrr/bigboy/4005-live-steam/4005-ls-1/full-pictures/tom-millers-bigboy9-web.jpg

A majority of European engines have solid frame with 3 wheels or more used under the tender. Much easier to use a tender drive. Although from the links posted to the above sites in Europe I see they do have many 4 axle two truck tenders.

If it got to the point of having the motor in the tender I would opt for the drive shaft from the tender to the engine in a small steamer. I do have such a project in the future. I have a small brass Ken Kidder Porter Mogul that I'd like to put a motor in the tender. (some day)

Regards

Bernd

New York, Vermont & Northern Rwy. - Route of the Black Diamonds - NCSWIC

Reply 1
Scarpia

Stanton Drives

Just use Stanton drives. Than you have more than enough room for everything. I know I'm looking at them to make a working tender booster, why not go all the way?

HO, early transition erahttp://www.garbo.org/MRRlocal time PST
On30, circa 1900  

 

Reply 1
DKRickman

The Stanton drives are

The Stanton drives are expensive!  That's around $150 just for the drives - almost as much as I spent on my last scratch built engine, including the sound decoder.

I should have been more specific - I was thinking primarily of HO.  However, I have seen a number of N scale tender drives, and even a few O scale tender driven engines.

If you have the money and machining ability, almost anything can be done.  If I could get the cogs and belts that Bachmann uses, I'd be a happy man!  The problem for me is that we mere mortals have to work within a budget (sometimes quite limited) and our abilities (also sometimes limited).  I wasn't really suggesting that a tender drive is better than a more common drive arrangement - just that it might not be as bad as some people say, and worthwhile in some circumstances.  Given the choice between a locomotive with gears and motor filling all the space that should be open inside the cab and between the frame and boiler (and possibly also underweighted and thus underpowered) and the same engine with a well done tender drive, I might well prefer the tender drive.

I have one of the Model Power 2-8-0s, and I don't think it's scrap.  It could use a better motor, perhaps, but I'm going to give it a chance, as much care as I have the skill to, and see how it does.  Any complaints I have with it are not related to the tender drive design as much as the quality, and that would probably be the same if they had put the motor and gears in the boiler.

I've also been thinking about trying to re-gauge an N scale diesel to use the mechanism to power a tender.  I suspect that with enough weight, it should make a reliable and reasonably powerful drive.  Another option I am considering is using the Bachmann 45-tonner, since the trucks have 33" wheels with a 5'6" spacing - perfect for a tender truck.  You can even get just the trucks from Bachmann.

Ken Rickman

Danville & Western HO modeler and web historian

http://southern-railway.railfan.net/dw/

Reply 1
herronp

Tender drive

Found these photos of tender drive installations I thought you might be interested in.  Novel and almost invisible idea using thin wire!  These from Yahoo Re-powering Group.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/repowerandregear/photos/album/1076863495/pic/1255169325/view?picmode=large&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&dir=asc

Peter

Reply 1
hminky

If you are really in love

Here is what I would do:

Get a Roundhouse 2-8-0

Drop the motor lower in the frame:

http://www.pacificcoastairlinerr.com/1905/4-4-0_merge/

The boiler will fit, it worked with an IHC 4-4-0 boiler:

Put smaller drivers like these ScaleLink 14mm to give 50":

Harold

 

Reply 1
DKRickman

Very impressive

I love the technique for lowering the motor.  I may use that to improve the looks as well as to isolate the motor in an older 2-8-0 I have.  Just one question:  I've been all over your site multiple times ever since I first found it several years ago.  How on earth did I miss that wonderful page?

Ken Rickman

Danville & Western HO modeler and web historian

http://southern-railway.railfan.net/dw/

Reply 1
hminky

It is under 1905 and 55n3

It isn't on the On30 site:

http://www.pacificcoastairlinerr.com/1905/

or

http://www.55n3.org/locomotives/roundhouse/

Harold

Reply 1
David Husman dave1905

N scale drives for HO tenders

I model in the 1900 era and the tenders are very small with short wheelbase trucks.  Tender drives are a problem because  of the short wheelbases and low profile.

I have looked at some N scale diesels and it looks feasible to take an N scale 4 axle diesel drive, remove the truck sideframes, replace the wheels and axles with HO gauge 24-28" diameter wheels and then put appropriate sideframes on it.

An N scale mechanism should be low enough for an HO tender and narrow enough to allow room for a decoder and some weight.

Dave Husman

Visit my website :  https://wnbranch.com/

Blog index:  Dave Husman Blog Index

Reply 1
hminky

Problems with binding and finding wheels

The problem with this idea is finding wheels to fit the n-scale axle diameter.

There is also a binding problem with extending the axles out that far in gauge.

I tried using Athearn SD-40-2 power trucks to make Alco S Scale diesel trucks back in the mid-1980's and had a binding problem with the increase in gauge.

Harold

Reply 1
Jurgen Kleylein

I dunno

You would need to make new bearings closer to the wheels to keep things lined up.  I think you would also have a challenge finding a truck with sufficient wheelbase to represent an HO tender truck.

Jurgen

HO Deutsche Bundesbahn circa 1970

Visit the HO Sudbury Division at http://sudburydivision.ca/

The preceding message may not conform to NMRA recommended practices.

Reply 1
hminky

N scale truck wheelbase right but- - -

The nine-foot wheelbase of the n-scale EMD trucks is five in HO so that works. The problem is the truck cl-cl is wrong for small loco tenders.

Tried finding an N-scale mechanism for HOn3/HOn30 but the cl-cl of the trucks is usually wrong and is hard to adjust.

Harold

 

Reply 1
David Husman dave1905

Tender drives

An SW1200 has 22 ft truck centers which is about 12 ft in HO, GP7/9/18/20/15 has a 30 ft truck centers which is about 16 ft in HO.  Switcher trucks are 8 ft wheelbase which makes them about 4'4" in HO, just a tad smaller than the typical early 4'6" trucks.  I would think that an N scale switch engine would be fairly close.

Another option would be to get a longer wheelbase truck where the powered axles fall at either the outside or inside axles of the tender trucks.Then make the sideframes and other tender truck axle float .  So it would be like the Model Power drive except that only 2 of 4 axles would be powered.  For example use an HO SD truck, removing the center driver, and use the two remaining drivers as the two end axles on the tender (with the two inboard axles "floating").  The real problem with this idea is that the gear tower is normally too tall to fit in a TOC tender.

Dave Husman

Visit my website :  https://wnbranch.com/

Blog index:  Dave Husman Blog Index

Reply 1
DKRickman

More useful parts

The RSC-3 (if I remember correctly) had a 10' wheelbase which scaled out nearly perfectly to 5'6" in HO.  By blanking the middle axle in each truck you could have four powered axles with just the right spacing.  I considered (but never spent the money) combining Kato RSC-3 trucks with an Atlas drive for just the right dimensions of one particular engine.  Of course, I have no idea if you could even combine parts from different manufacturers like that.

Ken Rickman

Danville & Western HO modeler and web historian

http://southern-railway.railfan.net/dw/

Reply 1
Wasatch Range Railroad

bachmann 4-8-4 overland tender drive, I'm going for it.

Talked with Dave at NWSL. The tender drive is exactly what I need I took the measurements and it will be pathetically easy. That pancake motor is history for the both of them. I have the big Niagara tenders so I can power up the swing truck and the last three axles on the centipede. A bit pricey but "we can handle it".------Shane

Reply 1
RGB600V

Tender drive locos

Gents:

FWIW, I've installed motors & decoders in several tender drive locos & also converted a couple tender-mounted motors to boiler-mounted ones, both HO & On3. I've seen some T/D engines that ran great (I've also seen a couple that ran terribly), so it can be done. In a nutshell, you need a gearbox in the engine that runs freely, with no slop & no binds. The motor has to be lined up properly so the "drive shaft" is as straight in line with the loco gearbox as you can get it. The most important part is the U-joints, usually the kind where the T  fits into a slotted cup ala NWSL types. There must not be any "wobble" to the drive shaft, whether it is made of wire or tubing or brass rod-- it must turn absolutely true; this means the U-joints must be centered on the ball & must fit with minimal slop & no binds. If you can put it together using these criteria, you should have a pretty darn good running engine.

Bob Battles

Reply 1
RGB600V

Tender drive locos

Gents:

FWIW, I've installed motors & decoders in several tender drive locos & also converted a couple tender-mounted motors to boiler-mounted ones, both HO & On3. I've seen some T/D engines that ran great (I've also seen a couple that ran terribly), so it can be done. In a nutshell, you need a gearbox in the engine that runs freely, with no slop & no binds. The motor has to be lined up properly so the "drive shaft" is as straight in line with the loco gearbox as you can get it. The most important part is the U-joints, usually the kind where the T  fits into a slotted cup ala NWSL types. There must not be any "wobble" to the drive shaft, whether it is made of wire or tubing or brass rod-- it must turn absolutely true; this means the U-joints must be centered on the ball & must fit with minimal slop & no binds. If you can put it together with these criteria, you should have a pretty darn good running engine.

Bob Battles

Reply 0
dkaustin

@ Ken

This is the second time to try and post this.

I have had the good fortune to have a well done pusher on what I think was a N scale brass Key 4-6-2.  The whole loco was quite heavy.  The drive wheels were in the tender.  I had run it with over 130 Micro-Trains 40ft wood reefers in tow and a caboose.   It never had a problem.  It was strong.  From an operational point, nobody could tell it was a pusher.  It ran beautifully and was one of my favorite engines.  Having experienced one of these I wished more of my N Scale fleet was designed the same way.  In a sense I had a loco that ran like a diesel.  I really liked that loco.  I do believe that once you try one you won't want to go back.

Den

n1910(1).jpg 

     Dennis Austin located in NW Louisiana


 

Reply 1
Virginian and Lake Erie

DK, a while back and for me

DK, a while back and for me that likely means in the last 20 years or so a gentleman was wanting to pull long coal trains with his y6b locomotives and was very unsatisfied with the pulling power. He was in n scale. His solution was to use SD diesels inside a tender body that he had made as well as a copy of a cistern so that he had his 2-8-8-2 and 2 SD units in each consist. After the initial test he was quite pleased and built several of these models. He had done this in n scale and other than the tenders being a bit longer than the protoype they were very realistic. At the time had he not made mention of this I do not think I would have noticed the additional length.

If in HO scale there are lots of really good choices for drives both in 4 wheel or 6 wheel versions and with several different lengths of frame. The one thing he did was change the side frames on the diesel for the ones on the tender. Weights can be eliminated from inside the diesel shell and others used since the tender will be much wider than the diesel body. In his case he found that all units ran very well together and would pull anything he connected to them.

If I was facing a problem like the one you mentioned I would try to keep the steamer powered and add a tender drive. Having too much power is not a bad thing and will reduce the load on both units. I do not know why manufacturers do not do this initially as we have some models with very big claims for pulling power and they could then eliminate traction tires. Also it would seem to me the addition of idler gears and gears on all driver axles blind or otherwise would eliminate a great deal of binding on drive rods of steam locomotives and make it easier to have realistic looking rod and valve gear action.

Reply 1
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