NO-OX - I suggest his use from years !

Not really a new process, it was already suggested by the late Linn Westcott of MR in the 50's.

I use it myself since around 2000, after an Art Fahie article in MR for my N scale layout.

I can only agree with the value of the treatment, easy and durable.

My layout has'nt run a lot since my arrival in Quebec in 2018 and his travel trough the Atlantic, but a few weeks ago I powered it with a small 2-4-0 of LL,  to show the layout at a friend; a small steam loco not really knows for his good electrical keeping.

She run all over the layout like a charm, never the master finger was necessary to help her even at very slow speed ( I use a Zimo Dcc system)

I'm not atonished since this has already happened in the past on my layout since I use NO-OX

And I agree with the video I think my track stay "unwashed" since 15 years with any product or other grit system, just a small clean with cloth lightly humidified with white spirit and like in the video a bit of NO-OX here and there applied very very lightly too

Course, I keep clean all my wheels on the layout and didn't use any plastic wheels on the layout

Track Cleaning

Ron,

A great video.  Graphite, which has also been mentioned by Joe Fugate in the pages of MRH, is electrically conductive.  A few swipes of that after treatment with mineral spirits like you suggest, and you'll be good to go.  Let the locos and rolling stock spread a thin layer around the layout on all the rails in the same manner as with the No-Ox ID.  It works great.  I haven't tested it, but I wouldn't be surprised if graphite has less of a problem with rubber or plastic traction tires.  If that is the case it could be a good substitute for the NO-OX ID.

Jonathan Jones

Modeling the CNJ's Newark Branch in N-scale

Cost

I checked online. 2 oz of No Ox is $10.95. So I'd suggest using graphite. Much cheaper. I sharpen my pencils, separate wood shavings and that's that. You use so little it goes a very long way. And lasts forever. Or at least a very long time. On my layout, I can dab a bit of graphite the minute I see trouble. And forget about it for another month or even longer. I do suggest using a very soft pencil, makes good graphite for rails.

WARNING - Charcoal =/= graphite

Hi all,

Charcoal artists sticks and graphite artists sticks are two entirely different beasts when it comes to using them as conductivity enhancers. ONLY graphite sticks will do the job well. 

If you stay with the softer B grades, any 2B 4B or 6B artists graphite sticks will do the job. These B grades have less clay binder in them than the harder HB, 2H, 4H, 6H grades (in increasing order of hardness).

A recent shopping list of where to find suitable graphite artist sticks can be found at  https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/graphite-track-treatment-12196204  The rest of that topic makes an interesting read that should answer most questions about the benefits and drawbacks of graphite.     

To be, or not 2B, that is the question...

The "B" after the number is an indicator of hardness.  You want a stick with a B, like 2B or 4B.  

This isn't exactly a new suggestion of how to clean track, MRH covered this quite extensively some time ago. 

Randy

Track cleaning,conductivity

Yes, this subject has been around for years. Some solutions have been proposed for years. It's just the last few months that we've been narrowing it down to a simple solution. I brought up graphite ONLY because it's cheaper than No Ox. Either will do the job. As for soft pencils. I just use whatever cheap pencils I can find. Dollar Store sells 6 or more for a dollar and they will last you one heck of a long time. Or go ahead and buy the sticks. Or No Ox. That's the beauty of these forums. We can discuss the various ways to improve our hobby experience. I like the K.I.S.S. principle and that was/is my approach. Also being frugal. I would also mention that for large layouts, with tunnels, etc. the use of graphite might be the easiest of all. Dab a bit and let your cars spread it through the tunnel. You don't need much. Of course, this assumes you've been able to get the tunnel tracks clean. That's where the track cleaning cars come into play. But as I'm mentioning, graphite doesn't need a special car, just any old car will spread it through the tunnel or along any track. 

A little goes a long way

Just like graphite, with No Ox a little goes a long way so I wouldn't rule it out on cost alone, I had just a few dabs of it in a plastic bag that a friend sent me and  I used it for years while doing N-scale. I finally lost it somewhere before I ran out of it. It does work very well, Linn Westcott usually knew what he was talking about. In a lot of ways, Joe Fugate reminds me of a more modern day Linn. Always researching stuff and experimenting.

I've yet to try graphite. I keep thinking I'll swing in the local Hobby Lobby and pick some up but I've usually got scenery stuff on my mind and I forget.

No Ox or Graphite

Seems to me like you'd want to choose one post-cleaning treatment and stick with it until there was some experience behind the idea of using both together or first one then the other (with a good cleaning in between).

I don't want to be spreading unfounded fear, but has anybody tried both together? Or has anyone switched?

Another question: the video mentions steamer traction tires maybe not doing well  with No Ox - what about graphite? Any problems or worries there? (beyond the general  "it's slippery so may affect traction on grades" worry that isn't specific to traction tires)

Graphite VS traction tyres

Dear EW,

A couple decades experience of graphite VS traction tyres in

- N/HOn30 (Original Minitrains, Bachmann, MicroAce, LifeLike/P2k, Graham Farish)
- HO/HOn3 (MDC, Mantua, Bachmann, LL/P2k, Rivarossi, Lima)

says "No Fear" Re either 

- slipping of traction tyres on wheels (graphite getting between tyre and wheel)

- degradation/chemical-breakdown of the rubber tyre (liquid/petrochemical VS rubber)

I got to graphite after observing and learning from fellow modellers abject failures with other alternatives in head-to-head/side-by-side common operating environments,
(the typical "general public" exhibition circuit makes an excellent broad-range stress-test "proving ground"),

and have never looked back...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

Good to see the word is getting out

Yup

Never tried No-Ox because I tried graphite first and absolutely don't see the need to change now.  Track cleaning is a rare thing for me now and graphite treatment is so easy.

NO-OX vs Graphite

I appreciate the share of the video. As for the graphite idea vs NO-OX, I have no doubt the graphite works well in VERY THIN applications for reasons Joe mentioned above and the the afore mention column. I do not know how graphite works with traction tires, but I would NOT use the NO-OX with traction tires. The primary advantage I see to NO-OX over graphite is that, unless you do scenery work in the area that necessitates re-cleaning, you almost never have to reapply the NO-OX. It virtually eliminates the need for cleaning other than periodic vacuuming or other dusting. Now, I am still in the early phase of testing how long this effect will last. I have read several who have done nothing more than light dusting for years. I cannot fast-forward time, but I will be reporting back as I see how the effect of NO-OX holds up after 2 years, 3, etc.

Ron

Even if you had to apply graphite once in a while, its application is literally seconds.  A quick swipe here and there on the inside rails and that's it.  On a previous switching layout, I operated it once a month or so and had to clean the track almost every time before running.  After graphite, it was nearly two years before I had to do anything.  I have no doubt No-Ox works, but I did graphite first and it worked great and was so easy to do and my $5 graphite stick will last a lifetime.  Its nice we have a couple different options for our particular circumstances.

Mr. Marsh, I have a N scale operations layout like yours too

Hi Ron,

Big Fan of your YouTube Channel,  Never skip an episode.  Maybe we should talk and share ideas, give your some pointers and ideas to help you with your YouTube channel

I have been using a CMX brass tank car filled with Mineral Spirts then follow it up with a rub from a 99.9% Purity Graphite Ingot Block along a few sections of the main track on the layout.  This puts down a very very thin layer of graphite.

I found this to be a highly effective track cleaning solution.

For many years my Train room was separate from the house in a well sealed and fully painted room off on its own.  ZERO Dust (Much like a intel clean room with it's own climate control system).  I never had issues with dust or cleaning the track, it just always worked.  Turn the layout on an just run worked like this for many many years until 2015.

Drywall Dust the enemy of every model railroader... FACT!!!!

in 2015 we added onto the house and enlarged the trainroom.   Now that the house and the trainroom share a common door I do have some issues with house hold dust, (I live in Arizona so we do have Dust).  But I still have issues with drywall dust from the time of construction,  Drywall Dust just never goes away no mater how much you clean.  All walls ceilings floors etc. are painted and sealed.  I normally run one of those dry underbody drag type cleaning cars and it cleans the dust off.  The railroad beyond that runs very reliable and it is N scale just like your layout.  I'm operation focused so running trains with no stalls etc. is the focus and I have that rather pinned down.

Do not leave the graphite block out if running operations with guest who might pick it up and give a swipe on a section of track,  Yes and I have done it my self with the layout on. 

The graphite will shut the layout down faster than any quarter test.

Graphite or NO-OX

I bought an 8 ounce tube of No-Ox 8 years ago and used it on My HOn3 layout just two weeks after I received the tube.  I placed a very small amount on my finger tip and rubbed it on the track every 50 feet of rail for about 2 inches at all 5 spots. I still have an full 8 Ounce tube minus 5 finger dabs from the end and I mean just lightly touch the end of the tube and you have almost to-much. in 8 years I never had to reapply NO-OX.

The time during the Pandemic I decided to tear it out and build a better Railroad. I only cleaned the track with 4 Masonite board equipped box cars that I would run in a unit around the layout once every two or three weeks just from old habits but I never had track electrical problems or stalling at turnouts ever just a little slippage going up a 3.5% grade for the first couple years if and when I had more than 15 cars and only one engine.

Now I'm building ( Track is down and DCC wired ) a new HOn3 layout with all new code 70 and 55 track. I bought a 4B stick of Graphite for .97 cents from Blick Artists supply it's 3" X 1/2" X 1/4" and I did a light application on the inside of the rail as Joe F. explained in his AH-HA video. I dropped the stick on the concrete floor and it bounced and didn't even nick it.

After applying the Graphite I ran the Vacuum over the tracks to pick up anything loose and then I placed the 4 Box Car cleaning unit each with new cleaning boards on the track to make sure the tops of the rails were graphite free and sent them off with one of My larger 2-8-2 engines. Each Cleaner car weighs in at 10 ounces or just under that (I used fishing weights the kind you crimp on the fishing line all flattened out with a hammer so they won't roll around) the extra weight on the car holds the spring backed boards tight against the rail at the same time stops any lifting of the boxcars off the rails.

The blackstone Steam Engines I Use have no trouble pushing the cleaning cars around the entire layout even on the 3.5% grade no slippage on the first run even pushing 40 ounces of weight in front it ran at about 25-30 scale miles per hour around the lower 120 feet then I popped in 4 more boards and set them headed up the track to the upper level. I inspected the first 4 boards and all the was on them was a light pencil line on the first two head end board and almost nothing on the 3rd & 4th board and then the same on the upper level.

That's two weeks of graphite on the inner rails now and I can run these engines at around 5 scale miles an hour or just a bit less speed and have no hesitation, stalling, jumping or any other problem and I love to have smooth operations with easy stops and starts.

Both NO-OX and Graphite work! The Graphite was less messy but you have to physically apply the graphite to both rails on the entire layout. With NO-OX you let the trains spread the NO-OX so it takes less time to apply or should I say less hands on but with using the graphite it seems my engines perform better at very slow speeds and tale less voltage to start an engine moving then when I was using NO-OX.

Dan

NO-OX vs Graphite

I agree that both NO-OX and graphite are good options. I was just sharing the one advantage I see to NO-OX, but both have advantages and disadvantages I see. As stated above, it is good to have options.

Mr. Ron Marsh

Hi Ron,

Did you see my post on what I do,  What do you think?

Big fan of your videos,  I'm N scale too.   If you need some ideas on your YouTube channel you can always ask me for help. 

Graphite

AzBaja: A note on what you said: Leaving the graphite out on the layout. Why? I've found that you can operate for months without having to reapply it. And I suspect you could do the same with No Ox. So, put the graphite aside in a box and only take it out when you actually need it. Don't let anyone touch it except you. Another thought. When using the graphite/or even No Ox, just wipe a bit along the inside edge of one rail at a time.  Just my observation on what you describe.

what about

Mineral Spirits and traction tires? Has anybody had trouble with Mineral spirits damaging tractions tires?

Bob

Mineral spirits VS traction tyres

Dear Bob,

Conceptually I can see why Mineral Spirits VS Traction Tyres would look like a bad idea, another instance of petrochemical VS rubber, leading to rubber breakdown/ perishing...

... the difference between Mineral Spirits and No-Ox/DeOx-it is that

- Mineral Spirits is used/applied in Micro quantities,

- "flashes off"/evaporates very quickly,

- and does Not work by leaving a relatively thick film behind on the rail surface, to interact over sustained contact period with the rubber traction tyre.

(Mineral Spirits function is only as  "cleaner", graphite would be it's "long term rail-coating" partner, which as already discussed, is chemically safe with traction tyres).

Certainly, if you left a traction tyre in a bath of Mineral Spirits, I expect in short-order you'd have a pretty damaged tyre left... but when used as a passing-swipe solvent for cleaning, the amount and sustained-contact required to cause damage just isn't there...

Happy Modelling,

Aim to Improve,

Prof Klyzlr

PS maybe it's because I'm largely a diesel and geared-steam modeller, but how actually prevalent are traction tyres on contemporary models?

Thanks

Thank you for the well explained answer. I greatly appreciate it.

bob

Track Cleaning

I am trying to understand why Russ implies that he has "dirty" track after a few days.  Does not make sense.  But, that's another discussion.

Having built 6 operating layouts in different parts of the US, I have tried most of the products mentioned during the video over the past 45+ years.   My conclusion, about 20 years ago, is stick to "dry."   My biggest concern with No-ox is that dust will adhere to it.   No-ox has a greasy feel to it.  You do not want dust on your rails.  

1. While Russ suggests using a small vacuum as part of his recommended procedure, I would suggest always take a Dirt Devil (or equivalent) and vacuum your exposed track before each op session.   The accumulated dust on the rail is a key culprit.

2. Operate your layout regularly, at least once or twice per month.  I regularly clean my track annually in early January.  Just once a year.  Never ever had any electrical continuity issues.  The most important compliment I listen for after an op session is that my RR ran well.

3. Annual track cleaning.  I believe in dry track cleaning.   I use a  soft track cleaning eraser (the Walther's Bright Boy product is too stiff IMHO) followed by vacuuming with my Dirt Devil.   Then I use 91% isopropyl alcohol to clean the track -  a lot of black will be absorbed by your cleaning cloth.  You may have to make several passes to get most of it up.  I do not like odorless mineral spirits because it is not totally odorless.

All this said, this is what has worked for me for the past 21 years.

Lou Adler, Who is Russ?

Lou Adler,  Who is Russ?

Odorless ... hah!

I don’t know if you have ever noticed, but 91% IPA isn’t exactly odorless either, in fact it stinks worse than the odorless MS! I used to use 70% IPA to wet my ballast before applying white glue and ohhh boy, it really got stinky in there! Using 91% would be even worse because there’s more alcohol content!

Be aware the La Mesa club used to do exactly what you do, use IPA to clean the track and they found the black gunk would build up quickly again with their daily train running. When they moved to mineral spirits, they could cut way back on the cleaning because the black gunk would build up a lot slower.

That’s because IPA is polar, which leaves the metal surface in a state that promotes micro-arcing, which is what creates the black gunk. Mineral spirits is highly non-polar, which leaves the metal in a state that inhibits micro-arching. If you were to use MS instead plus a graphite treatment, I bet you would find your annual cleaning routine is no longer needed.