IMHO... I wouldn't wast time

IMHO... I wouldn't wast time with DCC ready.  At this very moment I've been waiting 3 weeks for a sound decoder that's on backorder to retrofit a bachmann steam.  All the locos I buy now come fully loaded.   Now, it is fun to at least install 1 or 2 decoders with speakers just so you have the skill.   You mentioned ESU.  Those are very good but I think you have to request that someone (manufacturer or hobby shop) downloads the proper sound file.  Where as Tsunami or TCS come pre loaded.  i had a hard time figuring out ESU when I got started.

Depends on the decoder included

I'm standardizing on the SoundTraxx Tsunami2 so if the included decoder is anything else, I'm likely to get a non-decoder equipped locomotive in order to save that money to purchase a T2 with. I do think it's nice that some manufacturers are including wired-in speakers even on non-DCC equipped models. 

Ditto with Jeff

My preferred is TCS' WowSound, so all engines either come with it from the factory, or (more likely) I order it DC-only, then hardwire a new kit in. The other reason I like to hardwire the TCS ones is that they include keep-alives on the motherboard from the get-go, so I don't have to worry about not having them.

What I would do and why....

I would not buy a RTR DCC locomotive because of the built in restrictions. 

1. I want to choose the decoder manufacturer.

2. I want to choose the type of decoder as a 21 pin decoder so that when major hardware upgrades are available I don’t have to unsolder the old decoder and re-solder the new decoder.

3. I don’t particularly want to be soldering around on an expensive decoder. 

4. I don’t want to hassle with soldering to places on the decoder that were not meant to be soldered to.

5. I want to be able to say yes or no to a stay alive of my preference if I even prefer one.

6. I want to be able to choose and install a descent quality to a top quality speaker (or a cheapie until I can afford a good one.)

7. I want LEDs. I want LEDs that are wired with positive as common.  I want LEDs that are bright.

8. I want 8 or 12 lighting outputs that match the decoders available today that are available for easy recognition and ample soldering pads.

9. I want resistors available that are appropriate for connecting directly to readily available wired LEDs.  Sometimes I’d even like two or three different values of resistors in a single locomotive.

10. I want the wires for the LEDs in the shell to be separable easily from the frame and a couple of LED lighting outputs available in the frame if necessary.

11. I want it in a small package that fits easily into a majority of diesel and steam locomotives.

12. I want a decoder that has full function capability.  Not an “oh, you bought the cheap out version.”

Why?  Because I’m particular about things and it’s my railroad..... Ho ho ho.  I fixed those things for me. I’d like to help fix them for you! (See below, I know a guy....)

Depends

It really depends on what YOU want to get out of the decoder/loco combo.  Athearn are shipping with "full feature Tsunami2 decoders" from Soundtraxx. Bachmann only ship with "SoundValue" decoders with limited sound and light functions.  Both brands are excellent running with smooth drives as are most brands today.  Scaletrains operator locos ship with an ESU Essential Sound Unit that has limited functions as compared to a OEM ESU decoder.  I have had good and bad experiences going both routes.  I find that whatever route I take I always end up fully disassembling the unit and either upgrading the lights or sound system (speaker) and usually also add a UPS circuit to it.  All sound units are prone to power interruptions so this is a must on my layout.

I find that if you go the Install it yourself route, you will learn a lot more about the loco mechanism and and available usable space.  My most valuable tool for this is my digital calipers to measure EVERYTHING to make sure things will fit in the allotted space.   Nothing worse than doing complicated fabrication only to find out the shell will not go back on fully.

One option is to start with a DCC sound unit to get your feet wet, open it up and see how the manufacture did the install keeping in mind that THEY designed the chassis around the decoder usually in the PNP style.  This will give you a good head start on how to install your own decoders.

Good luck and let us know !

Nick's item 12

Not all DCC equipped locos come with a decoder that has all the standard features available.  Many are dumbed down versions, and some even have proprietary programming. 

I'm standardizing on TCS

I'm standardizing on TCS decoders with keep-alives, so I'm in the same boat as Juxen. I don't mind soldering and messing with the electronics, but if you don't like that aspect buy it with the decoder.

Lou

We talk about upgrading...

Dear MRHers, 

While I agree with most everything noted thus far, I'm prompted to ask...

...once an install is done, how many modellers _actually_ actively run an proactive "upgrade program" on their fleet?

(IE change decoders "because I want to run the latest" even if it isn't broken, as opposed to addressing a diagnosed terminal-fault "break/fix" failure situation?)

Certainly there have been some high-profile MRH members who have "standardised(and effectively upgraded in the process)" their decoder rosters, (indeed, I picked up a few "surplus due to upgrade" TSU 645-non-turbo decoders from one such member a while ago, and from both Motor and Audio perspectives, am entirely confident that when I get to installing them, they will perform as-well-as their "current version" successors).

And the advent of products such as the ProtoThrottle have been directly responsible for another portion of the community proactively "up/down/cross-grading" to standardise/suit their new operating paradigm,

But for the majority, I'd suggest "it ain't broke, so I'll just keep running trains" is the more-common attitude/experience...

...which is a long-way-round to say:

- Don't be afraid of a hardwired install (assuming it's done properly in the first-place of-course)

- "planning for an upgrade path" may be excessive, esp if the service-life of a properly-done install is measured in decades...

- Choose Once, Choose Wisely, pay the appropriate levels of attention and care during install,

And enjoy the results going-forward...

Happy Modelling,

Aim to Improve,

Prof Klyzlr

. . .

Installing decoders can be a rewarding.

Installing decoders can be a PITA. 

Even if you go with that " GUY " offers,  you still have soldering and other fun things to deal with.  Does this though seem like great fun to you ? 

If you go ESU,  you might as well take it preloaded and installed in your engine, if it comes with it.  Purchasing over the counter requires you purchase other devices which can be a further PITA unless all this tinkering is your idea of fun.  Programming a blank ESU decoder requires more hardware and software and a learning curve.

This from a guy who has installed decoders, speakers, leds in several steam engines and has sort of grown tired of it.

if the engine looks like what you want, go for it.  It may have a zillion options to it, most you will never use. OR it may be simple but fit the bill.

Marc

rtr ver set on track and have fun

i will only bu dcc equipped with sound, unless i can only get said loco as a deep discount on sale rtr unit, in a "special, or odd paint.

as the $ cost of a dcc /sound equipped works out about the same as a rtr then install a decoder.

If they install the decoder,

If they install the decoder, they warrant it and their installation.  IOW, the entire locomotive will be repaired/replaced if they have a replacement and/or parts, and that means decoder, motor, drive, outer works, details.

If you do it yourself, you can be more choosy, but you also bear more risk that they'll balk at replacing/repairing a DIY gone wrong.  Bachmann won't warrant your ESU...only ESU will do that.

Thanks for all the

Thanks for all the feedback.

These were all very insightful responses that gave me a lot to think about. In the end, for this particular loco, I think I will go factory equipped. In that I've never done a DCC/sound install, I want to approach this with some level of confidence. Nelsonb111563 suggested using a factory equipped unit to see how things are installed, and that resonated with me. I don't like do-overs, and seeing a factory install should help with that. I also have two nice running Atlas locos that are DC only, and will be using those to try my skills at installing DCC/sound.

Dave

. . .

Wise choice. And having a known good DCC/Sound engine (as long as it is good) is helpful when starting out. Gives you a good confident building base, a reference as well.

Marc

OP: The question that

OP:

The question that matters:
Do you really "want sound" ??

When I came back to the little trains (after a career on "the big ones"), I thought I'd want sound effects in addition to the performance that dcc offered.

So... the first engine I bought was dcc/sound equipped (Walthers Proto SD9).

There's no doubt it's a fine model, runs well, sounds good, BUT...
...I realized not long afterwards that "sound" wasn't really that important to me.

Since then, I've bought just about all my engines as "dcc ready", only one or two being "dcc, NO sound".
In most cases, it was easy enough to add a non-sound decoder myself.

My advice...
If YOU decide that you have-to-have sound, it's probably easiest to get the loco versions that come with factory-installed dcc/sound. It may not cost any more than "doing it yourself", either.

But if you find that you can "take or leave" the sound, then dcc-ready could save some money...

I am not sure if sound will

I am not sure if sound will be important to me or not.  Buying locos with decoders does reduce the number that I have have to install decoders for dcc operations. So I have been trying to buy DCC equipped when I can afford it.

Unfortunately all the Scale trains locos come with loksound, which I prefer, but Athearn Genesis come with Tsu2.  I don't know how well they play together.  some say you should standardize on one brand but ain't easy if you buy DCC factory equipped.

SoundTraxx and LokSound... not sitting in a tree and not kissing

They'll play okay together as long as a couple of rules are observed:

1. Either set up a deadband on the SoundTraxx to match the "Engine sounds increase before movement" of the LokSound. Or disable it on the Loksound. 

2. Match the momentum. 

3. Forget about higher braking functions. SoundTraxx has Train, Independent, and Dynamic braking. The Loksound has a three stage brake system that is not Train, Independent and Dynamic braking.

4. Drive Hold does not work with SoundTraxx.  Likewise, LokSound does not have Dynamic Digital Exhaust, which is sort of the opposite of Drive Hold. 

In other words, if you only need lights and engine control, you ought to be able to consist them with some efforts. 

ScaleTrains

I'm fairly sure that Rivet Counter ScaleTrains locomotives are equipped with the 21PNEM version of the LokSound 5. Which means that theoretically you can unplug them from the motherboard and plug something else in. The fun begins when you realize that the T2 is too thick on the bottom to fit correctly on the ESU designed ScaleTrains motherboard (a result of American and European standards people not talking, apparently). You also lose some of the lighting functions because of how the LokSound decoder talks to a chip on the motherboard. 

Additional things to think about: the Rivet Counter and the Operator locomotives use the same motherboard, but on the Rivet Counter it has two capacitors soldered to it as a stay-alive. The Operator models do not, and do not have solder pads for a stay-alive, although if you were brave enough to guinea pig a locomotive you could see about using the capacitor mounts. 

I don't know what Athearn has since I haven't purchased any of their locomotives since they went to the T2 (not through dislike, just through lack of need). 

The Athearn that I have

The Athearn that I have needed are SDP40F for my 70s San Francisco Zepher.  Also being a Rio Grande fan I bought a bunch of GP40-2s, almost all dcc ready but plan to buy one with sound/dcc.  

All of the dcc ready ST loco I bought I have ordered lokpilot decoders for.  I seem to be caught between two brands.  For frieght Id prefer to standardize with loksound.  Now if manufactures would only get on the same page!

BTW, what does model railroad goo look like?

Model Railroad Goo

Like the slime from Ghostbusters, but brown and slightly greasier due to the addition of Labelle 108. 

I do have some locomotives with LokSound that are going to stay that way. An Amtrak P42 (the limited run Veteran's Unit), an Alco C425 (owned by someone at the just off-layout rail heritage museum), and a Budd RDC (largely because SoundTraxx doesn't have the RDC in their catalog). There are also a couple of review units from ScaleTrains.com  that I have no reason to change out.

All the rest, which will eventually all be painted and lettered in some fashion for the Willamette Western, are going to be T2 equipped. Eventually... soon, I think. 

I'll try to avoid the goo

I'll try to avoid the model RR goo!

I have gravitated to Loksound because I was impressed by the motor sounds,  but it was Athearn that, for a long time, offered the EMD locos I needed as a Rio Grande fan, such as their SD45s, SD40T-2s, and GP40-2s.  But Tsunami 1 only until more recently.  Many I respected reported that Tsunami 1 had lousy motor control and weak horns. As a result, I bought almost all of them dcc ready and steered clear of Tsu1.

So as you might guess, I have a lot of dcc ready Athearn engines with no decoders.  A layout is under construction so I will need to start getting these ready.

But in recent years Athearn now offers Tsunami2 which I have gotten in a couple of Amtrak SDP40Fs and my Rio Grande Zephyr F9s.  I plan on adding a GP40-2 with Tsu2 shortly as well.  My understanding hopefully is that Tsu2 has addressed some of the shortcomings if Tsu1.

Mix:. OTOH, Walthers and ScaleTrains or offering Rio Grande engines with Loksound such as the SW1200 and SD40T-2.   I have ordered some with sound and those without had ST program lokpilot decoders for those dcc ready.  So far ALL of my ScaleTrains loco are set up for dcc, either sound or non sound ESU.

So as it happens, I have a mix.  Mainly because I don't have a ton of hobby time so it helps to get as many as I can afford factory dcc installed.   

As a result of this migration, I have sold off some of my Athearn tunnel motors as nice as they are.  Plus modeling Grand Junction Co and westward, tunnel motors were fewer although  more were seen as the 80s wore on.  The last two Athearn tunnel motors I bought were dcc/sound equipped SoundTraxx Economi decoders factory installed.  Not sure how good those are, but the price was very modest.  I did end up also with a Genesis GP40-2 factory equipped with a Tsu1, so... Hopefully I won't regret that.

Tsunami 1

The Tsunami 1 took a bit of tuning, but I believe those who took the time to do so got a good running engine. 

Horn sounds I can't speak to. Unless they are out of tune, they tend to sound the same to me. 

Depending if it's a motherboard decoder or a plug-in (likely a motherboard), you can get direct replacement boards from both ESU and SoundTraxx. If you are okay with the clips you don't even need to solder (although I'd recommend it). 

And you can replace those light bulbs with LEDs... getting Athearn to upgrade to a 21-pin board and LEDs when they went with the Tsunami2 is probably the finest thing that Chris Palomerez did for the hobby as a whole. Unfortunately my GP39-2s were from the first run, which was probably one of the last runs to be T1/1.5v light bulb equipped. I've got T2's in them now... and am working on the LED issue. 

I am also a fan of the

I am also a fan of the Soundtraxx units and will be converting everything to those units. I have several different brands of decoders in the fleet and will be doing so gradually. I also am a big fan of Nick's decoder buddy listed above and can say beyond any doubt he has a great idea with it. For maintenance  purposes even if you do not need the additional functionality it provides it is a great idea. I have had a great many different decoders over time and found the ease of programing with decoder pro and Soundtraxx to be a great combination. As you have seen from the proceeding posts nearly every quality decoder maker has its fans and there is not likely a bad choice or wrong choice. But one might be better for you than some of the others.

I would recommend checking the locomotive sounds available from each maker and see if all the locomotives you want sound for are available. When I last checked not all makers of decoders make sounds for all locomotives that you may want. Also I like the idea of putting in my own decoder instead of one that is made to a price point like the ones that come already installed in many cases.

You will be happier in the long run with the same brand of decoder for everything as it will greatly simplify programing and selecting what function button controls what aspect of each locomotive.

As to cost they are all fairly similar in price so not a lot to be gained in economy of dollars but by keeping them the same lots can be gained via the economy of frustration.

 getting Athearn to upgrade

I would hope the sounds on the factory installed decoders are right for the diesels they are installed in.  I have read, at least for the Genesis GP9, that a stripped down version of the Tsu1 was factory installed and didn't have the correct horn in the limited selection for the D&RGW GP9, so I bought DCC ready models.  I'm not sure about the Economi that came with my Athearn SD40T-2's.  

As for same brand, I've heard a lot of people say that.  But the dilemma is I don't have time to install decoders in all of my engines so I'm buying at least some of the factory equipped, so I tend to get what they install.

Can you summarize the decoder buddy features and advantages?

I met Chris P at the WGHS in CantillyVA in Februrary before the pandemic shut everything down.

I read later that he left Athearn to join Caboose hobby shop in Colorado.  But I am now just hearing that they are closing the brick and mortar store - as in for good.  They were reportedly in difficulty last year based on descriptions from visitors (little product on the shelves), but the Pandemic may have been a coup de grace; Maybe Caboose will go online only sales if they remain in business?  I'm not sure what that means for Chris Palmerez.

It depends

As others have said relative to sound.  The other issue for me is the use of a mother board.  That is normally for a clean & easy install.  Which helps during the factory assembly.  This leads to more questionable circuit connections.  

Soldering is extremely easy.  In this hobby, it is a useful skill.

i’m amazed when people talk about buying multiple engines at one time. I’m sure it happens, the the norm is one or two at a time. In that case, even hard wiring is not that much effort.  
 

expect to have to work under the hood for various reasons, so installing a decoder will be simple.  Some DCC ready locos come with the speaker installed, so it may only be the decoder.

again, it all depends,