Design Considerations

Pennsylvania Shortline layout design

Do you own a copy of the book(?s) by. Morning Sun Books about Shortlines of Pennsylvania? It's a great resource. 

Logging Railroad Era of Lumbering Pennsylvania

Do you have any of the book series "Logging Railroad Era of Lumbering Pennsylvania" by Thomas Taber III?  If you don't you need to look for them.  You will be interested in books #1, 2 and 3, particularly #3 "Ghost Lumber Towns of Central Pennsylvania, Laquin, Masten, Ricketts, Gray's Run".

The books have histories, photos, maps, and tons of info.  The most common engines on those logging lines tended to be Climaxes.

PA lumbering

Lumbering in Penna. was different from western lumbering, which is what most people model.  The trees were smaller and all hardwood.  For example at Laquin, there was a chemical company that made alcohol, plus a lumber mill, a stave mill, a kindling mill, and a hub and veneer plant.  Lath mills, clothespin mills and tanneries were also very common.

They tended to use every part of the tree except the shade.

Books!

I love books. The logging books have been on my want list for some time. I keep trying to fine a bargain on the complete set, but I may have to just pull the trigger. The short line books aren’t something I’ve heard about. Are they early 20th century or later era? 

Rachel, Georgia

Carl Arendt!

Hi, Prof. I love the work that Carl had collected and spend a lot of time on the site, even though I have a bit more room to work with than ‘micro’. I gotta say, Rachel, Georgia isn’t one of the layouts that I gave much thought to since I hadn’t really considered a traverser... or looking at designs that are significantly smaller than my available space. At 11.5”x36” with a 24” traverser... stretched out to 24”x96” with 48” of drop-leaf extension... well that really opens things up for some interesting operations. And I do love the idea of a traverser... added to a prototype track plan could really open up some great operational options. 

Nifty!

Pull the trigger

I have a common interest over more on the Forest Co side with the Tionesta Valley and all other associated rail in the area.  More specifically even the B&O Nothern Sub.  

The books are not cheap to buy.  Either focus on the ones in your area first or buy them all.   They are funny.  I have found them for $5 at shows or prices you can’t even touch.  Some people think they are some supper rare documents.  When I see them cheap I grab them.  Those are my loaner copies.  

The books give you a true feel for what you want to do.  

HOn3 will be tough and more expensive.  And the biggest problem is there are no east of the Mississippi narrow gauge equipment made except for EBT hoppers.  I’ve met people who had not idea there was narrow gauge in PA.  Truth is there was a TON.   

I am modeling a freelance version of a railroad which actually existed but it’s true name Is unknown.  It was only known as the PT&E.   Some say it meant Pittsburgh Tionest and Erie.  My version is Porterville (named after my black Lab) tionesta and Erie.   It’s a smalle town logging rr which made it to modern day 1980’s and they then widened the gauge but also kept the narrow gauge tracks.   So is am running dual gauge.  I like it.  It’s not for everyone.  But that’s the fun part about the hobby.   

On30

This sounds like it would work well with On30! If you can find one, the Bachman Climax would fit really well, and the cars are about the same size as HO standard gauge cars, so the track plan would not be that much different in On30. Buildings, however, are much much larger in O scale.

HO or HOn3?

  Both have advantages. HO is cheaper and has better selection of equipment. HOn3 is smaller and would help expand the apparent space. You might model an HO /HOn 3 interchange scene with a freight transfer area               ( between the tracks freight transfer platform,and perhaps a transfer trestle if the narrow gauge loads any minerals, some kind of log or lumber transfer,etc.) The SP Owenyo yard is a good example of  narrow gauge/standard gauge transfer).  I'd also consider standard gauge in N scale to maximize the prototype distance and features possible, I'm not sure how much old time equipment is made in N scale but probably enough given the number of N modelers.....DaveB

Sugar Valley

This sounds like a great subject for your one town layout. Climax and narrow gauge are a great combination so you have a head start. Of course I’m partial to On30 but have a 2:1 ratio of freight cars to engines. Really you only need one good engine. For a road engine consider the roundhouse 2-8-0 kit. 

Following along and would love to see you ideas for furniture level finish of the layout. The concept is good and goes beyond the shadow box / museum look to be part of the room. 

Roundhouse Engines

I wouldn't get a roundhouse kit.  Get one of the current Roundhouse engines in the green boxes, they have waaaaay superior electrical pickup to anything from a kit or the first RTR in the yellow boxes.

Laquin

At Laquin there was a narrow gauge line to a coal min that had a coal dump to the standard gauge railroads.

In the map below (from book #3 of Taber's series), I have highlighted some things with red letters (which turned out way smaller than I thought they would).

• A - Barclay Chemical Co. (alcohol)
• B - Penn. Stave Co.
• C - Penn. Hub and Veneer Co.
• D - Engine house
• E - Laquin Lumber Co.
• F - Schrader Wood Co. (kindling)
• G - Narrow gauge tipple transfer
• H - Depot

By the way, 1905 is a great time to model, since by 1920 pretty much all of this was gone and the railroad had stopped operating.

Same boat... (or train)

Hey All, long time lurker, first time poster.

In the same boat or on the train of thought. I live in Butler, PA just north of Pittsburgh.

Looking at starting a similar project and concept. Tip-Toeing back in the waters after the usual wife and kids thing. Doing in On30, have purchased a couple of engines and cars with an NCE starter set and looking to build a TOMA chainsaw test bed. Thinking 12" - 24" wide starting at 8' - 16' long and eventually up to 40' (baby steps...). I'll be eagerly watching and sharing a bit along the way.

Cheers!

Jim

Tip toeing

Oh I’m tip toeing... WITH two young kids (2 and 3) and a wonderful wife. I’m not yet 40. That’ll happen in 5 weeks. 

Wonderful input so far. Laquin is really interesting. I’ve hunted in the area of Wheelerville and fished the Schrader. Rugged country. Exactly what I’m interested in. 

I’ll post more when I’m home. Tough to write and insert photos from my phone. I’ll get a sketch up of my proposed benchwork, but think 8’ long barrister style bookcase with glass lift-up doors and a drop leaf on one end. Your drop leaf can be as long as you main module is high. So at 50” to the track, you can have a 48” extension that swings up into place. Drop the leaf, close up the doors, and you just have a nice big cabinet in whatever room. 

Looking forward to see what you come up with.

I'v been modeling 1915 Goldfield, Nevada for the past 10 years.  It really is a rewarding and fun way to approach the hobby.  In my experience, the Bachmann 4-6-0 and their 4-4-0 are appropriate for this era.  

Pennsy Short Line

Chuck Yungkurth freelanced the Bellefonte & Snowshoe in HO. He wrote a classic article about his approach in Model Railroader (August 1962?). One of the first to have staging tracks. I reread this article every couple of years.

Pennsy Short Line

Chuck Yungkurth freelanced the Bellefonte & Snowshoe in HO. He wrote a classic article about his approach in Model Railroader (August 1962?). One of the first to have staging tracks. I reread this article every couple of years.

Used to live up on Butler, PA

Jim:

I used to live on Oak St. about 7 blocks from the hospital. If you haven't checked out the local NMRA Division, they would also be a good resource for you to meet other model railroaders.

Kurt Thompson

Arnold, MD

Laquin, S&NY, etc

I believe the sawmill at Laquin was served by the Susquehanna and New York RR. There is an excellent book by Edward L. Kaseman, probably out of print but worth a search.

Further east, there was a 3' gauge railroad into Montrose, PA, that was eventually converted to standard gauge and absorbed by the Lehigh Valley RR.

There were many interesting modeling subjects throughout Pennsylvania.

This should be fun...

Thanks for all the input. Here are a few prototype photos that I take inspiration from:

White Deer & Loganton, Sugar Valley, PA c.1907

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Sonestown, Sullivan County, PA c. 1906

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Volumes 2 and 3 of the logging series are ordered. I just can’t pop for the whole set at the moment. My want list of books is pretty extensive between local history and fly fishing... 

Logging isn’t the only thing I want to represent, so while it will be important in this era and location, there will be so much more to the story. I never really considered that I was doing a ‘logging’ layout, if that makes sense. 

Dual Gauge?

OK, you're killing me. Those are great photos! You have to include the depot scene.

Achievable layouts

I believe in the ‘achievable layout’, ‘one-town layout’, TOMA mindset. Trevor Marshall’s S-scale Port Rowan is almost everything I could want in a layout. If I had the room, that is the style of build I would do. It’s a big inspiration for me. As it is, I’m going to try to achieve something similar in HO or HOn3 in 2’x8’ + 2’x4’ of scenic staging... including a traverser. 

Here’s the type of prototype images and track maps I’ve been researching for the last year. 

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White Deer & Loganton at Loganton, PA c.1907. This is a photo of the prototype and the prototype LOOKS LIKE A MODEL. The viewing distance of the photographer is similar to our viewing distance on a layout. The scenery is modelable and the road heading to the water gap looks like one of Tom Jackson’s or Jim Six’s backdrop tricks. 

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Here’s another view. I haven’t been able to find trackage maps for any of the WD&L, but here at the terminus, not much was happening. Passenger depot, maybe a runaround, team track. There were coal dealers and lumber needs in the valley, so maybe a siding to service a business or two, though I can’t confirm anything. There was supposedly an engine house and a wye for turning the engine, but most photos I’ve seen seem to all show the Climaxes with the smokey end ‘uphill’. Whatever... this image make you think ‘small frontier mountain town’. Achievable. Realistic operations with a good amount of interest? Yet to be seen. 

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Lopez, in Sullivan County, c.1907. Lopez would absolutely make for an achievable, one-station layout for someone with a little more real estate. The depot and interchange with the Jennings Brothers 3’ railroad could probably be done in HO/HOn3 in 2’x8’ + 2’x4’ with a traverser. Or have a lot of fun in that space by modeling the clothespin and broom handle mill. Big logs go in, tiny logs come out. Anyway... here’s a neat colorized image of the LVRR depot and the surrounding trackage. 

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I like searching for small town track plans from the early 1900s, but I’m not very good at it. Lots of towns of the size I’m interested in didn’t really warrant a Sanford survey. And if we’re talking some of the narrow gauge railroads, they were so ephemeral as to have almost no record that they ever existed, except for the resources they cut or dug from the earth. Anyway, I’ve gathered a few that I like.

Muddy Creek Forks, PA. Served by the Ma & Pa. This is a fantastic, attractive, interesting, achievable single-station layout for someone that can encorporate staging on both ends. Or freelance slightly and add a runaround and Bob’s yer uncle. 

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How about Walkerton, Ontario c.1916? This can be modeled in HO in 2’x8.5’ from the No. 9 switch to the bumpers with no compression! Add a 2’x4’ staging as the bridge over the Saugeen River (A cassette made to look like the bridge?) and lots of fun to be had switching a coal shed, a brand new business of some sort (red ‘proposed lease’) an extensive team track, passenger station, freight shed, and livestock. All at the end of a CPR branch. Fun, fun, fun. 

Let me repeat... you can model a real place as it was built 1:1, in HO, in 2’x12.5’ and have prototypical operations. Nifty! 

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I’m having fun, if you couldn’t tell!

Rich in opportunities

Ryan,

There were quite a few interesting shortlines in the area of your interest that served the wood industry. Just north of your focus is galeton, Penna., once the main terminal of the Buffalo & Susquehanna Railroad. Outside of the NYC and PRR lines, it was one of the larger operations in that general area. It became B&O in 1932 and the WAG in the late 1940s.

The Coudersport & Port Alleghany connected with the B&S and operated lighter equipment. 

The Bellefonte Central is a bit further west but deserves a look.

The Pittsburg Shawmut & Northern also ran in that region. There is a small, but active, historical society for this interesting railroad.

An amazing resource is the Planet Smethport website with many historic images of that general area.

As far as modeling, you have a long list of ideas for a 2x8 space. I suspect the list covers a larger overall project but it's important to keep things simple. I find track planning for this size can be easiest with some turnouts, flextrack, and blue painters tape to keep track in place as you determine geometries. If you only have a couple of turnouts, make copies of those so they can be used in planning.

Eric