Tortoises should work fine

Dear Neil,

1 - Tortoises should work fine from a mechanical standpoint, assuming they are installed correctly  

2 - from a "how to _drive_ them" P.o.V., they only eat around 30mA stalled, and less than 15mA when "driving",
so most any accessory decoder should be able to handle them. (Choices ahoy!)

3 - Built-into each Tortoise is 2x S(ingle) P(ole) D(ouble) T(hrow) switches. Use one of the SPDT switches to handle the frog polarity/switching duties, and use the other as the "position feedback" for your proposed future signalling mission.

http://www.circuitron.com/index_files/INS/800-6000ins.pdf

4 - Irrespective of what How the Tortoise is configured, or what capabilities it has,
"track occupancy" is not part of it's mission brief.

To achieve "track occupancy detection" requires entirely seperate systems and circuits

EG - IRDOT for infra-red optical detection,
- or current-sensing detection such as the BD20, - feeding into a "input interface" such as the NCE AIU,
(which converts the raw "there's something there!" signal from the detector into "command speak" for whatever particular DCC system you happen to be using on the layout )

and as such, in the context of "how do I handle the Tortoises?",
don't clutter your mind with "occupancy/detection" thoughts,
detection/occupancy is not the Tortoise's job.

RE Wabbits and Hares

A Hare is a single-channel stationary decoder, designed to plug directly onto a Tortoise.
IE One "Hare" per Tortoise, that's it.
(Think of it as a "Plug N Play bolt-on DCC upgrade" for a Tortoise)

A Wabbit appears to effectively be "2x Hares" in a single unit,
(IE a "2-channel" device, as compared to the Hare's "single channel")

with 2x connectors on flying cables to connect to the (pair of) Tortoises.
IE One Wabbit handles TWO Tortoises (Tortoii?)

In either case, they give the electro-mechanical Totroise the ability to
- have it's own unique DCC accessory address
- react to commands on that address

Does that help?

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

Tortoise (or Tortoii?)

Prof:

Thanks. I'll just stick to the basic job of wiring the machines in place and get them working properly. I found two power supplies and think that the wiring in the pdf is clear enough. I have been using hand thrown Caboose Industries ground throws for so long that this seems overly complicated but I can't reach some of the turnouts! This may turn into new problems down the line but, for now, reliability isi my focus.

On a similar note, I will now need some form of panel or facia diagram to manage these things. I remember an old MR article on Irv Shultz layout where the entire facia was the layout diagram. The current trend seems to be going back to panels around the layout with "tower" type information, card boxes, and industry labels, etc. Too bad someone brilliant hasn't figured out how to integrate the information onto my smartphone. Guess I have to figure out what I want and where. Since it is just me I may put everything up on the valance so that no one is tempted to push buttons to see what they will do. Has anyone else done that? Too much wiring?

Neil

Umauma Railway & Navigation

Smart Phones App?

But it has been integrated (or linked) to your smart phone. WiThrottle on Apple devices and Engine Driver on Android devices can handle switches. All you need are decoders to drive the Tortoises, a PC, PC connected DCC system, JMRI, Wireless Router and the app for your smart phone. Simple

Tortoise (or Tortoii?)

I believe the correct plural is Tortellini.

John

WiThrottle and Tortellini

Panels and Diagrams

Neil,

Check out a gentleman with the youtube name of arthurhouston3. I think he has a whole series of videos on

just what you might be looking for. He is the owner-operator of the Grande Pacific Railroad.

Ok back to Tortious(es)

Well now I am in a pickle as it seems my hard headed foray in the dead rail society has left me coming up shorted (pun intended). Since I no longer need to lower the frogs this will be somewhat simpler. I need to control many of my switches remotely and (again for those who are new to this discussion) I have inherited a number of tortious machines so may as well try to use them. Needless to say I did not directly holes for actuators or wires so am at a loss of where to begin. 

Has anyone surface mounted these in hidden areas?

Can I use these machines "offset" with a bent wire or spring rather than drilling directly under the already installed switches?

In the past I've had wire actuators 90 degrees to the throw bar and basically replace my ground throws as you might do with an under table slide switch. I'll play with a mound for the machine to see how this might work mounted on it's side. 

For controls I like the Berrett Hill touch triggers with my Tam Valley device so may be able to integrate someone this with JMRI at some point - finally!

Neil

There are a couple of places

There are a couple of places on the club layout where that has been done I can locate one picture and I will take a few more that are detailed shots in the next few days and post them for you.

I believe you might be able to click on it and then zoom in on the image.

Late in the Game

Hi Neil,

It seems you've already worked through all of this, but for what it's worth, here's a diagram of how I wire my Tortoise machines.  The toggle switch Tortoise machine provides the resistance needed by the two bi-color LED's so you don't need separate resistors.  Wired as shown they each alternate between red/green showing you the path chosen.  You can mount the switch and LED's in a control panel or the layout fascia.

That leaves two sets of contacts.  One I'm using to control frog polarity.  The other, I'm using to draw the S/MINI pin to ground and trigger my JMRI layout panel.  So, when a switch is set against a route, the signal associated will go red.  It works great!

A friend came over and discussed Tam Valley's Frog Juicer with me.  I mainly went with the Tortoise so I could control frog polarity, but I really like Caboose ground throws.  Turns out, it would have been cheaper, and easier, to install Caboose ground throws, and control frog polarity with the Frog Juicer.  Oh well, hindsight and all that.

About the LEDs

Controlling the Staging Turnouts

I used the Digitrax DS64 to do exactly this.  The DS64 is basically 4 stationary decoders in one, but with some extras.  Each DS64 will control up to 8 Tortoise machines, using the 4 outputs (you can run two machines from one output).  You can also program internal routes and define a "switch" to run them.  I am controlling 9 turnouts and have set up a route for each of my 5 staging tracks.  

I can run the routes and select a staging track from my Digitrax throttle.  I can also change the switches individually.  But I built a staging control panel with push buttons, connected to the DS64.  Pressing a button runs one of the routes and selects a staging track.

Having all that done, and since I like to play with electronics, I built a panel in JMRI and served it up on the JMRI Web Server.  Then I opened it on my iPad.  Then I can tap a track on the panel, and it runs the route and selects that track.  It's pretty cool, but everyone in my club thinks I'm crazy.  They're probably right . . . 

The Panels

Hi again Neil,

Here is the control panel that runs the staging, plus the JMRI panel on the iPad that can do the same thing.  Mainly I use the physical panel and buttons, because I think it's cool.

LED's

Thanks Michael!

These really need to get done, despite the many projects that so easily divert my attention, as my staging area is hard to work in and doing this after-the-fact will not be any easier

The experimenting​ Arduino project related to staging is started and I am following Peter's lead with help from Goeff Bunza to provide routes and occupancy indication also my with DCC control via a throttle or JMRI. Exciting stuff.

Neil

I have...

....mounted tortoises on top of the benchwork up to about 24" from the turnout. I buried a length of brass tube with a steel wire inside. Worked fine. I put some KD Greasem on the wire before threading it in the tube.

I saw a layout in Australia which had all the Tortoises mounted on top BEHIND the back drop. Easy access from a small aisle. He used a similar system using model aircraft push rods.

@ Neil

Hi Neil,

Starting with a Tortoise was the first major win for you.  

Mounting a Tortoises to move a throw bar the way you want it is only proportional to the thickness of the wire you need to make it happen.  I’ve used the next size piano wire up. (Sorry I’m away from home and can’t make a measurement.  I’ve complained to Circuitron about the thickness of their throw rods. Sorry also that I can’t show another “weird” position (not karma sutra....) of the green box.)

The electrical / electronic possibilities are far ranging with the dpdt switches in the Tortoise.

Let your imagination roam.

Nick

First thing first

I thought it might interest others that I decided on a control for my remote tortoise machines using three position guitar selectors. These are to be arranged to look like a tower operator control stand and may even have a "cabin" over them to conceal the switches from stray little hands. The LED's will provide lighted lanterns on the switch stand for a visual indicator of the position.

Nick: I am also not at home right now but will post a picture when I can. I also got some switch locks so will install these below the levers to enable the circuit to work. The switch key will be nearby but the idea of someday adding some automation to trains is appealing for this lone wolf operator. 

That sounds cool . . .

Hi Neil,

That sounds like a cool solution!  Do you have photos?  I'd like to see that in action.

I read back through this thread.  Dave's description of the tortoise wiring and how it works is spot on.  I realized I have a diagram of the wiring method, for what it's worth.  Here's a copy for your reading pleasure.

Neil this is a bit off

Neil this is a bit off subject but your comment about procrastination brought back a memory. A coworker had a book on his desk that was titled procrastination. I said Jerome how did you end up with a book on procrastination? "He said my mother gave  it to me" I said "how is it?" He said" I don't know I haven't gotten around to reading it yet." He then said "I hate you Rob." while doing a face palm.

Anything goes here

I don't even mind talking about railroad related politics but I'm pretty opinioned and have a "mark as spam" button so don't contradict me! (lol - kidding of course).

Rob - a while back I used to carry a small token that had "Tuit" printed on one side. Whenever someone said that they would have to get "around to it", I'd offer mine

Michael - I got a couple dozen bi-color, three pin, led's to try instead of two different color led's. I hope that this will be a simpler installation. Of course my frogs are not powered (my rails are not powered either ...) so the routing isn't required but I hope others find it useful.

Procrastination

I was going to procrastinate once but I never got around to it.

Round Tuit

I’ll send you one Bill when Brillinger starts taking orders again. Collectible MRH round Tuit for those days that need a reminder to get off my okole. 

Thank you Neil.  I do have a

Thank you Neil.  I do have a 4" to 5" round piece of cardboard that says TUIT on it.  I just forget to use it.

On a serious note, I hope your hand is healing without causing you too much discomfort.  

Take care,

Hand Injury

Thanks again Bill. I'm headed up to the physical therapist in about a 1/2 hour. I guess I've been overdoing the exercises since (now) my fingers are becoming numb! She said "You are one of those overachiever, aren't you?"

Aside from this site, YouTube, and an occasional Netfix with with Mrs. E. I don't watch much television (none actually) and would rather be building or ruining a perfectly good car kit. Lately, I have been making hats for my c1900 figures to go into the excursion car. Why are all the figures sold only facing forward? Is there a model church hobby forum that promotes pew figures? 

@Neil

Round TUIT.  I LOVE that, and I'm going to make one for work.  It will come in very handy when I get around to it.

As an aside, those are two lead, bi-color LEDs in my drawing, not single color.  With the switch in one direction, one will glow red and the other green.  When you throw the switch, the polarity reverses and the colors reverse too.  And the switch machine moves too, of course.

Glad you're healing!  Take it easy so you can keep on modeling!