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Limited Modeler: Importance of historical reference Magazine feedback
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Reply 9
Virginian and Lake Erie Super User 9,224 posts
Virginian and Lake Erie

Another winning article Jim.

Another winning article Jim. The historical research can almost be a hobby in itself. It is interesting how you illustrated the link between modelers and manufacturers that results in better accuracy of the models. I think the job you and Accurail as well as other contributors are doing is commendable. I suspect some of those 40 footers could have lasted into my era and might be worth modeling. I have always liked the double sheathed wood box cars for some reason.

Now in this case you are dealing with the NYC the topic you raise can deal with nearly any railroad and location. I have been doing the same for my area of Wheeling, Wva. and the railroads that operated there as well as others that interest me.

You mention being a prototype modeler but this same approach is also important to those of us that were influenced by and caught the free lancing bug inspired by model railroads like the V&O. I would say it might be more important to those of us in the later group as it is not simply a buy your models and put them on the layout as in more strict prototype disciplines. One must also understand what the railroads were doing in the particular time period and what the neighboring lines had at the time.

Great thoughts for all and a way to keep from buying the equipment that does not fit with era and location chosen. After all limiting things to what fits is a key concept of the limited modeler discipline and makes the hobby more affordable in both time and money.

Rob in Texas

MRH Blog / Prep for an Operating Session / Delving Into the Past / The Club Blog / Youtube / etmrc.org
Reply 3
LensCapOn Regular poster 454 posts
LensCapOn
Your series continues to be disruptive to my modeling as it creates interest in an era and region to which I claim no interest in modeling.  Often the best piece in the issues in which it has run.

To be fair the period of 36' & 40' freight cars and no interstate trucking has huge operational advantages, and you've grown my interest to the point the search for more information has come. There is this interesting database I don't think, could be wrong, you've mentioned. Claims to be of ALL NYC freight cars by lot number linked with drawings and occasional photos. I have used it to adjust the heights of those Micro Trains cars I really didn't need so they match better the non M-T cars I also didn't need that have a scale height. And the images are cool!

https://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/NYC-MODELS-FREIGHT.htm
Reply 0
Eric Hansmann Eric H. MRH Contrib. Editor 905 posts
Eric Hansmann Eric H.
LensCapOn, as you go further down the rabbit hole of earlier modeling, find an Official Railway Equipment Guide (ORER) for your era. The freight car fleet of each railroad is documented, including car heights.

Many of the pre-1920 editions can be found online using a Google search. Even if this predates your focus, they can be very handy. Many of the freight cars documented in earlier editions were in service 10-20 years later.

Eric

Eric Hansmann
Contributing Editor, Model Railroad Hobbyist

Follow along with my railroad modeling:
http://designbuildop.hansmanns.org/
Reply 1
p51 Super User 3,137 posts
p51
I haven't read this because to be blunt, I can't afford to pay for all the online content I'd like to view/read every now and then.
Now that said, I can imagine what it says. Anyone familiar with my own work knows that I'm a stickler for historical accuracy. I guess it stems from a lifetime of historical re-enacting (I haven't worn a historical uniform since the pandemic started, the longest stretch of my life with never having done so, since I turned 5 years old) but I was raised in a household where everyone was into history.
I have never understood the "I just run what I wanna run" mindset that is dominant in the hobby. To each his/her own, of course, but it just doesn't make sense to me.
After all these years, I keep trying to roll my eyes when I see someone talking about modelling the "transitional era" by running GEVOs pulling heavyweight Pullmans. Nope, when you mix eras, you're actually modelling the latest year that the models are supposed to be from.
Adhering to an era can save you a lot of money. The temptation to but all kinds of stuff just because you like it is easier to fight when you know it doesn't make any sense to do so due to era (and if you really are disciplined, the locale as well).
I guess in my case, it's even easier that I model narrow gauge, as there are of course no interchanges to 'justify' foreign power and rolling stock. But still, the only rolling stock I have that doesn't get run is just excess that is still quite useable for the time and the place (I just don't have the room to put it all on the layout at once).
Within the hobby, this seems so rare. So therefore, I'm always heartened to see when people adhere to an era and location.
Lee

[35532433422_1a63689aeb_n]

My Flickr website with layout photos

https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/etwnc-stoney-creek-branch-12197690?&trail=25

You can never have too much detail or too many trees!
Reply 4
Virginian and Lake Erie Super User 9,224 posts
Virginian and Lake Erie
Interesting thing at my local hobby shop last weekend while running some errands I found a 40 foot Accurail double sheath box car that looked lonely. There were also some 36 footers but I did not pick up any of them. I can get that 40 footer into my era barely but would need to back date for the 36 footers I found. I just might feel compelled to do that after a while. You see I have discovered a way to do that. It was not my idea but Joe F's idea. He would periodically change the year modeled on his layout to cover a 10 year span. I think that might be an interesting idea. Instead of 1959 only I might do 1954 to 1964 and not have much change in anything but rolling stock and automobiles. So far I have not deviated from my 1959 era but you guys are throwing temptation my way and it might happen. I might have to go with 57 to 62 instead as that is a smaller change. The problems you guys are causing me.....

Rob in Texas

MRH Blog / Prep for an Operating Session / Delving Into the Past / The Club Blog / Youtube / etmrc.org
Reply 1
LensCapOn Regular poster 454 posts
LensCapOn
Eric Hansmann  Eric H. wrote:

Many of the pre-1920 editions can be found online using a Google search. 
Eric


I am not finding equipment guides freeby on line, just passenger train schedules.  There are complete maps and station lists and distances so there is some use to them, just not the one you are talking about.

 Search engines have changed and they do not provide a complete listing anymore or even seem to search for what you asked.  The guide to NYC freight cars  was not found by any search engine but from following links through several sites. If there was a good search engine that provided reliable results for whatever was requested I would be willing to pay an annual fee.
Reply 1
Eric Hansmann Eric H. MRH Contrib. Editor 905 posts
Eric Hansmann Eric H.
LensCapOn, the Official Guide is not the same publication as the Official Railway Equipment Register. Use quotation marks to narrow your search "Official Railway Equipment Register" and many will appear in your results, especially on Google Books and the Hathi Trust.

What year is your focus? Many years before 1920 are available to review and possibly download on line. Later editions are mostly not available online due to copyright issues, even though these are not copyrighted books.

The NMRA reprinted editions from 1943 and 1953 and paper copies can be bought through the NMRA Store.  Westerfield Models offers several editions on DVDs.

Eric

Eric Hansmann
Contributing Editor, Model Railroad Hobbyist

Follow along with my railroad modeling:
http://designbuildop.hansmanns.org/
Reply 1
Robert J. Thomas rjthomas909 Regular poster 325 posts
Robert J. Thomas rjthomas909
@LensCapOn, 

Here is a list of pre-1920 ORERs that someone shared with me, available online.   Not sure if all links are current.  I think most are on Google Books.   

-Bob T.

---

Robert J. Thomas
Reply 0
RichardStern Active Member 36 posts
RichardStern
Very nice work. I really like your weathering technique, which seems to minimize the cast on grabirons. Some details on how that’s done would be appreciated. 
Reply 0
JamesSix MRH Columnist 1,435 posts
JamesSix
Thanks guys for all of your messages referring to my December Limited Modeler column. Feedback like that keeps me enthused about building my new layout portraying Monroeville, Ohio in the early 1900s. Because the layout will be relatively small I will not need a lot of locomotives and rolling stock. This will allow me to pick a year (from 1905 through 1925) to operate in for any given operating session, then put the appropriate models on the layout for the session. This is very appealing to me.

I am very pleased to be able to add staging for through trains to operate on the layout. This will definitely interfere with my featured way freight and its ability to switch Monroeville. There are plenty of customers in Monroeville to be switched, spotting cars, picking up cars, moving cars about, and picking up and moving cars that through freights leave in the yard for the way freight to deal with. An operating session like this while not running a railroad or even a division of a railroad, is nonetheless really appealing to me. This is the part of the hobby I enjoy most.

This is my Monroeville layout plan just prior to beginning construction.

Thanks again,
Jim Six
layout plan 4.jpg 

James Six
Fremont, Ohio
Reply 0
LensCapOn Regular poster 454 posts
LensCapOn
JamesSix wrote:

layout plan 4.jpg 


Looking at the revised plan I think the B&O interchange could be jiggled so it continued into the holding yard/run around area. That should make loading cars onto and off the interchange much easier.

 In a related question, if the possible B&O layout goes directly under the Monroeville one would you use a vertical lift mechanism to move between the two levels. I just remember the NO HELIX line from the article. 

 Your layout planning makes a lot of sense. It's small enough to complete. Looks to be fun to operate. With the run around/holding yard you can parade trains, which I think we all love.  Finally there is no limit to the refining and detailing that can be done on a layout.  Enjoy!
Reply 0
JamesSix MRH Columnist 1,435 posts
JamesSix
Ya know LensCapOn, . . . I find your suggestion for the B&O interchange intriguing. I could do something like this. Not sure how much it would gain for me though. I might be able to curve it around into the main staging yard.

I guess, the question is, do I need/want a dynamic interchange with the B&O where both the B&O and the LS&MS can spot/pickup cars on the interchange track, or will a semi-static interchange do where only the LS&MS trains will spot cars/pickup cars from the interchange track? I don't want to get greedy, but I also don't want to pass up a good opportunity either!

Thanks!
Jim layout plan 4 with B&O mod.jpg

James Six
Fremont, Ohio
Reply 0
burgundy Active Member 86 posts
burgundy
I am building a layout on a rather more modest scale, following a UK prototype, but with the aim of "watching the trains go by".   
As a way to increase the amount of rolling stock available,  I have added a 6 foot long traverser at the back of the layout. This gives me 8 roads in which to store stock that can be aligned immediately with the running line. 
4 traverser.jpg 
6 traverser.jpg 
6 feet may not sound long for US freight trains, but, for a layout set in the UK in the 1870s,  it will allow me to run 20 wagon coal trains, which look quite impressive.   
The traverser was built from two laser cut plywood kits for 3 foot traversers, which bolt together. 
Best wishes 
Eric  
Reply 0
Bshoop Super User 1,395 posts
Bshoop
Eric Hansmann  Eric H. wrote:
LensCapOn, as you go further down the rabbit hole of earlier modeling, find an Official Railway Equipment Guide (ORER) for your era. The freight car fleet of each railroad is documented, including car heights.

I couldn't agree more. They are some of the absolute best and most valuable sources of reference I use when decalling models, or when I'm looking at a model I'm interested in buying, so I can see how accurate that model really is, etc.
I like to look at models that I newly acquired, and cross-reference them in the ORERs just to see how accurate their data stenciling and stuff really is on the model.
1 have one from 1959, and one each from every year between 1965 and 1976. Being a quarterly publication, I wasn't typically too concerned with which quarter of any particular year I got it from as long as it wasn't the last quarter of the previous year into the first quarter of the next year. The only one I was very specific about was my January 1976 issue. As I model a few Northeast railroads right up to before Conrail, because it is quarterly, January would have been the last entry those roads would have had while they were still independent.

Eric
Reply 0
Bshoop Super User 1,395 posts
Bshoop
That being said, short of buying all four quarters of each year you are interested in, there can and will be little gaps. Say you have the January issue of one year, and the October issue of the next year. If they either acquired or dropped equipment from sometime between then, there will be little gaps where it will not show up in one of them. In those rare instances you can either "live with" the fact that you can only narrow it down, or you would have to collect every single quarter of every year, in which case you would only be tightening up that information gap.
Reply 0
Tim Moran Speed-Mo Tim Frequent poster 767 posts
Tim Moran Speed-Mo Tim
JamesSix wrote:
Ya know LensCapOn, . . . I find your suggestion for the B&O interchange intriguing. I could do something like this. Not sure how much it would gain for me though. I might be able to curve it around into the main staging yard.

I guess, the question is, do I need/want a dynamic interchange with the B&O where both the B&O and the LS&MS can spot/pickup cars on the interchange track, or will a semi-static interchange do where only the LS&MS trains will spot cars/pickup cars from the interchange track? I don't want to get greedy, but I also don't want to pass up a good opportunity either!

Thanks!
Jim layout plan 4 with B&O mod.jpg

Jim,

I think the addition of more interchange will be a "cheap" investment for a little more operation and also a great photo opportunity location. The only additional thought about the active interchange is to be able to "hide" the end of the track in the staging area. Thinking 1 or 2 car lengths.

Thanks for sharing this railroad's development here!

Tim Moran Akron, OH

My blog: https://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/21964

My YouTube channel : https://www.youtube.com/user/wrfreemo2006

Thanks for looking!
Reply 0
joef MRH Founder 17,406 posts
joef
One last suggestion ... I'd plan on scenicking the offstage areas too with at least a basic blue backdrop and with ballasted track and some simple scenery. That will reduce the shock factor in the transition from off stage and on stage. With any staging I'm doing on SL2, that's the plan. To scenic it all at least somewhat.

Joe Fugate​
Publisher, Model Railroad Hobbyist magazine

[siskiyouBtn]

Read my blog
Reply 0
JamesSix MRH Columnist 1,435 posts
JamesSix
Joe,

I will do some kind of transitional scenery around the curves at each end of the layout as you say, to soften the transition so not to be too much of a shock!  I talked over the added B&O interchange area with Tom Johnson this afternoon and he agrees that I should do it. My thanks go to LensCapOn for the suggestion. With the prototype, the side of the B&O away from the aisleway was a wooded area, so I will use trees there to hide the curved tracks into the staging yard.

That sure does not have to be your last suggestion, Joe. All suggestions are welcome.

Jim

James Six
Fremont, Ohio
Reply 0
JamesSix MRH Columnist 1,435 posts
JamesSix
Tim,

I will hide the end of the B&O with trees and structures. There was a feed mill alongside the B&O where I have it ending at the bottom right of the plan. That, and some trees will help hide the end of the B&O track. At the top where the B&O runs into the backdrop there was a hotel on the left and the B&O/W&LE depot at the right of the B&O track. They will help to hide the track end there. 

I am glad to say that I have a modernized B&O 4-4-0 that is perfect for 1905 - 1925 that I can use to spot cars off the B&O onto the interchange track. It can also pick up cars there and put them into the train sitting on the B&O main. This is really getting interesting.

I really appreciate your feedback Tim and everyone.
Jim

SEE ATTACHED

James Six
Fremont, Ohio
Reply 1
JamesSix MRH Columnist 1,435 posts
JamesSix
Is historical meaningful to any of you? If so, in what way(s)?

Just curious,
Jim

James Six
Fremont, Ohio
Reply 0
Eric Hansmann Eric H. MRH Contrib. Editor 905 posts
Eric Hansmann Eric H.
Modeling an historical moment becomes a blend of many things in order to convey a certain moment in time. For me, freight cars define my November 1926 moment in a few ways.

I focus on building freight cars that reflect the designs and lettering of that moment. I avoid purchasing freight cars with hardware that isn't proper for that era. I shy from any freight car with Dreadnaught steel ends, or stamped Murphy rectangular panel roofs, or Youngstown corrugated steel doors.  To my eye, they indicate a later period of time. There were a few freight cars with Youngstown doors among the national fleet, but the numbers pale. Dreadnaught ends came into use on a few car orders very late in 1926. They become more common on new cars in 1927. 

My freight car mix needs to reflect the needs of the online customers. Some folks have a pickle car or two, I might need a dozen of three different designs. One of the larger customers on the future layout will be the HJ Heinz plant in Pittsburgh. They were using two different designs by November 1926. Additionally, there were two other pickle producers on the same branch, so I'll need a couple more than just the Heinz cars. I'll also need a few vinegar tank cars, too. These specialty cars are outside the norm for most layouts, but their addition to my freight car fleet establishes the locality and industries.

Busy freight houses and team yards are an indication of an earlier era, too. Some with horse, or ox, drawn wagons and early autos and trucks ready to pick up the goods.

An awareness of these elements, and more, will help me create a layout that is more a window into a forgotten moment a century ago.

Eric

Eric Hansmann
Contributing Editor, Model Railroad Hobbyist

Follow along with my railroad modeling:
http://designbuildop.hansmanns.org/
Reply 3
William Burg Regular poster 161 posts
William Burg
Getting back into model railroading circa 2003 started a domino effect of falling deeper into historical research: becoming a volunteer docent at railroad museums, joining historical societies and preservation organizations, writing local history books, eventually leading to a graduate degree in public history and changing careers from social work to historian! All of which was interesting, but definitely interfered with my original "playing with trains" plan. Over time my layout has started traveling backwards in time; my original plan was to model the Sacramento Northern in the 1960s, since I have an interest in small diesels and their motive power was almost entirely switch engines, plus electric traction is a niche area of the hobby that didn't interest me much when I was a kid so I never looked much into it. But over time I got more interested in electric traction, which drew me more towards modeling the 1950s, after the end of passenger service but during the "transition era" when electric freight motors and early diesels growled around Sacramento's streets moving freight. And then as I've delved more into early 20th Century history, and I slowly acquired a respectable collection of brass interurbans and streetcars and the skills to restore them (if not enough skills to repower them with DCC...yet) I've started to move the layout backwards into the 1940s or potentially earlier (passenger service ended in 1940.)

In practice, I now have justification for two sets of rolling stock and motive power, or maybe more like one and a half--a certain number of 1950s/60s locomotives, mostly SN's eclectic collection of hand-me-down Western Pacific diesels, and era-appropriate rolling stock, alternating with the early 1900s-1920s steeplecabs SN used prior to de-electrification (which in Sacramento was 1953) and interurbans of the pre-1940 ages. Although I also justify periodic passenger operation as "fan trips," which are technically more prototypical than regular operaton; I model a freight belt that wasn't used for passenger service except for local streetcars (until 1946), but was occasionally chartered by railfan organizations for tours, including operation of old streetcars brought to Sacramento for that purpose. The earlier motive power also justifies the purpose of older rolling stock appropriate to the Great Depression era--wood sides, queen posts, arch-bar trucks etcetera.

In terms of layout elements other than the trains, most of the industries and buildings are based on prototypes built well before the 1940s, with the exception of one 1950s tilt-up concrete warehouse, so the built environment is pretty identical, and some prudent hunting has helped build up my stock of pre-WWII and late 40s automobiles to alternate with hot rods and 1950s Detroit steel. Other than a few business names, there weren't that many changes during the 1930s-50s era in many parts of the city--the late 1950s heralded redevelopment that radically altered the face of downtown (and removed the railroad I model from almost all of its street running.)

Modeling multiple era also allows demonstration of change over time--I occasionally host open houses, and could set up era-specific trains to give my visitors a trip through time!

All of this is also a wonderful excuse to expand my purchases to more than just one era; having a very specific modeling focus and prototype otherwise is a great help to limit (if not entirely present) enthusiastic acquisition of something that clearly doesn't belong on the layout, but one must allow for a little flexibility--especially if there's justification.

Nice article, too--I appreciate its historical perspective!
Reply 1
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