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Reply 0
ratled

Another winner Lance

Thoroughly enjoyed the article Lance.  Wouldn't it something if you and MTV could get together and do a combination of a How To and Live ops! based on the concept of this article.

 

Steve

Reply 0
AndreChapelon

Three or four times a year?

Lance's comment about multi-operator sessions may be true for many layouts, but there's at least one layout I know of (being part of the regular crew) that operates twice a month. You get really good really fast when there are 24 operating sessions/year. You also get to fill every operating position available rather quickly.

Most layouts I've seen aren't really designed to be operated by single operators. While one can certainly run trains, true operation isn't really possible. A layout designed so that in can be operated by a single operator isn't really amenable to multiple operators other than perhaps 2 people. I found it telling that when Lance mentioned an operating session, he mentioned a single guest operator, not a cast of several.  I assume in this case, that one person served as engineer and the other as conductor.

Layouts capable of single operator operation are pretty much limited to the shortline "Mixed Train Daily" of Beebe fame, industrial, switching layouts like Lance's Downtown Spur, or perhaps even something like the branchline of a Class 1 railroad like Jared Harper's Alma Branch of the AT&SF, SP's Friant Branch, or even Maine Central's Bucksport Branch (essentially serving a single customer - a paper mill) which saw 2-3 trains/day, but not at the same time. The nice thing about the Bucksport Branch is that it's still in business and could be modeled from the steam era all the way to the present day.

Mike

 

and, to crown their disgraceful proceedings and add insult to injury, they threw me over the Niagara Falls, and I got wet.

From Mark Twain's short story "Niagara"

Reply 0
kc5gxl

Best layout size for ops

Great article Lance! I am in the planning stage and this really helps me plan.

 

Thanks,

 

GT Dan

Modeling the GTW circa 1976ish in Orange Texas                                                                                             If at first you don't succeed, maybe you shouldn't try sky diving!

Reply 0
Joe Atkinson IAISfan

Excellent

Really an excellent article Lance.  I think you're breaking new hobby ground with your focus on realistic operation with appropriate pauses, and how that shrinks the size of the layout we might want.  I know I overbuilt for my needs (layout plan at http://www.iaisrailfans.org/gallery/Sub4WestEnd/LayoutPlanMRP2011_001 ), as I now realize I could have gotten by fine with just modeling either Bluffs Yard and Council Bluffs (urban operations) or just McClelland/Hancock/Atlantic (rural).  However, now that all the track is operational, I'm just going to keep pushing ahead and enjoying the additional variety.

Reply 0
SDL39FAN

Best layout size using ops timing

An excellent article for someone who has yet to build their layout which I believe was the focus of the article.   I have two of Lance's books, how to design and how to operate a switching layout and I have become enlightened as to how to have realistic operations.  

If you are not sure what you are looking for in your layout I suggest reading Lance's books and reviewing his website to help you decide what to do.  I also believe that there are far more people in the hobby that are lone wolves than those with large numbers of friends or belong to a club so Lance's ideas will resonate with a majority of model railroaders.

Michael Osweiler

Waseca, MN

Reply 0
arthurhouston

Great discussion RR built for Operations

Think of all the possibilities. Another example is ethonal plant. You need tank cars to remove finished product. You need grain cars to bring corm. You also need gasoline tank cars, because the ETHONAL much have 2% added before shipping. You need box cars to bring yeast in. Yeast for this process is shipped in boxes. So palletized loads of yeast. You need hoppers any type to haul dried up leftovers away to feed lots from animal feed. They use any hoppers. They put plastic covers over open type to keep DDGS in hoppers. Five locations for five different type of cars.
Reply 0
Denvermar

Great Guidance

Excellent article, I too am in thee planning stage and this great to help to create a realistic layout with lasting enjoyment.

Reply 0
kcsphil1

Moving to the European model

All the excellent European FreeMo stuff not withstanding, this article points a lot to how our across the Big Pond colleagues have approached modeling for a long time.  While many of them build small because they have to, they also build realistically so that  operations mimic the prototype in the small space they have.

Philip H. Chief Everything Officer Baton Rouge Southern Railroad, Mount Rainier Div.

"You can't just "Field of Dreams" it... not matter how James Earl Jones your voice is..." ~ my wife

My Blog Index

Reply 0
Brian Clogg

operation

I have to agree with Mike. An operating layout is more than switching. The traffic has to come from somewhere so there are through freights. There are unit trains and passenger trains. Sometimes there are helpers and there are also locals which do switching.There are yards to make up and breakdown trains. All this is part of an operating railway.

 We operate the CWR once a month. I know there are layouts that run more often. It takes 12 people to run the railway. We need 2 yardmasters and a dispatcher. Sometimes I will run a train or do switching on my own but many layout owners never run trains between sessions.

Switching is great and I enjoy it but there is more to an operating railway

Brian Clogg

British Columbia Railway

Squamish Subdivision

http://www.CWRailway.ca

Reply 0
TimGarland

Operating like a Pro!

Lance, I have to say I thoroughly enjoyed your article and have been a frequent visitor to your website for sometime now. Your work order is set up just like the prototype. I know this because I started working for NS back in 1996 as a conductor and used to fill them out everyday. I've been an engineer now for quite a while and I can honestly say it is not unusual for me to come home after running a mile and a half long freight train for 157 miles and head down to the basement to switch cars in 1/87 scale. I find my mini operating sessions relaxing after a long day at work! On the railroad we have two types of industries. Open gate customers and closed gate customers. The difference between the two are that closed gate customers order in their cars by number whereas open gate customers get their cars on arrival, space permitting. Sometimes a conductor will leave extra cars hanging out on the lead or another nearby track until space becomes available. Most closed gate customers ship and receive private marked cars such as covered hoppers and tank cars. These cars usually sit in a nearby local serving yard until the customer orders them in. Often these industries have specific spot locations as more times than not each car is filled with a different type or grade of product. A plastic pellet industry for example may have six or eight spots. It can take a while to switch one of these places out! Another in house industry that is seldom modeled is a clean out track and a rip track. If modeled, these two types of tracks would be a great place to send your model rail cars for upgrades and or periodic tune ups. Clean out tracks generally receive railroad owned equipment such as boxcars, gondolas, hoppers and flatcars whereas rip tracks can see everything. Keep up the great work and I hope you will publish more articles or perhaps a new book with great color photos of your layout and its operation! Thanks! Tim Garland
Reply 0
AndreChapelon

OPS

I have to agree with Mike. An operating layout is more than switching. The traffic has to come from somewhere so there are through freights. There are unit trains and passenger trains. Sometimes there are helpers and there are also locals which do switching.There are yards to make up and breakdown trains. All this is part of an operating railway.

Don't get me wrong. I wasn't criticizing Lance. As a matter of fact, when it comes to new design layouts, I pretty much agree with him. It's just that most layouts designed for operation feature a lot of mainline running. You don't have to have a massive layout to realistically simulate traffic on a railroad, not even a class 1. Andy Sperandeo designed a layout based on New Orleans Union Passenger Terminal for those that like passenger trains, but don't have a gymnasium sized layout on which to run them. NOUPT was a switching layout with staging. Once a train leaves the station, it's bound for somewhere. All you need with a switching layout is somewhere to stage inbound trains and have a destination for them to go once the work is done.

The problem with mainline ops is that they require space, lots of space. If you want helper service, you need a grade that's longer than your longest train. If you want to run a mid-50's "Super Chief", you need at least 10 cars to replicate the look of train and the space to run it.

There's a conflict between designing a layout capable of solo operation while still allowing multiple operators (i.e. more than 1 or 2 guests). You can't operate Ted York's Cajon Pass layout solo. It ain't gonna happen. By the same token, Lance's layout is not really amenable to being operated by more than two people (engineer and conductor). You might be able to satisfy both desires with a fairly busy branch line (SP Monterey Branch in the 40's, Maine Central Rockland Branch in the same time frame), or maybe even a relatively lightly used main line (Maine Central Mountain Division) during the transition era. However, the busier the line, the less amenable it is to solo operation.

Mike

 

and, to crown their disgraceful proceedings and add insult to injury, they threw me over the Niagara Falls, and I got wet.

From Mark Twain's short story "Niagara"

Reply 0
david.haynes

Types of Operation

I think it comes down to the fact that the term 'Operation' is too general. As has been pointed out, there are many types of operations: switching, yard, main line, etc. If Lance had changed the title to 'Best switching layout size using ops timing', I don't think anyone would have commented about other operations issues.

-david-

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

N scale, DCC-NCE, Switching, Operations

Reply 0
wp8thsub

Not Just Switching

While the article emphasizes timing using a switching layout (as that's what Lance has for his home layout), the basic idea can apply to mainline/through train operation too.  Understand how much time is required for various tasks and plan accordingly.  He's just providing one example.

Too many layout owners design something that is too big for them, and/or too crammed with track, under the mistaken assumption that all that stuff will be necessary to keep themselves and their crews occupied.  This article should become required reading for anyone designing for realistic operation, regardless of the type of layout being planned. 

Rob Spangler MRH Blog

Reply 0
Bob Langer

Start simple..

Start simple then as experience is gained make it more complex. My layout has 18 industries. Most have more than one door. Each door or group of doors is a spot for a specific type of car. In the image below notice that A&P #1 is the cooler/freezer warehouse. Doors 1-4 receive fresh meat and produce. Frozen is spotted at Door 5-9.

Each industry has a limited number of products in bound. A product cannot be transported in any type of car. (Modern eras will have products in specialize car design. Grain is a good example.)

I could have not added the spots/doors which would make the switching much easier. I could have only had a list of consignees and ignored everything else.

Mostly operating by myself I only complete one or two trains at one sitting.

Bob Langer,

Facebook & Easy Model Railroad Inventory

Photographs removed from Photobucket.
 

Reply 0
Joe Brugger

Running and staging

A linear layout like the one in Mr. Mindheim's diagram can easily be converted to through running and staging by connecting up the ends.

Take a look at Dave Clune's Cascade County Narrow Gauge, back in the first year of MRH: http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/magazine/mrh-2010-SepOct/cascade_county_narrow_gauge

Dave ran point to point for many years, but said adding the unscenicked connector added very useful staging to rotate cars through the model layout, and gave him the opportunity for occasional continuous running.

Reply 0
r0d0r

How timely can you get?

(This is my first post to MRH)

I just got back into the hobby after 30 years, joined a local club, operated on a couple of members layouts, and designed my N Scale Empire. After 18 months I sat back and wondered why my railroad had made so little progress. The answer is complexity. I find woodwork less than easy and reliable N Scale track not so flash. In the interim, I realize that I like smooth DCC engines with sounds, slowly switching industries. Enter HO Scale again

I was designing a new layout in HO then read this article. My layout will be single operator (maybe two - my daughter enjoys running trains too!) about an hour at a time. This article has really made me rethink the design to both simplify and allow room for a few more industries. The result is losing an entire level that was just crowding the layout anyway. The new design will be a two level loop through a staging yard (loop is so Thomas the tank engine can run happily when the grandkids arrive   ) but with two distinct switching areas 1/2 a layout apart. All in an L shape 8' by 12'.

 

Thanks for making me stop and think now before I was committed.

Robert

Robert

CEO & Track Cleaner
Kayton & Tecoma Rly (Version 2)

Reply 0
Joe Atkinson IAISfan

Less is more

Robert, I went through a similar transformation.  I originally designed my layout ( http://www.iaisrailfans.org/gallery/Sub4WestEnd/LayoutPlanMRP2011_001 ) to support big op sessions with around 13-15 trains/session, simulating the IAIS's busiest days in the late 1990s when large numbers of UP detours ran over the line daily.  I mistakenly thought you had to have lots of trains and crews to have fun with operations.  

Later, I discovered the fun of slowing things down and focusing more on operating realistically.  Since the layout track schematic was patterned after its prototype (really just a large version of the loop with staging you described), I didn't have to change it in my "downsizing", but I just stopped running so many trains. My 10-track staging yard now has one track reserved for a daily IAIS manifest train, two tracks for UP detours I keep queued up, and the other seven...for on-layout storage.  I'm now finding that I could have built the layout about half as large as I did and still kept myself busy with interesting operations.  I operate with one train (i.e. one two-man crew) per session most days, and have found what, for me, is the ideal operating pace.

Lance knows of what he speaks. 

Reply 0
rickwade

Right on!

I am in the designing stages for my Richlawn Railroad V2 layout and it's design is being greating influenced by Lance's ideas - in fact it will be a modification of a plan from one of his books. The article (and Lance's ideas) have changed the way I think about model railroading. Sure, I'll still like to run a train "round and round" from time to time - but now when I do ops I will do it differently. I had the pleasure of attending one of Lance's clinics this past weekend at the Proto Rails Convention in Cocoa Beach, FL . It was a great clinic that expounded on many of the ideas in this article and I got to talk with him after the clinic. He is a great guy and I had a blast!

Rick

img_4768.jpg 

The Richlawn Railroad Website - Featuring the L&N in HO  / MRH Blog  / MRM #123

Mt. 22: 37- 40

Reply 0
East Rail

Proto Rails

Yes, it was great meeting you too Rick!  I think you'll find you've landed in model railroad heaven.  Central Florida has a lot of very friendly, very skilled, and very active model railroaders.  Your new house is right in the middle of all the action!

When I wrote the MRH article it was really drawing more on personal experiences than anything.  The ideas may or may not apply to a given individual but the concepts should at least be given some thought.  Many years ago I built a pretty large, fairly elaborate, N scale layout based on the Monon RR.  It was geared for all out timetable/train order operations that required a full crew to run to its max.

I really had a blast with the layout but about five years in it sort of hit me that I had built a LOT more model railroad than I really needed to reach my goals.  I had built in too much capacity.  A leaner layout would have still allowed three hour plus op. sessions and been much easier to build.  Heck, I even had a second deck in the plan which I never built because I realized I didn't need it.

Summarizing the article's points: Know what you want to get from a layout.  Build enough capacity to reach those goals plus a bit more.  Be cautious of overly complex layouts where there is no end goal to such complexity.

 

Lance

Visit the Downtown Spur at http://www.lancemindheim.com

Reply 0
kleaverjr

It's not the number of trains that requires lots of track...

It also is the type of operation you want.  Though he is much more respected and has more experience than I am, I have to disagree somewhat with the author in the idea that you don't need a long mainline to have a successful operation.  Though YES you CAN, for me, I will tell you it isn't possible.  Why? Because at least I can perceive short distances being traveled.  Even with a "fast clock", I can't fool my mind into thinking it has traveled 100 or 200 miles in 400' in any scale.  One other thing to consider is with say TT&TO, having towns/stations separated by 2x-3x the train length would make an operating session much more realistic and less frantic.  I have operated on layouts that use TT&TO,  and they have town on top of town, so I leave the first town, then literally 15 seconds later I am in the next town 25 miles away! So depending on the illusion one is trying to create, it sometimes requires a very long mainline.

This is why I have advocated for years for stretching things out, expanding mainlines when possible, not to accommodate more trains, but to DECREASE traffic density and also increase the realism when operating.

Ken L.

Reply 0
East Rail

Saying The Same Thing

I agree Ken.  I think we're saying the same thing.  When  I speak of overly dense layouts, layouts with excess capacity, etc.  I'm speaking more about turnout count, number of towns, etc. Not mainline run length.   Going back to my old Monon layout as an example, a layout I feel I 'overbuilt', if I were to do it again I would in fact leave the mainline run length the same.  I would however have trimmed back the turnout count and narrowed the bench work.

Lance

Visit the Downtown Spur at http://www.lancemindheim.com

Reply 0
AndreChapelon

And Therein Lies The Problem

It also is the type of operation you want. Though he is much more respected and has more experience than I am, I have to disagree somewhat with the author in the idea that you don't need a long mainline to have a successful operation. Though YES you CAN, for me, I will tell you it isn't possible. Why? Because at least I can perceive short distances being traveled. Even with a "fast clock", I can't fool my mind into thinking it has traveled 100 or 200 miles in 400' in any scale

Well, given that 100 miles in HO scale is 6070 feet (well over 1 actual mile), it's not surprising that 100 miles of travel is difficult to visualize on a layout with, at best, a couple hundred feet of main. That's why mainline operations can be so frustrating. Operations focused on relatively small areas (industries, stations, small towns) are a lot easier to implement. They're also a lot more practical for most people, who don't have many multiples of 100 sq. ft. in which to buld a layout.

Last night I served as dispatcher on a 12x27 layout. It's rather difficult to issue track warrants to two opposing trains on a layout of this size such that they meet somewhere out on the mainline at a designated siding if for no other reason that it's impossible to write two track warrants at the same time. I managed to do it once, and only because 1 of the trains was a passenger train that is required by the rules to make 3 (actual) minute stops at each station. The usual way of handling an opposing train is to tell the recipient of the warrant "Checkbox 7. Checkbox 2 not in effect until after the arrival < insert engine number here> ". TT&TO ops were tried on this particular layout and deemed not feasible due to the shortness of the twice around mainline.

The local freights, all operated as turns, generally take about 1 1/2 hours from the time they originate out of the yard until they return, with the overwhelming amount of the time being spent doing work at their initial destination. The most interesting operational positions on this particular railroad are dispatcher, yardmaster and local freight crew. With the exception of a local freight crew, 2 of those 3 operating positions involve being in one location at all times. With a local freight crew, the overwhelming amount of work time involves being in one location. Running a through train is just downright boring. You're either moving on the road, or you're at the last designated point on your now fulfilled track warrant trying to obtain another track warrant to move.

I have had the good fortune to have been part of a guest crew on Jim Providenza's Santa Cruz Northern. Jim uses TT&TO. Running a through train is a bit more interesting under TT&TO, but not overwhelmingly so. You're not as dependent on the dispatcher. If you're a scheduled train and the clock says you can go from your particular location, you go unless the schedule has been overridden by a train order that you have in your hot little hand. OTOH, the through freight on which I played engineer had some switching to do at a couple of stations. I'd still say the switching was more interesting than the movement across the mainline.

It's admittedly my preference, but I'd say layouts that maximize work in a restricted area are more interesting than those which emphasize getting trains over the road. They're also more practical for most people.

Mike

 

and, to crown their disgraceful proceedings and add insult to injury, they threw me over the Niagara Falls, and I got wet.

From Mark Twain's short story "Niagara"

Reply 0
kleaverjr

My apolgoies Lance for misunderstanding your article

As I read the article, I interpreted incorrectly what you meant when you suggested not to use an entire 1000 sq ft basement if you had one available (which roughly I do, 29'x30').  I have a long term goal (which some here are aware of) of a much more ambitious track plan that will have an extraordinarily long mainline, HOWEVER, that mainline will be composed by 2/3 single track 1/3 towns/stations/yards/etc.  Although not modeling a mainline operation would be more feasible, what I enjoy most is having long trains (40-50 1950s era cars) traversing a long mainline under TT&TO.To accomplish this, what is needed is a very long mainline. 

The interim P&A can only be 450' long, and that is with 3 decks! Not the most optimum of choices, but I don't want town on top of town.  Plus,i'm a huge proponent of "wide" aisle (4'-6' miminums)

So again, i'm sorry for misunderstanding you. Your article provided some excellent information, and now that I understand by what you meant about "overbuilding" and creating too much "capacity", it makes more sense.

Ken L.

Reply 0
rickwade

Refreshing!

Ken L.

It's refreshing to see your apology to Lance - you are a true Gentleman (which seems rarer and rarer these days!

 

 

Rick

img_4768.jpg 

The Richlawn Railroad Website - Featuring the L&N in HO  / MRH Blog  / MRM #123

Mt. 22: 37- 40

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