We've been here before,

That's why professionally, most of us check our assumptions and study the requirements, BEFORE choosing the technology and proposing "solutions" that "match".

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Touche.

The major advantages you point out on a shay are no small potatoes - routine service is the easiest way to extend the life of anything, and if it's easy to do the service, then it's far more likely the service will be done.

Now how you look at this in light of other technology is all a matter of perspective.  The crowd may be using an inferior design, but continue doing so because it has good service.  The new technology may indeed by called the inferior technology by the crowd, whereas it is new and they aren't yet comfortable with adopting its unknown standards.  And again, the most ideal solution may appear to be inferior to an outsider, but once used it becomes obvious that this idea is indeed superior to the others.  

Regardless, in almost every case where an organization has clung to the old way of doing things, that company has often ultimately gone out of business because their products are too inferior to what is otherwise generally available, and further the company is too far behind financially to close the gap by developing and manufacturing a new product.

As I coined the phrase in graduate school, Upgrade or Die.

I note one major difference between Climax, Heisler and Shay; I'll present it this way:

Climax Locomotive Works [1888 and 1928]; Heisler Locomotive Works [1891-1941]; Lima Locomotive Works [1878-1956]

One of these companies is not like the others! 

I usually pick my solutions by selecting the options that provide the most potential beyond my immediate requirements, and then use it for as long as I theoretically can before upgrading to the next generation.  This effectively means by the time I upgrade to the next generation, it has matured beyond the initial price release , and further, most of the bugs have been worked out.  In that time where I'm still using the old solution, I research what is available so when I do upgrade, I get the most bang for my buck.

a message from our sponsor

This message was brought to you by the guy who wants us to use the next generation tactile screen and experimental/prototype clip on knobs for your cell phone to make it a kinda sorta throttle so you can participate in Benny's techno-savy ops sessions.

And from what I understand

The best...doesn't always win out

For a variety of reasons.... Look at VHS vs. Betamax  or Apple vs. IBM compatiables....

Michael

Back to steam

Regarding the Shay vs Climax vs Heisler:

My take on this is that Ephraim Shay started with a flat car, stuck a boiler on it and devised a very flexible driving mechanism, a set of powered trucks that would undulate and stay on very very rough trackwork. Then kept improving on that idea.  It worked for him in Michigan, and then was proven to work well in other areas.  It worked so well that the company picking up and producing and marketting the idea (Lima) built a large part of its success on that Shay design.

So, it's another case of marketting winning out over, perhaps, better designs.

Besides, it's more fun as a foamer to watch a Shay (at least from the engineer's side) than a Climax or Heisler.

Those of you who model geared locos:  now don't you enjoy that Shay so much that you always run it boiler-front to the right as you are viewing it?

I am not really sure that the

I am not really sure that the Heisler was a better design then the shay.  I don't know if any of you have read the book about the Meadow Creek Lumber Co.  There are quotes from the chief engineer for the firm (not a train engineer) he was not impressed with the Heisler at all. If I remember right he wrote in January of 1942 something to the effect that the Heisler was a joke, it was a joke the day they built it, it was a joke the day they bought it and it will still be a joke the day Hittler's men take over running the railroad.

So you can see that not everyone who actually ran them thought they were a better design then the shay. I suppose in an ideal world the concept was a better concept.  But there where downsides. As noted the shaft was harder to work on in the middle. And I get the idea that build quality of the Heisler was not as high as it could be.

On the plus side I have heard tell that the shay turned better in one direction then the other.  So it did have it's downside. But not many folks alive today really have much (if any) experience in the actual use of these engines for what they were intended for.  So it is truly hard to say which was a better from this distant point in history.  But from the readings I have done of things said about the engines from contemporaries that used them back in the day does not seam to support the idea that the shay was a worse design then the heisler that just happened to have better marketing.  

So personally I will take the fact that they out sold the other engines buy a huge margin as an indicator that those who actually used them and knew what they needed seamed to think that the shay was a better design.

-Doug M

My point, exactly

That's the point I was trying to make.  The Heisler had advantages over the Shay on paper, but in the real world it did not do the job as well and was less popular.  I can think of a few other examples of things which were superior on paper, but never succeeded in the real world because of some unseen difficulty, poor construction, or marketing issues.

Like the Betamax?

< < <

Like the Betamax video cassette recorder.  Engineering wise, it was a superior product, that is why my parents bought that instead of the VHS type.  But guess what happened?  It was "outdated" within a few years, and by the early 1990s I believe you couldn't buy blank cassette's anymore. 

Ken L

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Now think of it this way: How many of us still use VHS or much less even have a VHS player anymore?

VHS may have beat out Betamax, but then CD and the subsequent DVD movements surplanted them altogether.  And now we stream our videos live via Netflix.  What is a Terabyte external drive good for, you might ask...I've seen full ones...

There's this sweet spot - jumping too soon and jumping too late both have their disadvantages.  The key point to when to make the jump is when you are at the crossroads of forced replacement.  It's alot like contemplating buying a VHS player, and then seeing that there is both the DVD player and the VHS/DVD player on the market.  I'd think it foolish to buy a plain VHS player at this point, we've moved beyond that plane. 

My truck upgrade, for example, came because the upgraded car was shelling out.  I learned volumes from my first car, however, and instead of digging up money to repair that car, I traded it in on this truck.  The truth is, I was vastly overusing the upgrade car in ways not meant for cars, but rather, for trucks.  I didn't know it then, but I needed a truck - hence, when it started to slip, the truck happened.

Hence why I think right now is the Ideal time to get onto the smart device plateau.  The new round of local devices are offering very little in return for the amount they're asking, while we're faced with the inevitable upgrade on another device, capable of similar interaction, that we already carry in our pockets.

The shay was just better

No it was not really like the BetaMax/VHS issue. In that case BetaMax was clearly better. The issue was that the company would not allow others to sell them and they charges way way to much for them.  So those that could not/.would not spend that kind of cash bought the cheaper VHS and lived with poorer tech.

That is a classic example of a company with a better product not knowing how to sell it and thus losing the market. In the case of the Shay it WAS the better product in the real world. The few advantages of the heisler were offset buy the advantages of the shay. The shay could have more then 2 pistons (in fact most had 3) and this gave a smoother power (more pulses of power per rev of the wheels for the same amount of power vs only 3 cylinders). And the engines where a lot simpler to work on as everything was readily accessible. 

I have heard about companies doing repairs to shays in the field that on a regular steam engine or a Heisler would have required dragging the engine back to the shop.  Add in that according to many sources the shay was just built better then either of its chief competitors and you can begin to see why it sold more.

In theory on paper the heisler with its center shaft was a better idea, in practice it turned out that the better idea was in fact a worse idea.  The advantage of the center shaft being simpler gearing and could turn easier. However it turned out in the real world that the gears being on the outside made them so much simpler to maintain/repair that the shay more the offset this advantage.  And as for the turning the shay could turn tight enough that the Hiesler being a bit better was of no real use.  So the so called advantages (on paper) where in fact no advantages in the real world and the Shay design had a lot going for it.

Just because something sounds better on paper does not mean it really is a better idea when push comes to shove.

So in the end in the case of the BetaMax the better product lost because the company screwed up. In the case of the Shay the better product won.  

Doug M

Easy repairs for products needed way out in the sticks

is usually a well-know marketing requirement, although back then it may have been less obvious.

That's why automobiles have complete spare wheels, rather than less expensive spare just tires.

The old adage for long term product success is to know the difference between "features" and "benefits".  And when the former isn't also the latter. Customers may be fooled also, but they learn by experience, and the smarter ones  usually vote with their wallets second time around.

Going back the autos example, wheel hub caps and chrome plated trims that required holes punched in the auto body, were features that are rarely offered today.

Off Topic

Since we've gone off topic and are talking Shays I thought one last Shay post won't hurt since a thread on just the geared engines probably won't get much reaction.

The last Shay built was for the Western Maryland R.R. She weighted in at 150 tons, was built in 1945 and retired after 6 years service. IIRC she was used to haul coal out of the Virginia coal mines up steep grades. Lima Locomotive Works had originally built the last Shay in 1937. Those that are near Cass can see her run there.

If you would like to see what this monster looked like here's the link. Scroll down to the 5th picture.

http://limalocomotiveworks.com/shay_locos.html

The first Climax's didn't look anything like what they did in later years. The class A's were nothing more that a steam launch engine placed in the center of a flat car with a vertical boiler. Here's a link to the Climax's.

In the first row on the far right is a class A climax. Four rows down, second picture from the left is a drawing of one of the power trucks and it's gearing.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_mss=Climax+ste&pq=western+maryland+120+ton+shay&cp=12&gs_id=3c&xhr=t&q=climax+steam+locomotive&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&biw=1280&bih=604&wrapid=tljp1347752259994329&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=XBFVUNbGEY7K0AGWmYHYCQ

So, I think the Shay was the better of all three geared engines. All the vital mechanics was out in the open so to speak. From what I've read these engine could literally be rebuilt between two stumps, other wise known as a field fix.

Which brings us to the new saw. . .

"You can't see the field for the trees".  It used to be "wood" but the trees didn't upgrade to from "touch wood" to "scratch free" titanium cases, and so died. Poor Saps.

As far as easy access..........

It looks like a breaker bar, extension and a couple of sockets is all that's required. 

Yup

Ya' got that right.  Can't do that with a diesel right?

Bernd

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XXX

True, plus the porn industry is responsible for a lot of digital video codec development. Your ability to get high quality video over the Internet without waiting forever on the download can be traced in large part to the porn business.

BTW Betamax went on to have a long life in the broadcast world.

Model RR Porn?

So, logically, the best tactic for RailPro would be to provide porn on the throttle?  That would presumably drive the industry to adopt the porn-friendly format and we would all benefit in the form of lower cost throttles.  Right?

Just four bolts?

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Well, try doing the opposite - what would it involve removing the "engine" from a steam locomotive, including the boiler?

This does entirely depend on the size of your diesel locomotive, of course.