Double-rail brackets

I went out 2 feet on 18" double-rail brackets without difficulty.

Weight limits and depth

Depth:  the brackets must span at least 2/3 of the depth of the shelf.  (Or, as Jeff's case shows, spanning 3/4 the depth is even better.)

Weight is the constricting factor, typically. Commercially available shelf systems have weight limits.  This weight limit information is either found in the installation instructions, on the box, or sometimes can be found on the mfr's website product information.

Also, if you are within the weight limits, but most of the weight is on the end of the cantilever (away from the wall), then a good approach is to upsize.  Remember that scenery plaster and rock castings may be the heaviest component.

The shelf system must be fastened to solid structure such as studs using adequately sized screws, not to wall board or plaster using expansion anchors or "molly" wing bolts.

Cross members

 Jeff,

What a great idea using those cross-members to support your table/shelf. Excellent.

You won't kick a brace...but

You won't kick a brace...but you can't stack UNDER a bracket

My club used a pair of engineered wood beams on the layout rebuild [area of 18x6]  The whold thing is held up by a total of SIX 4x4 posts.  1x3 L girder runs along the top and then 5/8" birch plywood covers the girder.  The edges are framed wrapped with two layers of masonite.

It's no doubt a heavy monther, but it sure is tough!!

Very Important you make a slight adjustment of your shelf rails!

I see only (1) One, what I would consider Big problem with the way the horizontal Brackets are placed on the virtical Rails. I'm a finish carpenter and Cabinet maker. placing the brackets on the top most section of the rails looses 50% of the strength of the whole support. placing at least 80% of the weight on the very top screws of each bracket is inviting disaster. I would very much suggest remounting the rails and raising them 12 inches then at least three upper screws from the center of the Train shelf and up will support the shelf's weight. Even though your Bracket is what appears to be 4 foot long your only using the top 6 inches of the rail for weight support and I've seen the top screws ripped out of solid Oak 4X4 lumber because of too much weight applied to that top screw.

Brackets or legs

I've fitted similar rails and brackets to support my layout around a 11'x 10' room. The widest point is over 2'. The only leg is used to support where a lifting section is hinged. The brackets take my weight on the layout, so are easily strong enough for the layout, and have been there for three years without any sign of giving.

As Rio Grande Dan says I have the rails further up the wall to spread the load on the screws (4" driven into the wall studs) I've also used the higher rails to provide a shelf about 2' above the layout.

Where the layout is wider than the brackets I have used 2"x1" to make an L shaped extension.

Mike Ruby

Backdrop fastenings?

So, if you're using shelf bracket systems to support the layout, and you run the support rails up the wall as Dan and Mike suggest, does anyone have particular favorite ways to fasten backdrops?  Do you just use short screws to fasten to the rails?  Any other ideas?

Depending on what material you use

Depending on what material you use for your Backdrop. (I use dry wall) or Masonite and I just would (Glue) 1X2 stringers up the wall. Then lay the backdrop against it and drill pilot holes through the backdrop and through the 1x2's.  Attach the backdrop  using 1-5/8inch drywall screws to secure it to the wall and at the same time the screw will also go through the 1X2 and into the back wall to help snug the glue and the backdrop all at the same time.

Don't put glue on the backdrop because if for some unforeseen chance you ruin the backdrop you can unscrew it from the wall and replace it with a new piece of backdrop material and the 1X2 stringer supports will already be glued in place.

You will need to cover all the screw heads with topping compound to hide them and should you every replace a section just drill new pilot holes and screw the new peace in place snugly but be careful to NOT run the screws all the way through the Backdrop. I wouldn't attach the backdrop to the same brackets that supports the train shelf because the brackets can only hold so much weight before they will be ripped off the wall and everything comes crashing to the ground, that's the main reason I use the 1X2's separately to support the backdrop.

Dan

Masonite back

Thanks, Dan, for the info.  Sorry, I wasn't clear.  I'm thinking of using masonite, and I have the grand plan of attaching all to the rails, so if the layout changes (it's a chainsaw), or if the room use reverts back to bedroom, I could just leave the rails, and put up some nice wood shelves.  Good point about the weight. 

I'm going to have to do some weight per foot experiments before I go too far.

Ian Rice's Shelf Layout Book

This book has some helpful information on building brackets and framework for shelf layouts.

http://www.amazon.com/Shelf-Layouts-Model-Railroads-Iain/dp/0890246904

He also discusses considerations for fitting the shelf layout into a book case situation.

Chris

Thanks

Thanks for the link, Chris.  Sounds like a good resource.

Hmmm.  Let's see now:  Father's day is coming, and the fam always asks "what would you like?', and I always say,  "sometihing train-related would be nice.", so maybe I should be more specific.

Masonite is nice and tough -

Masonite is nice and tough - but also consider Styrene - if you have a sign place or similar plastics dealer in your area, you can get a 4x8 sheet of styrene for about $20.00.

This will curve very easily, and it is light too.  Masonite usually runs about $10.00 a sheet, so you sacrifice one unit of cost for a factor less of weight and a factor easier in mallebility - the styrene will curve very easily around anything.

Hardware store steel brackes

I use standard hardware store shelf brackets that are designed to hold a tremendous amount  of weight.   Four inch long deck screws are placed in new holes in the center rib pre drilled in the bracket.  The leveling board that the bracket is screwed to can be adjusted using a spacer between the board and the bracket using fishing line stretched  along the top of the boards. Sometimes walls are not exactly vertical.
The layout is built in 5 foot long x 18" wide modules using 1"x 2" with a 1/2" plywood deck.  In all the years it has been operating the layout, I've never have had any problems using this bracket method.

Backscenes and weight

 The backscene on my layout is 1/8" Hardboard / Masonite, I bend it down to 1' radius. My backscenes are 20" high and have a 4" strip of the board laminated to the top edge which stops it warping and holds the curve. The boards are fitted to 1/2" ply supports screwed to the back edges of the layout. They fit in the gap between layout and wall caused by the shelf brackets.

On weight carrying, I used the heavy duty double brackets. They take the layout plus my weight, although I try to only lean on it when working on the back. Because it goes around the room the sides support each other, and most weight is on the wall end of the brackets, I reckon the brackets could be replaced with supports that only stuck out an inch and it would still stay up. I'm not going to try it though!

Mike Ruby

I tried that, mikeruby; never

I tried that, mikeruby; never again!!  At least, not for backdrops!!  I made my first attempt out of 1/8th masonite and then cut three pieces of plywood with the necessary 1' radius.  It was heavy, took about two hours to make, and it did not play well with the room. 

My second attempt was done with 1/2 inch foamboard; this actually worked well!!  This was the white polybeadboardfoam and it comes with both sides sheethed in a light plastic covering.  This bent well, and I fastened it to the wall using a couple 1-5/8 screws where it met the wall on either end of the corner.  I'd do this again in the future except i'm not too keen on the fire safety involved with white beadboard.

If the blue or pink stuff has similar mallebility, I might use that.

But then I discovered .020 plastic at the plastics dealer, in 4x8 sheets; it rools up easily for moving in a car.  In my case, I left it in the car for three weeks in the middle of summer before I thought to get it out.  By then, the mtieral was useless as plastic fro scratchbuilding.  But that is gfin, for now I have a large sheet great for backdrops!

I should have had the plastics dealer cut it down into 2x8 or 2x4 pieces on their cutter!!

Hardboard problem

 What problems did you have using masonite?

The photo shows my backscene, the one join you can see is where the boards can be parted. Apart from a few ply uprights, (only 8" high and not in the curve) and the 4" strip laminated along the top edge there is no support around the 12" radius corner. The backscene has been in place for 2 1/2 years now with no signs of movement.

Here are the supports before installing the corner piece

And another corner that went in first. Note the stiffening strip being clamped in place at the top, while the glue dries.

Mike

I've done that, Mike.  And it

I've done that, Mike.  And it worked well, don't get me wrong.  But the weight and the unwieldness of the masonite ultimate made me experiment with other methods around the room.  The masonite took my a good four hours to get up.  In one corner I just used a piece of 1/2 inch polybead, and I had the whole corner finished 30 minutes later, no powertools, no clamps necessary. 

Polybead backscene

 Hi Benny

Is the polybead board strong enough to support itself upright?

Our modular group is considering building double sided boards with a removable backscene mounted in the centre. We need it to be strong enough to stand up with only a few inches of support at the bottom, light enough to carry around, both sides have to be the same and it needs to take some knocks while being transported and set up. Being able to be curved would also be a good thing.

Mike

It worked for me because it

It worked for me because it was securely fastened to the wall behind the backdrop with a total of four drywall screws in all.  If I had to do my layout again, i would have used this method in the opposite corner as well, even though the process of installing a Masonite backdrop was great experience.

I first made myself plywood forms and in a manner similar to how one would build a half pipe, I pressed the masonite into the form and screwed it in place.  The result was quite robust - the only thing is, it weighted a bit and it was certainly not friendly to the cieling or the layout [partially built up into the corner] and I even had to take apart the mainline to get the corner piece in place!  Once in place, I covered it with this sky blue paper my uncle has, and it looked GREAT.  Other then that, you really could not tell what exactly I had done - and I could not get behind that thing once it was in place, even if I wanted too.  Regarldess, my plan called for at least one more of these quarter pipes.

But as my time went, I did not have another 2 hours to liesurely build another quarter pipe.  One afternoon I looked at the other corner, and developed the foam board method, because I just coincidentally had a sheet of 1/2 inch beadboard sitting there and nothing else was going on.  The beadboard went into place very easily, marring neither the roof nor doing any damage to the railraod.  I slipped in, fastened two scres vertically on one wall, eased the valley of the foam into the corner, and then added two more scres on the opposite wall.  In all, I think i spent a total of fifteen minutes doing it, and ten of those minutes was cleaning enough crap off the layout to get to the space!  Once this was done I finished up the corner, papered it, and I couldn't really tell this side from the oppostie side.  Fruthermore, in one spot I decided it would be nice if my turntable track could continue into the backdrop, as a building face would be on that wall.  My knife cut a portal in about three seconds, and I had my shop track. 

And then I tore the whole thing down about three months later!!! And it felt so good!

This beadboard is sold at Home depot and it has a plastic sheathing on front and back, giving it some mallebility.  I can only say it might work, depending on your experimentation.  At the club, we used good old fashioned Masonite, three-ply, with the center allowing gaps where the L brackets on the layout surface pop into slots in the backdrop.

 The one reason I shy from the beadboad is the fire hazard potential.  I'm eyeing .020 styrene for the next backdrops, as I can get a 4x8 for about $20 and that provides enough material for 16 feet of backdrop.  It curves well, rolls with ease and cuts freely with scissors.  If your modules had a 1/16th inch grove in the middle, you could notch the bottom of the plastic backdrop to match an internal profile of the module.  This backdrop would slip into place at shows, and perhaps be fastened in by a couple deadbolts or clamps.  The backdrop, when not in use, would take up a space of about 1'x1'x2', depending on how tight you rolled it up.  You'd want to paint it with light blue spray paint and then detail it, either with other spray paint colors [find a good graffiti artist?] or an airbrush, or you could glue on you prefered scenes.

How did you get the shelves level??

I just put up my first rod and bracket and the tip of the bracket is about  2% higher than at the wall.  How do I account for this?  I could shim it, but I really wanted the plywood (3/4") to be fully supported by the metal bracket.

Thanks, Ryan

Normally level

Ryan,

Normally, manufactured shelving systems are manufactured so that the shelves are level, when the brackets are fully seated in the standard.  So, you could try tapping the bracket with a hammer to make sure it's fully seated.  Tap right next to the standard.   If your standard moves down, then you need to upgrade your fasteners.

Another possibility is that you have a bump in the wall, usually caused by a bowed wood stud within the wall.  I would try shimming the standard at each fastener location, so that the standard is vertical and straight. 

If your plywood is not fully seated, and the difference is visible, the tip must be a lot more than 2%.  Could you give a measurement, either in fractional inches, or, more conveniently for us fractionally challenged, in millimeters (mm).  Or better yet, we're on an MRH forum, so, post a photo. 

Re: Normally level

Here you can see that the wall is level, and the standard is flush against the wall all the way down.

Here you can see that the the bubble is off a little...  The bracket is 9" as is the level.  I have checked brackets at three different heights with the same results.  Also when this bubble is centered, the level is raised 3/8" at the base.  This is a double-slot standard recently purchased from Menards.

Thanks,

Ryan 

What a puzzle

Ryan,

You have got a puzzle there.  I just checked all the variety of shelf systems we have around here:  all level.    Just looked through my Knape & Vogt spec. sheets**:  All indicate level, perpendicular, plumb:  everything is at right angles.  I'm at a loss to suggest why yours is so far out.  The only thing I can think of:  The tips of a lot of brackets have a raised tip, to key into a hole in the bottom of a shelf to keep it in place.   Is this accounted for?

Option:  you could screw a level sheet metal plate or metal angle to the side of the angled bracket, so that the shelf itself has a level bearing surface all along its length.  Or even use wood, sort of like a low gusset.

Other than that, I'd look for a different shelving system to use.

**Knape & Vogt is the manufacturer of shelving systems found in a great many hardware stores and even shown as stocked by Menard's.

I would shim the shelf.

Level the shelf to see how big a gap you have at the wall, then cut plywood shims and screw & glue them to the back of the shelf to make it level.