I'm running both

My era is the transition era of the T&P and the KATY. I've already got some beautiful steam engines and have no problems in adding to them and modifying them to make them look even better. I have already found a way to add DCC as well so no problems there.

With running both, that is why I want a turntable. Plus there was a 360 roundhouse for the T&P right in the middle of the T&P between the Passenger station and freight warehouse in Ft Worth so it's a main stay of the era and will be included.

I'm leaning towards #3 and may just need to expand the center to 16" per side. One of the things I've decided to do with the turntable/roundhouse is to have it on the edge of the layout. Half of it on the layout and half on a small shelf hanging out. The roundhouse will only be half of the 360. That part will be on the layout and that way I can leave the other half open so that you can see inside.

time to do some playing around with the design.

How do you get into the layout?

Crusty,

Since you have settled on #3, I have a couple of questions.

Did you explain yet how you plan to get into this layout?  I am just curious!
At what height do you plan the table surface to be at?

One of the other things you might want to do is design a module into the layout that can be taken to shows.   You already mentioned this would need ne taken down at certain times.

Den
1900-1930s N-scale California Mountain railroading.

Thanks for the inputs.

From looking at the #3 layout, my garage door is on the right. I also have a regular door that leads into the house on the upper left. I have not fully thought it out yet but have a couple of ideas. One is to have the center section come out to only 12 feet. Then have the end in two modules that I can separate and fold into the sides. The reason for this is not necessarily to enter the layout but so I can park my Motorcycle inside of the layout at night. That is one of my requirements. This area could be used for entrance as well. 

The other thought is to have a swing up area where my door is that leads into the house. This would be more for convince to get into the garage to work as well as work on the layout. This is where in lies my problems. I have a two car garage that doubles as my work shop where I have a full blown woodworking shop. Everything is on wheels so that it can be moved out of the way against the wall when not in use. I have a full dresser Harley that resides in the garage as well. And on occasion, I park the family car in there. 

And now I want to set up a Model RR. Yep, the garage is getting full. The 10 X 16 seems to be the best fit within the confines of floor space I have available. It will be built in sections of light weight materials for ease of storage when necessary. That part I've already figured out. Steel construction beams for bench work and 4" pink foam on top for road bed. Removable wooden legs for supports.

I haven't figured out my height yet but am thinking that going with a 12" wide module, I can raise it up to about chest height and will not have to worry about depth. I've done some measuring and drawing and have figured out that for my yard/freight house, it can all be built in a 12" area. That gives me a 2" deep building and 6 yard tracks with one main line. And I still have a few inches to the edge of the module. I may go 24" or 18" on the left end but have not decided exactly yet. Still doing some track layout design.

I'm also still looking at where I want to put Fort Worth. I was originally thinking at the end of the island. But with the cross roads at Tower 55 that I want to incorporate, I may move it to the upper left corner of the layout. Then I will have west going to the right from that corner and North going down from that corner. The crossroads will basically not be used but there will be track laid that runs into the backdrop.

 That would give me all of the upper area and part of the upper side of the island for Fort Worth and the stock yards. I can use the lower side of the Island for Wichita Falls and the lower side for the Midland/Odessa area. That's probably all of the towns I'll have on the layout. At least that's it for now. 

Still playing

Well I did some more playing around last night with the W plan. I've got to do a lot of rearrainging to get a turntable/roundhouse in there. I'll keep playing with it as I think it will work out better in the long run. I know I can always go back to one of the other plans and would more than likely change it to a 12" bed in some areas to give me a larger isle. But for know, I think I want to try and make the W plan work as it will give me basicall 4 16' areas for towns.

Sorry.

They are the same. U is the isle, W is the layout. Sorry about that. I had been calling it a W when i saved it in my program.

Two suggestions

 I would suggest settling on what you want to model before deciding on bench/table/shelf shape.

 Where will trains be coming from or head to, i.e where will staging be needed ?

 Is Fort Worth where freight and passenger trains on your layout will terminate or originate, or will some/most train pass through the town? That affects e.g. how to place a passenger terminal - if it is the end station, it can easily be put on a peninsula.

Smile,
Stein

Workshop, Garage, Layout equals dust and bugs.

Up, Up, and Away

Not as crazy as it may sound. Did exactly that with a 5'x16' slot car layout in a single car garage back in the 80's. Used a 12v winch with garage door cable and swivel pulleys screwed into ceiling joists. I didn't have the dust cover as it wasn't needed. Just needed to get the slot car layout out of the way so I could park my car in the garage. Layout legs folded up into layout. Cables attached with eye hooks at 4 corners and center of long sides. It was slow to hoist and lower due to the winch speed but other than that it worked great.

The slot car layout did not have any high terrain on it. Nothing higher than 8" or so above the deck. There is limited clearance between the open garage door and the ceiling. A model railroad with tall scenery may not fit depending on your garage door track to ceiling distance.

Answers

OK, let's see if I can answer the questions.

Fort Worth is my main town and the center of all the action. (I grew up in Ft Worth so that's why it's the center). The KATY Passenger/freight trains will head north out of town to Wichita Falls. The Texas Special was a main passenger line back in those days traveling north. ( Have family that lives in Wichita Falls). 

T&P passenger/freight trains will head west out of town to Midland/Odessa. The T&P Texas Eagle was main passenger line back in those days. ( I have family that lives in this area as well.

The T&P also had a huge yard and freight warehouse near the passenger station. So that will be in there as well. In Wichita Falls, the KATY had a engine servicing facility there. There are yards as well in Wichita and in Midland. There are plenty of business to service along the way in each town to provide some switching action. In Ft Worth was the big Swift meat packing plant. in Midland/Odessa and in Wichita was several oil companies and cotton compressors along with some smaller business.

So that's my reasons for choosing this area for my layout. I want to do a loop so that if I'm not doing anything, I can at least just let a few trains run continuous while I'm sitting in the garage working/playing with other things. Or just drinking a frosty cold one.

The idea of raising the layout into the overhead is not a crazy one. I  did it with a 4' X 8' layout I had. But I use a lot of the overhead room now for storage as well as having the garage door up there. Is it doable? Maybe. I'll have to take a really close look at it. I have the garage door opener up there, my ladders hangings from the rafters, and a bunch of shop lights as I use the garage as a shop. It will just take some time/effort on my part to see if I can do it. The big question in my mind to figure out is how do I support it all so it doesn't flex when I raise it up.

Hoist Points = Leg Points

Where there is a leg now there will be a hook above. If it doesn't flex while sitting on legs it won't flex when hung from wires above the legs.

Realize it is a lot of engineering to get it working reliably right. I wouldn't hoist unless it is the only option to solve the problem. With my slot car layout I had nowhere to move it to so was left with no choice other than parking the car outside. Yeah, like that would have flown with the wife in January! 

Car Outside

Parking the car outside is not that big of a problem since I live in SoCal. But the Harley definitely goes in the garage.

Some new work

OK, I've been working on the U one for a few days and just can't get it the way I want. So I've switched to the E and so far it seems to be working better. Tell me what you think so far. The track on the end is teh passenger station in Ft Worth and of course you know what teh roundhouse is. The yard/freight warehouse will be in the top benchwork. On the prototype, it is all in a line with the roundhouse across the tracks between the passenger station and the warehouse. I took a little liberty with it.

Turntable to Nowhere

The roundhouse will be extremely visible and quite a showpiece in this position but oddly configured when you add the tracks that feed it, coaling, sand, etc. The service facilities will greatly encroach on the aisle and cause excessively deep benchwork in the corner if they are placed in a logical position relative to the roundhouse.

T55

I would put Tower 55 in either corner on the right hand end and have the "unmodeled" side of the tower curl around behind the tower against the wall.  Then use the peninsula for the Fort Worth Belt/Stockyards area with several stockyards, meat packing plants and rendering plants.

T55

Tower 55 and the cross roads will go in the lower left corner as that's where they physically are in relation to the passenger station. There will be a lumber yard in the corner and next is Bewley Mills along the lower benchwork before the island. If I can fit it, there will be an Ice house/loading dock on the other side of teh tracks from the mill. The Island on the left side will be the Swift meat packing plant.

As for the servicing facilities, they will be to the right of the roundhouse before the yards/freight warehouse. I'm thinking Wichita Falls will fit in the middle between the two islands where the other turntable is. Midland/Odessa will be on either side of the lower right hand corner. They are less than 30 miles apart in real life. Midland on teh right side of the left island and Odessa as close as I can get by the corner on the left side.

I'm still drawing it out in XrackCAD and so far everything seems to be fitting OK.

?

Those are curious selections of places.  Midland-Odessa in the 1940's wasn't very much and it was a couple hundred miles west of Ft Worth.  Big Springs was the major point in W Texas on TP.  It was the division point.  There were no interchanges at Midland, but there were interchanges at Weatherford, Eastland, Ranger, Cisco, Abilene and Sweetwater.

To get to Wichita Falls on the MKT you have to go up to 90 miles north to Whiteboro, hang a sharp left and then head 50 miles west on a branch.  The division point was Denison.  It certainly wasn't the main route (which was up through Denison to Kansas City).

"U" would be my first choice....

    The U shaped aisle would be my favorite if I had that much room.  Use the peninsula as the two terminus with a scenic divider down the center and no loop at the end of it.  This would give a nice long run around the walls.  If continuous running was desired, install a liftout from the end of the peninsula to the end wall with an 'X' track arrangement to an abbreviated wye.  The way you have it drawn with 12" wide benchwork may limit how much of the roundtable/engine storage you could model, but a bumpout with a squeezepast in the aisle could work, especially in one corner. 

    All of this really revolves around what you want to do on your layout.  Will it be railfan/photo style operations?  Timetable passenger operations?   Simple switching (no timetable, just switchlist)?  Just a place to display structures and trains against a nice scenic backdrop?

   Most of these types will fit in the area you have, and going multideck hasn't even been discussed!

Toni

Q&A

Midland was the half way point to El Paso and was a stopping/water stop for the steam engines as well as the cattle. There was also several oil refineries in that area at that time as well with several depots in town that the T&P serviced. I have family on my Mom's, Dad's side that lives in that area and has for ages.

I understand that to get to Wichita Falls was on a branch line.I had originally looked at doing Denton and Dennison. But my Dad's family is all over Jackson county/Wichita Falls and I remember going up there as a kid. My Dad, Grand Mother and Great Grand Mother lived up in Goree. Unfortunately, the train didn't go thru what is literarily a one horse town. My Great Grand Mother lived in the last house before leaving town. And it was only a short 3 block walk into town. 

That's one of the reasons for choosing those towns. Because of a family tie and old memories, I wasn't' around back in the 30-40's but I want to run steam, F1's, F3's, F7's so that's why I chose that era.

  The Islands are 5' long and it will give me a lot of room for adding in sidings and bossiness. I've already drawn in out on paper on a 3 1/2' island the stock yards and they fit fairly well. I'll see once I get it drawn out in Xtrack and see how it really fits since they have the actual switches I'm using. If it doesn't work, then I'll rethink it.

Here's the stockyards

OK here's what it looks like with the Swift packing/stockyards in place. As you can see, it fits on the left side of the island and is fairly accurate to the prototype. I still have some work to do on the yards now..

Lateast update.

OK, I've gotten this much done so far. Let me know what is good or bad.Most of it is based off of maps from teh 1930's. Yes I did take a few liberties with some of it. Fort Worth is pretty much done. Grid is 12".

The T&P freight warehouse will be at the top with the yard tracks just below them. Below that is the engine refueling/staging tracks. That's why they go into the roundhouse. To the left is the Union station passenger station.

Lower left corner is Tower 55. In the corner you have the lumber yard on the lower left after the turn and the mill on the right of it. The three structures along the inside of the turn is the Ice House and loading platform.

The buildings on the left of the first island is the Swift meat packing/stock yards with 3 tracks feeding into them.

On the right side of that island is where Wichita Falls starts. The first sidings and three buildings will be a cotton oil, cotton compressor and offices. on the edge across the tracks from the roundhouse is the Union Station. The spur headed back into the corner is for a grain & mill and a oil refining co. I've still got some more industries to add in on the left island.

The right side of the right island will be Midland with Odessa in the corner and some of the right side of the right end.

Get the door in place first...

You need to draw the doors, whether permanent or not, on your plan.

T55

You could run a loop of track around the room for the TP.  The passenger station tracks should tie into the E-W leg of T55.  The only TP trains that should go up the MKT north out of Ft Worth, are the few going to Sherman for the Paris branch.  95% of the TP trains go E-W through Twr 55.  Putting the TP on a loop would let you run trains through the passenger  depot and Twr 55 in the proper direction.

The MKT yard and engine house, Ney yard, was south of Twr  55 and the MKT operated N-S through Twr 55.

Proto freleance

Let's just call it proto freelance. 

The yard/roundhouse you see on the bottom is the MKT one in Wichita Falls, not the Ney yard south of T55.

I had a different plan, the S isle where I actually had a outside loop behind the back drop that would allow the T&P to continue headed east from Ft Worth. It would come back into the layout on the opposite corner as a east bound headed into Midland/Odessa. I could turn it around later and be a West bound.

Same for the MKT. A loop that went around the other out side as a south bound and came back in at Wichita Falls. Or if I wanted to be more accurate, I can change the town to Dennison and Denton north of Ft Worth.  Basically a folded over figure 8 with a cross connect at T 55. It would look/act more like the prototype. I'll have to do some work on that drawing and bring it up to date and then maybe post the two and see what the consciences  says. 

How long are your trains going to be?

This may have been covered previously, but I've been on vacation for the past week and am just getting back to the forum.  Second question is how big is your motive power going to be?  What radius will N-scale passenger cars handle?  I model in HO so I can't speak with any authority on how N-scale will operate around 11 inch radius curves.  The 11 inch radius is roughly the equivalent of a 22 inch radius in HO.  Full length 85 foot passenger cars with diaphragms coupled at a scale distance between cars will not work on any radius smaller than 30 inches in HO scale without the diaphragms interfering with each other.  If they make "shorty" passenger cars in N-scale like the Athearn shorties in HO, and you are going to run those, then the shorter radius would work.

The next issue is how big will your steam locomotives be, and will any of them be brass?  If you are planning to run large mallets, or 10 or 12 coupled steam engines, they may not stay on the rails with an 11 inch radius.  If you are running brass, it will almost be guaranteed that the won't stay on the rails on an 11 inch radius.  In addition if you run brass mallets, the smoke box will hang over the edge of the table on 11 inch radius curves near the table edge. 

You can run the tracks close to the edge with safety if you screw Plexiglas to the table edge anywhere the distance is close to keep the trains from taking the "big drop", but not if a part of anything is going to hang over the edge.

Finally if your local peddler freights that will work the industries are going to be short trains of 10-15 cars in length, you can probably back them around 11 inch radius curves, but if trains are going to be 20-30 cars in length or longer, you may have difficulty backing around 11 inch radius.

Keep in mind that I'm thinking in terms of HO operating on a 22 inch radius and then translating it to N-scale 11 inch radius.  The modelers on this site with N-scale experience will have better insight on how reliable N-scale equipment operates on 11 inch radius than I do.