dkaustin

I wanted to open a discussion about bridges on our model railroads and the grades we put in our track work. I am hoping Joe will jump in here to tell us what he did on his layout.  In the prototype do the railroads interrupt their grades for bridges to be built level?  I have heard that heavy downgrade breaking on a bridge can cause rail slippage on the prototype bridge and damage it.  I do not know if this is true or not.

What are most modelers doing on their layouts?  What should a modeler do if there is a smooth continuous 2% grade and you want to have several bridges crossing canyons and gorges.  Should the bridges be built to match the grade?  I could see that interrupting the grade for a bridge could cause coupler issues and create the runaway train.  Please tell me what you have done on your own layouts.

Den

n1910(1).jpg 

     Dennis Austin located in NW Louisiana


 

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Tom Patterson

Bridges and Grades

Den-

I have four bridges on my layout that are on 2.0 to 2.5% grades- the first is the deck girder bridge in the photo below.

dsc_0040.jpg 

The second is the through truss bridge in last month's MRH. The third is in the photo below and you can see the fourth at this blog:  https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/company-houses-12188259.

1024x683.jpg 

I was unaware of any issues with bridges on grades when I designed my layout 20 years ago, There are several photos in the book "The Louisville and Nashville in the Appalachians" by Ron Flanary that show long trestles on grades, at least according to the captions. In any event, I didn't have the space to level out the track before and after the bridges, and it would have required quite a bit of space to transition from a 2.5% grade to level and back.

Tom Patterson 

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Jurgen Kleylein

Bridges are just part of the grade

Bridges are built on grades all the time.  It really isn't a consideration.  It is far more important to maintain smooth grades and curves than to make building bridges simpler.

Jurgen

HO Deutsche Bundesbahn circa 1970

Visit the HO Sudbury Division at http://sudburydivision.ca/

The preceding message may not conform to NMRA recommended practices.

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UPWilly

Well, Dennis

I do believe you asked about this before. So, are you asking for more input or were the previous replies unfulfilling ?

https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/bridges-and-grades-12188600

You certainly do bring up an interesting question - seems like braking (which, of course, would have more dynamic influence on a grade) might be of some concern.

Where was it you "heard" of this concern?

Quote:

"...heard that heavy downgrade breaking [sic] on a bridge can cause rail slippage..."

Bill D.

egendpic.jpg 

N Scale (1:160), not N Gauge. DC (analog), Stapleton PWM Throttle.

Proto-freelance Southwest U.S. 2nd half 20th Century.

Keep on trackin'

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Terry Roberts

slippage and grades

My understanding is that rail slippage under heavy braking is a problem for both bridges and regular trackage.

The RGS and Westside had a number of bridges and trestles on grades--up to at least 4% on the RGS. 

There is no change in grade where the UP (ex SP) bridge crosses Salmon Creek just outside Oakridge OR.

The OSL condensed track profile does not show a change in grade for a bridges across rivers in all cases.  Some grade changes are shown close to bridges in a few cases, but certainly in the minority of river crossing listed.

Terry

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Jim Marlett

Bridges and Grades

Here is a link to one of my pictures of RGS bridge 43a. Very obviously on a grade if you look at the top tier of bents.

http://jimmarlett.zenfolio.com/p667555745/e46b3aadf

 

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Archie Campbell

Bridges on grades and curves

The topic of curves recently came up on another forum. Curves can be handled in two ways depending on the material. Beams are generally straight so a viaduct of steel beams is formed of straights as Tom Patterson's model however brick, stone or concrete arch viaducts can be constructed as continuous curves. There are plenty of examples of this in the UK. Have  look at the Glenfinnan Viaduct though this is merely the best known of many such concrete viaducts in the Highlands.

As someone has already stated bridges occur on grade. What's the problem? The seatings are probably horizontal unless the bridge is very long so expansion would create a substantial change in elevation. Suspension bridges have expansion joints several feet long. The bridge needs anchoring longitudinally and athwartship.

http://www.atkinsglobal.com/~/media/Files/A/Atkins-Global/Attachments/sectors/roads/library-docs/technical-journal-3/the-maintenance-of-the-main-expansion-joints-onthe-forth-road-bridge.pdf

​Wasn't able to find a picture of the railway equivalent but it's a bit like the stock rail against a turnout blade with the rail sliding past the blade. Shorter ones can be simply halved rails sliding past each other, probably protected with a check rail.

​Archie

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Bruce Elliott

Bridges on grades and curves !

Bridges follow grade and curve profiles and are built to suite the track plan. Not all bridges have a constant curve or are straight. Some are compound in both curvature and grade itself. What hasn't been mentioned is super-elevation, which also goes with the track profile. The challenge to all this is that bridges are straight sections, put together at angles (when necessary) with the ties and rail that follow the track profile.

Piedmont Division of the B&O

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Matthew J Greer

Bridges on Grades and problems with them in real life.

 have a little different perspective from most on this forum as I am planning to model European prototype Specifically a stretch of the Frankenwaldbahn "I know it's a mouth full" running from Probstzella to Rothenkirchen/Pressig in Northern Bavaria. This line is almost entirely grade, and fairly significant at that being about 2.5-3% in some places. Where this involves our conversation is with the town of Ludwigsstadt. There is a viaduct/bridge that crosses the valley where the town is and the whole bride is angled to continue the upward grade as you head south toward Steinbach am Wald. I have included some links if you are interested in reading about this stretch of the German railway system.    https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankenwaldbahn&prev=search the second link is below. https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trogenbachbr%25C3%25BCcke&prev=search

Historically in 1924 a train parked on the grade waiting for a signal had it's breaks fail and it ran back down the hill until it reached Ludwigsstadt and derailed on the bridge section plunging half of the train over this side into the town below. Fortunately no one in the town was hurt but I believe two crewmen lost their lives. I have posted a link to a site that shows many contemporary photos of this bridge some from a side profile and others from a hill on the North end of the bridge looking south and you can see how the bridge is tilted for the grade.  http://www.bahnbilder.de/name/karte/place/ludwigsstadt/lon/11.382/lat/50.4873.html#11.36715888977051,50.408189325313124,13

I hope that helps in answering some questions.

Matthew.

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lyallfalk

Bridges on Grades and Curves

On CPR's Coquihala section of their Kettle Valley Line there was a deck girder bridge sitting on steel trestle towers that was on about a 12 degree curve and the grade on that part of the line never dropped below 2%.

The bridge spanned Ladner Creek and there have been many photos of it published.  In the photos the difference in height between one end of the girders and the top of the tower they are resting on is discernable, the top of the tower being level and the girder being at grade.

Google "Ladner Creek Trestle/Bridge" and you can probably get one of these shots.  That bridge is definitely on a steep grade and sharp curve.

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Moe line

Google Huey Long bridge

The Huey Long bridge that my coworkers traverse from Avondale, LA to New Orleans, LA is built with a grade and a curve, it is both an automobile bridge and a railroad bridge. There should be images of it on Google. When the crews have to stop a train on the bridge, a technique known as draping the bridge is done by getting the train balanced on the bridge, so equal segments of the train with compensation for loaded and empty blocks of cars, are spread out across the bridge. It works quite well and the trains can be held that way with a minimum amount of air brake pressure, saving the brake pipe pressure for descending the bridge. Anyway, just my two cents worth of real railroad practices on bridges built on grades and curves.

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ctxmf74

draping the bridge

The SP timetable back in 1985 had some interesting specific rules for operating on the bridge....DaveB

​  dgerules.jpg 

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George J

Interesting Info

I stumbled upon this while searching for information about bridges on grades.

The previous post about the operating restrictions on the bridge is really interesting. I, for one, never considered there might be an upper limit to horsepower on a train.

George

"And the sons of Pullman porters and the sons of engineers, ride their father's magic carpet made of steel..."

Milwaukee Road : Cascade Summit- Modeling the Milwaukee Road in the 1970s from Cle Elum WA to Snoqualmie Summit at Hyak WA.

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Virginian and Lake Erie

The Virginian had bridges

The Virginian had bridges with grades on them but they were less than your 2% figure. It was not uncommon for them to use the most powerful locomotives available to move long heavy trains from the coal fields to the ports. The number of axles was often 16 not including the pushers. Steam engines could have many more powered axles, figure on a pair of 2 10 10 2s pushing and a 2 8 8 2 on the front to fight up the grades prior to the arrival of the electric locomotives.

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Craig Townsend

Dynamic braking and heavy trains

BNSF for a while decided they where going to run loaded grain and loaded coal trains westbound over Steven's Pass, a 2.2% mountain grade. After a few months of testing, MOW forces found significant structural damage to a few bridges due to the forces of dynamic braking. The MOW told the forces in charge that if they didn't stop running those heavy trains over the hill the bridges would need some major work. Us train crews where told that the trial was over because of the power shortage (4 to 6 extra units per train to run over the hill verse the normal power to go around the horn, aka the Columbia Gorge), but we could read between the lines... Craig
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joef

Grades and bridges on the Siskiyou Line

Better late than never, aye?

I just laid the roadbed and track right through the scene giving little special thought to any grade adjustments due to the location having a bridge. The only consideration I made was to make sure there were no risers in the bridge location.

Then I later came back in and cut out the roadbed and track, although in one case (a curved trestle), I left the rails hanging in mid-air and put the new trestle up under the rails. This location happens to be just shy of the summit of the grade climbing out of Coos Bay, so the bridge actually forms a slight concave curve across it. I also tilted the trestle every-so-slightly to get a banked curve.

Here are some photos of the install process.

NOTE: This part of my layout (the Coos Bay Branch) predates my use of spline. Here I used two layers of 3/8" plywood kerfed every inch about 2/3rd of the way through and then laminated together with glue and curved into the radius I wanted as I went along. I got the method from an MR article in the late 1980s by Rick Rideout.

-Creek00.jpg The Slater Creek trestle location had the roadbed and track built right through the scene with little regard for where the bridge would be. I did plan ahead enough to make sure no risers were in the middle of the bridge location. I also laid the track with shims so it was banked slightly on the curves.

 

-Creek01.jpg 
I roughed in the scenery and carefully cut out the roadbed and ties at the bridge location. That's right, I just left the rails hanging in mid-air!

 

-Creek02.jpg 
I took the roadbed that was removed and used it to draw a curve template for the trestle on a scrap of drywall. This way I could ensure the new bridge would match the roadbed curve exactly.

 

-Creek03.jpg As I built the trestle out of styrene, I made sure it matched the roadbed drawing exactly. This meant the hanging rails should drop right down onto the new bridge just as they sat on the roadbed. I used stripwood ties every 5th tie on the trestle so I could later spike down the rails to the bridge.

 

-Creek04.jpg When I fit the curved trestle up under the rails, it lined up perfectly! After test fitting the trestle into the location, I had built the trestle bents long so I trimmed them to fit the rough scenery contours. Then I mixed a putty-like batch of plaster (with retarder in it to give me about 30 min working time) and trowled it in place where the bridge would go. I fit the trestle under the rails and pressed it down into the thick plaster. Using some shims and c-clamps, I clamped the bridge up against the rails, then used a 1x4 and a paint can to press the trestle down into the plaster. Since I had trimmed the trestle bents to be exactly the right length to set on the rough scenery, I knew the bridge would be well supported. I used a plant mister to spray water down between the bents and wash any unnatural looking globs of plaster off the bents.

 

-Creek05.jpg Here's the finished styrene trestle with the plaster canyon work complete. To fasten the rails to the bridge, I used spikes I trimmed to about half length and spiked the rails down to stripwood ties (every 5th tie was stripwood). Notice the track on curved trestle is super-elevated slightly. The summit of the grade can be seen just past the trestle to the right.

 

-Creek08.jpg 
The finished scene was on the cover of the January 1997 Model Railroader promoting my article about mushroom benchwork. 


So the short answer is I first lay the track with little regard for the location of bridges, other than making sure there are no risers in the middle of the bridge location.

Then I make some kind of pattern (rubbing a pencil on a piece of paper over the rails, or using the cut out piece of roadbed as a pattern) and use that to build a bridge that matches the cut out location exactly. Grades don't care if there are bridges under the track or regular roadbed.

Joe Fugate​
Publisher, Model Railroad Hobbyist magazine

[siskiyouBtn]

Read my blog

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ctxmf74

MOW forces found significant structural damage to a few bridges

 Anyone know how long these bridges were?  Seems only the engine axles on the bridge at the same time could cause damage so shorter bridges shouldn't have a problem? Bridges could be designed to withstand heavy braking  but some older railroad bridges were built when heavy dynamic braking forces were non existent and might not have been worth replacing when lines were merging and consolidating their routes .......DaveB

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vincep

Most Stevens pass bridges

Are approximately in the 100 year old range with regular updates. Take into consideration how many trains have crossed those bridges in that time.
Vince P
Reply 0
sfprairie

Hey Jim Marlett -  Thanks for

Hey Jim Marlett -  Thanks for posting those RGS pictures.  I enjoyed them.

--Jeff

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Blitzen

Bridges on grades, good or bad idea?

HaHa - subject in the e-mail today reminded me of one of my favorite signs!

Have a great weekend everyone (and be safe).

IMG_3110.jpg 

 

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Leo Starrenburg

I had to

build the bridge and trestle of the F&B RR on a grade, there was no room to do them on the level. Works OK in On30.

 

Farmers & Bluestone Railroad, a small On30 layout located in The Netherlands

 

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roundwooduk

Building bridges on grades

Never mind the full size problems for a moment, the modelling is hard enough!  I chose to build my first, admittedly mercifully short, scratchbuilt trestle from stripwood on a 2% grade and a three foot radius curve - double trouble!  I was interested to read Joe Fugate's posting, but I wonder how you coped with the fact that on a grade the pylons will not be perpendicular to the roadbed?  In your photo of the inverted trestle it look as if they were perpendicular.  After much head scratching and careful measuring I mounted my pylons vertically on the right curve on a sub-base, glue in all the bents and stringers (do I remember all those terms correctly?) and then layed the separately made roadbed across the top.  To my considerable relief it all fitted perfectly, but it certainly was not easy.....

Modelling US outline in HO and the N&W over here in England is not easy either - though I love it.  MRH has been a Godsend, but Appalachian forests are still causing me problems..

Buying stuff from the USA used to be easy and cheap, but now postal charges have rocketed and our Post Office and Customs and Excise have started demanding their cut too!   And why, when N&W locos are justifiably commercially so popular, are coal hoppers and cabooses in such short supply?

Peter

 

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HN1951

Bridge on Steep Grade

The prototype I model had two bridges on a steep mountain grade, with a 4.2% ruling grade running through them.  One was a typical straight wood trestle around 60 feet long.  The other was a girder bridge with a curved, wooden trestle approach span with a total length over 200 ft.  The last bridge passed 70 feet above a creek below and the line continued upgrade for roughly 1.5 miles beyond this at the same grade.  Today you can walk over these bridges and the roadbed as it has been turned into a rail-trail.  

The model of this bridge (see below) could not capture the height due to space considerations, but does have the correct length and grade.  There are 2 water falls just up creek from the bridge, both of which are also included in the model (sorry they don't show in the photo).  The bridge was built on the workbench and dropped into place on the RR.  BTW, it is roughly 5 feet above the floor - sort of scary testing equipment on this with nothing below until scenery was roughed in.

 

Rick G.
​C&O Hawks Nest Sub-division c. 1951

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Eric G Peterson

Bridges on Grades Compensation for curves

What is missing from this discussion is compensation of the grade through curves to provide a uniform resistance for the trains.

There is more resistance to a train moving through a curve.  If the grade is uniform through all the curves there will be more train resistance when the train is moving through the curve.

Many railroad grades are designed to provide a uniform train resistance for trains moving up or down the grade.  To do this the grade percentage is reduced through each curve based on the degree (sharpness) of the curve. 

This can also be done on models.  Calculations would be different but the same principles apply.

Grades are not usually changed or reduced for bridges.  Rail anchors are critical to control rail movement.

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laming

Common

As has been noted in this thread, a bridge on grade is common. Don't know how effectively the grade will convey in this picture, but when seated in the seat, the grade ahead in this view is quite obvious. Looking at about a 2.5% upgrade.

1211b(1).jpg 

Andre

Kansas City & Gulf: Ozark Subdivision, Autumn of 1964
 
The "Mainline To The Gulf!"
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