Fascia mounted for me

I would put the controls on the fascia.  Either make the fascia one large control panel, or collect groups of switches into logical small groups and put them where an operator would stand for a given location.  The deciding factor for me would be how the operator will move.  If you will walk from switch to switch, moving with the train, then each control needs to be with its switch.  If you will walk to one spot and stand there while switching for a while, then collect all the controls and put them in that spot.

In other words, don't make your operator have to leave his proper location just to throw a switch,

I keep going back and forth - and now have two more options....

I keep going back and forth.  The problem is that there are situations where my own inclination would be to stay in one place and other situations affecting the same turnout(s) where, logically,  the operator wouId be either moving around or standing somewhere else

Consider switching a string of spine cars from the intermodal terminal into the yard (or vice versa).  That's going to require that cars traverse most of the layout to clear the yard ladder and then back in to the yard track.  But that involves turnouts in the leftmost section (to the left of the double overpass)  that someone performing switching chores to the various industries there will also need to control - most likely while positioned down at the left end.  (I'm not worried about conflicts between operators - I'd expect that, when there are two of crews working, they'll talk to one another.)

There are two other options, now that I think about it:  1) some switches controlled from either of two locations or 2) just DCC'ing the whole thing.

Two locations (does anyone have experience with it?)  has the disadvantage of a lot of wires - some across modules that will need to be separated when I move.

I haven't operated a layout which used DCC to control the turnouts, but I the consensus I've heard is that it's a nuisance even once the operator has memorized the turnout ID's.  And it ain't cheap (he said, planning to use 51 tortoise machines, rather than something smarter and less expensive - like Joe's cabinet latches.)

Distributed switching

I tend to use manual throws so I'm moving anyway.  I prefer to follow the locomotive and visually determine if the route is set appropriately and clear so I tend toward a distributed control system.

Twin coil machines using diode route selection only need one wire per route.  Mount the diodes and one set of momentary switches near the switch machines, extend the wires as needed to the central location and another momentary switch.  Roughly the same amount of wire needed, just extra switches and turnouts can be thrown from two locations resulting in both a distribution and a central control systems and anything in between.

Tortoise switches can be controlled the same way.  it takes more electronics at the tortoise end, but the same diodes and switches can do route control at multiple locations.  I used this method for controlling some staging tracks in my previous layout.

The actual panel locations were about 5 feet apart, but separated by 40 feet of aisle.

There are other articles about tortoise control systems out there that might work as well.

Terry

Use more than one panel

If you are using DCC controls, there's no need to limit yourself to one panel for each turnout.  You can have the same turnout appear on multiple panels if that serves your purposes.  You will want to use push buttons rather than toggle switches if that is the route you take, since the toggle will tend to indicate route, but that will not work if more than one toggle controls the same thing.  LEDs to show position would be needed in that case.

The other thing when using DCC is the wire runs can be reduced, as the control buss will connect the different panels and turnout decoders.  Interfaces between layout sections can have a minimum of wire.

What brand of turnouts will you use?

If you use Peco brand, you can throw them manually with skewers.  There is also this method from the February 2011 issue page 72 by Galen Galimore for an inexpensive method of doing it "on site" in walk around situations.

http://issuu.com/mr-hobbyist/docs/mrh11-02-feb2011-ol?viewMode=presentation&mode=embed

A blend of both of your ideas...

I am in the early stages of construction so haven't built controls yet but my intent is essentially a hybrid of your two stated options. The plan:

• Tortoise machines on all turnouts (machines and turnouts have been purchased)
• Subminiature momentary pushbutton panel switches
• Switches located on front fascia directly in line with turnouts (all)
• Panels on overhead fascia at areas of track congestion - yard, industrial district, coal loadout
• Panels will have schematic with switches at turnout markings
• Yard panel will have 2 routing switches located in middle of classification track markings (one switch operates west end route, one switch operates east end route of double ended yard)
• All switches will be one shot conditioned used as inputs to a J-K flipflop + transistor driver that controls Tortoise, panel LEDs, signaling, etc.
• Tortoise contacts control frog polarity
• Bicolor LEDs next to switches indicate turnout route on front fascia
• Bicolor LEDs rear illuminating entire active route and individual turnout positions on overhead fascia panels
• Staging will also have a panel similar to the yard except panel will be mounted on lower deck fascia
• Ribbon wire for all interconnections

This arrangement will work like 3 way light switches. Momentarily depressing any switch will reverse the turnout position. Not only does the flipflop action maintain current to the Tortoise it will also allow me to precede it with any logic circuit I wish. This method will allow me to insert a Basic Stamp if I really get carried away. The possibilities of "smart" turnouts and "smart" routes are endless. Turnouts can be controlled as encountered using the front fascia switches or when in congested areas turnouts and routes can optionally be controlled by using the overhead panels.

Man, just thinking about this stuff makes me want to pick up the pace. Sanding and mudding hardboard backdrops is so unrewarding compared to designing and building electrical controls. Oh well, first things first.

Please post pics of your installation once you decide which way to go.

Thank you, Mike and Alan

This has given me much food for thought. I would hesitate to give you advice on this, Mike. The magnitude of your trackage is ominous. I was thinking on the lines of Alan before I began reading his comments. The complexity of my modest layout is very minimal (probably would not support the word complex).

Question to Mike: Is that grid in your plan 6 inches?

Comment to Alan: Many thanks for the link to Parallax - phenomenal product offering with the BASIC Stamp. You must have worked quite a while in digital electronic control areas - yes?

Just a hobby

My lifelong hobby before I became re-interested in trains recently. Have released the factory sealed smoke from many an IC.

Own several Basic Stamps. I have an ancient IBM ThinkPad running Windows 3.1 and DOS dedicated to programming them. My old slot car layout used Stamps to control pit lane, refueling, lap counting, lap timing, and fuel consumption functions. Fun handy little devices.

First, thanks. Then a response

Thanks to all who responded. I'm overwhelmed and deeply appreciative for the responses.

To answer a couple of questions:

1. the grid is 6"
2. all track is Peco code 55
3. all switches are Peco medium (5 3/8") electrofrog
4. all turnouts are Tortoise controlled (until I come to me senses, anyway).
5. I spent the better part of the day looking at the costs of DCC'ing the whole shebang and, at something like $20.00 a turnout for 51 turnouts and counting (the  upper right isn't fully laid out yet) that's not in my tax bracket.  (Note: I already have more than enough switches and Tortoise machines.)
6. I have a 5 amp NCE Power Pro system and several boosters (overkill at the moment, but I'm a sucker for a great deal) and a radio controller, so I wasn't planning on wiring a control bus (stationary controllers for turnouts can be run off the power bus).  That may be short-sighted, given I have enough wire to run Joe's Siskiyou line from here in Connecticut.  Input appreciated on this one.

​I really like Alan's approach (without the use of an upper valance - if only because my free standing tables won't support an upper valance), but my electrical/circuit expertise level is about at the level of "Hey, what's that green thing with all that neat stuff on it?"  I did find a(n English rather than Electronese) wiring schematic for inserting LEDS between a SPDT switch and the Tortoise,  but  I'm not sure how to mess it up by replacing the SPDT with  two push buttons.  (Alan, you're a great guy and all, but I have trouble plugging a three-pronged plug into a three hole socket, just so you know what level of electrical skill you're dealing with here....)

Follow along

I don't know your timeframe but if you can tolerate my snail's pace development then just watch the LK&O blog. I have been posting everything as I go. There will no doubt be quite a few posts when wiring time arrives with all the mind numbing detail you can tolerate.

If you know someone willing to solder it together for you hand them this circuit. About $5 worth of Radio Shack parts and you have a pushbutton turnout controller. Add as many pushbuttons to it as necessary.

Following along.....

Thanks.

I'm incredibly grateful for the roadmap to Mandalay... or the route up Mt. Everest... or the diagram of the digestive system of the tse-tse fly.... or whatever it was,,,,

Truth in lending: I can identify the push button, the resistors (unless they're a map for a road race that's somewhat less than half the length of a marathon) and the Christmas tree lights by the highway passing zone, but I do have a friend for whom it'll make sense - so I do thank you. (I think.)

Chips, resistors, diodes, oh my!

Too funny!!!! Make a left at the 555. You can't miss it.

op amp

I use a quad op amp LM324 and some resistors to make a pair of RS flip flops.  Set and Reset are the inputs which are the inputs from  the momentary switches.  This has the advantage of providing a button for each route when combined with diode routing.

This single chip will control two tortoise machines.  The op amp has enough current drive for the tortoise so no additional components are needed to drive the tortoise.  Panel lights can be provided by putting back to back 15ma plus leds in series with the tortoise.

Terry

Terry: I said that I knew nothing....

Terry:

I said that I knew nothing and I didn't.  But I said I had a friend who knew a lot and he did.

Knowing nothing about model railroading, Tortoise switch machines or anything else except being a whiz in electronic circuitry, here's what he came up with (after reading your post and about the things he didn't know):

The thing about this circuit is that it allows multiple locations to control the same turnout.  You can even use it to control a single turnout that is part of one or more route selectors (just wire the push button for each route selector to the straight or diverging routes as if they were part of a new control panel  - with this circuit, no additional diode matrices are necessary.

And it's inexpensive.  Really inexpensive.

I have to thank you and my friend (who I'd be more than happy to name the moment he gives me the okay, although his name will mean nothing here).  In no time, I've acquired just enough knowledge to be dangerous (hence the "idiot proofing" additional diode to protect the circuit. He's a friend, but he's a realist, too....

Thanks to both of you (and Alan), more than any of you can know,

Mike

Added by edit:  Looking back over the thread, I think perhaps Alan should have gotten the top billing.  For making that mistake, I hereby award him twice the thanks I awarded Terry and my friend - combined.  But I still thank Terry, as well. (My friend has been well thanked.)

What if?

Mike, glad to see things working out for you. I see you decided to go the double switch route. One curiosity I have is to ask your friend what happens if both switches are depressed at the same time?

What if? Nothing bad, at any rate....

My friend's answer:

And the First Try at a Control Panel layout ....

(Before I start, there have been a couple of minor changes in the track plan from the thread on the plan - the most relevant of which is reduction of intermodal terminal spurs from six to four. One lesser one is the use of double slip switches to give the impression that this is a congested area.  For those who want to see the latest track plan, I don't want to waste bandwidth, but you can see it here.

Now for the panel:

(Added by edit:  Image got cut off, full image is here.

A quick explanation, since, after reading other threads on control panels, I tried to make mine as self explanatory as possible....

1. The legend will be on the panel.  It explains the three different route selectors for a new operator.  But, instead of a rotary switch, route selection is accomplished by push button.  The single origination/destination is represented by a LED which will flash on when any of the options for a given route is selected (for example, for  the red route, the LED is above the "S" in "Southside" on the left side of the panel.
2. Only turnouts which can be controlled individually from this panel have push buttons (there are three, represented by the pairs of black dots where the local tracks join the main at either end of the layout.  The one at the west end, heading west and the one at the east end heading east are for the operators of the freights making a quick stop here to drop off blocks of cars on the A/D track.  Note that turnouts on the main are controlled by the dispatcher, so the local panel shows the position of the turnouts, but has no way to control them. (The turnout heading East on the left side is for traversing the main on the way to Northside)
3. All of the turnouts, whether controlled by routing switches push buttons or not controlled from this panel have LEDs indicating their status.  I happen to prefer single color LEDs on the branches from the switch over red/green LED's, but with push buttons, it might have been cleaner to have a single R/G LED and the two pushbuttons on the alternative routes.  The problem is I didn't want to confuse operators by making the LED colors the same as the route button colors and I can't find three alternate colored buttons for the routes.
4. The "DTW" and "DTE" are location identifiers used when contacting the dispatcher for permission (and routing) to gain access to the Main.
5. The spacing on the panel between tracks is 1.5" vertically, centerline to centerline.  That's about twice the vertical spacing on the standard key board.  The panel, as drawn is 5' long - I'm going to have to do something about that, I expect. 
6. The turnouts along the west yard lead are actually in Southside and will appear on that panel, as well (the lead serves double duty as the run-around track for switching Southside)

There will be two other panels - one for Southside and one for Northside. (Aren't those clever names? .)

BTW, I want to thank those who commented on another thread (Alan's as I recall) involving control panels.  It's from those comments that I kept the track colors to black and grey, rather than coloring every track by usage.  Also thanks for reminding me to add the "East" and "West" indicators - to me East is always to the right and West to the left - just look at any Google map....

Yet another addendum added by edit:

Question: Should I add the button for the electromagnetic uncoupler (there's only one that's relevant to this panel) or leave it on the fascia?  I suspect that spotting a block of cars ove the uncoupler from 6'-8' away is not the easiest task and there's an abundance of permanent magnetic uncouplers as well.  On the other hand,  I plan to insitute a very unprototypical practice to mark uncoupler locations - a white post with a "U" on it  (think of the "whistle" sign approaching a grade crossing) so operators know where the uncouplers, electromagnetic or permenant, are (and, at my age, so I can remember where they are, as well). 

About maps

Well, I am not a professional cartographer (map maker), but the convention in drawing maps is the North is toward the top (upward); hence West is always to the Left and East is always to the Right (and South is behind you) - if you are standing directly on the North Pole or the South Pole, then there are exceptions here.

With Google, if you are using the satellite with street view, then you can orient North wherever you want, which allows to to view the area as you face it.

Often, cartographers placed a North indicator on the map as shown here:

This was an absolute necessity in creating maps or sketches for land surveying.

Possible Point of Confusion

Legend states blue = Thoroughfare

Diagram has red and green on track labeled Thoroughfare

I understand what you are doing but to someone just walking up to the panel it could be confusing at first.

Song Song Blue, everybody knows one....

Alan, you aren't the only one who sees a problem with what I thought was my brilliant contribution to control panel design.

Any suggestion on how to explain that the button color represents one end of a routing's "span of control" (while the individual buttons represent the other one)?

The idea is that pushing a button controls all switches between that button and the LED of the same color.  The blue one is particularly troublesome, because one can come at the blue LED using blue buttons from either direction (or leave the thoroughfare track heading for a blue destination in either direction) - but there are only so many colors of LEDs and, more immediately, so many colors of button.

Why have colors?

Don't let this turn your world upside down... I don't see the need for colors! Put a break in the yard tracks diagram to separate east from west. That removes red and green. Blue is not needed either. When I push a button on a service track I already know where I am going else I would not have pushed the button. The yellow LEDs at the turnouts will confirm my route has been selected.

I suspect you will also need switches at each turnout for individual control. Movements of locos/cars will not always be the standard routes. You will need a means of overriding routes at times. For instance, if a switcher is working the yard and you want to move a loco from say the engine facility to the RIP track to move a car. You don't want route selection to throw all the turnouts on the west end of the ladder just to make the move. The switcher's work would be interrupted if you do so.

First a quick note on push

First a quick note on push buttons versus toggles.  I found spring loaded.center off momentary SPDT toggle switches, so push buttons (for single turnout control) are out and toggles are in.

Now to your questions:

That yard is used primarily for storage, not classification.  Downtown receives three scheduled freights a day (and perhaps one extra.)  Two are intermodal expresses (one westbound and one eastbound) that could take cars right off intermodal yard tracks (those tracks are one for each of the three other destinations served by the express service, and one for any overflow), except that it'll be faster for the expresses if the blocks are pre-positioned in the yard.( There's a carefully choreographed "dance") to get the intermodals in and out quickly.  The other freight turn is from the division point yard.  It drops off the local deliveries and picks up all outbound traffic for classification at the DP yard. At best (worst?) the local crews may have to divide the inbound traffic into loads headed for Northside and those headed for Southside.

All that means that movements of cars within the yard will involve blocks, far more often than single cars and with much of the the west end lead serving as part of the runaround for Southside, most movements are going to involve conflicts whenever more than one crew is working downtown (The most planned are two crews).  It's planned that way. City acreage is expensive.

(BTW, your example of a locomotive leaving the engine facility and heading for the RIP track doesn't work - both are in the "Blue" zone and would affect only the turnouts within (the west end of) the Blue Zone.  Engineer shows up for work, selects his track, runs out to the turnaround, selects the RIP track - only the three turnouts are affected.in total - even though all of those *may* be affected if someone operating in the Red zone want to access the Thoroughfare track (which is also in the red zone).

Any crew working the yard storage tracks via the red zone buttons wouldn't be setting any of the blue zone turnouts.

As for more single turnout switches on the panel, you're probably correct.  But they won't be difficult to add as needed.  The control panel will have a flip open front and more terminal strips than Carter had Little (Liver) Pills. Drill a hole on the faceplate, insert toggle, solder wires to toggle (no diodes necessary for single turnout controls), screw wires to normal and reverse terminals for appropriate turnout's circuit board and close panel. (check you got the right directions, if not, open panel, unscrew and reverse wires, close panel and check again.)

I'd rather have too few switches and have to add them then clutter up the panel with too many.  (BTW, the other two panels - for Northside and Southside - will be heavily weighted towards singe turnout control, rather than route control.  Until I get into deep thought, I'm not sure there will be any routing controls on either.)

On splitting the yard tracks in the contol panel diagram, I dunno....  My first impression looking at it is that there are two yards there.  I'm thinking more along the lines of changing the text on the panel from "Legend" to something like "Route Start/End" or even "Span of Control".  Those are strictly printed symbols, not working LED's or switches.

Mike

Re: Possible Point of Confusion

Alan:

Does replacing the Legend with the following make it clearer?

I must be misunderstanding

It's not the legend that I don't understand. It's the fact that I am apparently on a green/red track (thoroughfare) when I have selected a blue route. Here is how it functionally is to me. Where am I going wrong?