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Hi Neo:

looked at your space sketch. Can you add to it electrical panel(s) , water heather(s) and other immovable(s) that may be in there?. Side door(s)?.

Gentlemen, start your CADs!.

15" ?

That seems awfully narrow.  Are you talking about having only 15" of room to walk through?  I'm guessing you've served on a submarine for a while!

Told you I was new!!!!

It's a 30' walkthru with a 15' floor above concrete. I'll post the changed pix in next go.

That's really all there is. a whole bunch of space with a 15 foot ceiling !

About Bruce

Guys, Bruce is my neighbor. He's talking about a 15" raised floor on a mushroom when he says "walkway".

Anyhow, he's got a great space for a mushroom if he wanted to do it, with a 15 foot ceiling (although he does have a small section with an 8 foot ceiling along one end).

Bruce: If you want to check out another layout that's a mushroom design of the SP Dunsmuir route, circa 1952, see this link:

http://www.spshastaroute.com

Garage image updated at top of thread

Latest garage image posted to keep this to a single thread. Other threads have been deleted.

Bruce: Use the reply link below to keep your comments on this thread - that's better than starting completely new threads.

MRH Site Admin

Thanks

Okay. Thanks for the help.  I'm still learning!

Come on peeps, I need all the help I can get!!  If you had that room what would do?

Bruce

Gsarage doors let in dirt, bugs, drafts, and weather.

The first thing I would do is build some walls with studs and drywall floor to ceiling around the layout area both between the car space in the garage and the behind the garage door.  It will be a lot easier to keep the layout clean if it is in it's own room.  When or if it comes time to sell, the walls won't be load bearing, so they can easily be taken down to open up the space.  You would need to build a "box" to enclose the garage door when it is in the up position. 

I agree - enclose the space

In addition to enclosing the space, I would suggest giving some thought to climate control.  If not temperature, at least humidity.  In many ways, a garage is a poor place for a layout.

On the space, it looks like it breaks down into a 15' square with a 9'x10' box on one side.  That's a pretty good bit of room, especially with a 15' ceiling.  With that much layout, you're going to need more than 1 single 20A circuit.  How much power do you have available?

The reason for my comments about power:

You mention DCC.  That much layout will probably have at least one, possibly 2 10A boosters.  Assuming that ALL your power needs on the layout (except lighting) come through them, that's up to 20A before you shut things down.  Code requires that you not plan on exceeding 80% of a circuit's design capacity, meaning you have 16A available on that 20A circuit.  You've already exceeded it, and that's before you plug in an electric drill or lamp or battery charger.  Given that you won't generally be using the full 20A capacity of a pair of 10A boosters, I think it would be acceptable to put them (and nothing else) on a 20A circuit.  Then there are the lights - on my little 11'x13' layout with about 35' of main line, I'm looking at 8 T8 flourescent bulbs, which at 32 W apiece comes to 256 W, or about 2.5A in a 110V circuit.  I would expect you to need 3-4 times that, depending on your track plan and preferences.  That is another 7.5-10A, which I would consider enough of a load to consider a dedicated circuit.  In other words, for a layout of the size you're talking I would at the very least run a pair of 20A circuits straight from the breaker box.  I know plenty of people don't, but the electrical codes are there for a reason, and it seems like a small price to pay for protecting things, avoiding problems, and making the inspectors and insurance companies happy.

I don't think the 10 amp boosters really draw 10 amps.

The 10 amps is on the secondary or low voltage side of the boosters.  On the 110 volt side it is probably less than 2 amps per booster.  Still I would agree that extra circuits for both power and lighting is definitely a must for a dedicated layout room with a large layout.

Load Center

Bruce,

First off, I can't use my CAD program 'cause I drooled all over the keyboard when I saw the size of your space.  Wow!

With regard to electrical, you might consider having an electrician install a 4 to 6 circuit load center ( 15 and/or 20 amp breakers), just for layout power and lights.  Locate it somewhere near the exit to the room, then when you leave the room, you can shut off power and be assured that nothing can cause a problem (i.e. fire) when you're not there.

Perhaps circuits for work lights, layout lighting, layout power, workbench and general tool power.

Wow, what a space.

Ran into head first

Take heed of the advice to correctly plan your electrical needs. I didn't do the calculations when I was wiring my basement. Instead, I pulled a 15A circuit for train room lighting and a 15A circuit for train room plugs. Just as you would do for any room addition to a house. Now, a year and a half later with the basement sheetrock finished and painted I did the actual math for lighting the layout which is a double deck around a 28' x 30' room. To my dismay I discovered 15A (12A useable) is not nearly enough capacity for lighting the layout and the room lights. My only option now is to use LED strip lighting on the layout which will be considerably more expensive than traditional florescent. Had I done the math when the walls were bare I would have realized that I should be pulling a 30A or pair of 20A's for lighting. Live and learn.

Accurately calculate your electrical needs before you begin. Wish I would have.

Yes, amps are tied to volts

Amps are tied to volts - so a 10 amp booster at 14 volts is 1.2 amps at 120V.

No worries - a 15 amp circuit at 80% can handle 100 amps at 14 volts.

OOPS!

Sheesh!  How did I miss such an obvious mistake?  In any case, I would argue that the power needs of a large layout, including the lighting, can easily exceed a single 20A circuit.  Still, I apologize for the obviously faulty math.  Take it as a reminder to always check and verify all advice!

I think I would have the following circuits installed.

Here in California, lighting circuits are generally on 15 amp breakers.  Receptacles are on 20 amp breakers.  I would have a minimum of 2 lighting circuits, one for room lighting, and one for layout lighting.  Talk to your electrician because they will know how many light fixtures you can put on a 15 amp breaker before you need another circuit, and the electrical is cheap when walls are open studs, but much more expensive to put in after drywall is finished.  I would also install at least 2-20 amp receptacle circuits.  One 20 amp circuit would be to run the railroad, and the other for powering tools. I would install a receptacle every 6 feet on the bench work for power tools or soldering irons.  The receptacles can be hidden behind the fascia rather than being out in plain site.  Here the code requires any remodel to have a receptacle every 6 feet or closer on every wall in the main living space, closets being the exception.  As the inspector explained it to me while we were remodeling, the city would like to have buildings constructed so that there is no need for the use of extension cords.  You may need to explain to the inspector that the extra receptacles are not for the purpose of running extra devices, but simply to allow you to plug in a power tool where it is needed.   

Suggested first step

No idea if this is how others go about it but it worked for me. First thing I did after my G&D lists was to create the operational schematic of my railroad. The schematic provided a "roadmap" for me as I experimented with different track/bench arrangements in my available space. Essentially the same process I use to design/build electronics circuits. Figure out the hook-ups then figure out component placement on the board.

My schematic is too simplistic as to make a good example for you but here is an example of a complex one.

Not a track plan...

But you might find this interesting:

https://secure.flickr.com/photos/47911905@N00/sets/72157611614774144/detail/

The photographer (or Flickr) has even mapped the photos:

https://secure.flickr.com/photos/47911905@N00/sets/72157611614774144/map/

Here is a detailed explanation of the line as it is currently (scroll down a bit):

http://home.earthlink.net/~donwinter/Railroad%20Infrastructure%20and%20Traffic%20Data/Trunk%20Routes/SP%20I-5%20Corridor/Route%20Descriptions/Binney%20Junction%20to%20Klamath%20Falls.htm

The Black Butte Subdivision, which is what you intend to model, is also discussed here:

http://www.westcoastrailforums.com/forum-90.html

Here's a story about the Black Butte Sub from 1991:

http://www.trainlife.com/magazines/pages/430/31506/june-1991-page-24

Engineering record of the Natron Cutoff:

http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=hhdatapage&fileName=ca/ca2400/ca2460/data/hhdatapage.db&recNum=1&itemLink=D?hh:1:./temp/~ammem_adHE::

Thanks for all the help folks:

Please keep it coming. Joe, if you're going to be correcting my spelling (after I ran it through the Spell Checker) you'll have another full time job.  

Let me elaborate on my garage a little bit more. Since the garage was built to house a 38' motorhome withe someone living in it, that's why there is so much extra space. The space is heated and cooled and pretty well sealed from the environment.

To answer Kens query, there is a 100 amp service box about 20 feet away from the 6 o'clock wall on the drawing.  I just checked and there are 3 empty holes in the box.  This would allow for a 50 amp service with 220 volt or 60 amp service with 110 volts in the "train room". I just envision 20' of romex to a box hung on the 6 o'clock position of the post at mid 6 o'clock. (got that

Ken as far as the lighting goes the garage is set up withe withe T8's all over the place and the ability to double them up if necessary.  Just counted, in the train room there 10 bulbs.

Alan thanks for the advice, well taken.

Joe, do I really need to block off the room since it's kind of like yours, being air tight and climate controlled?

I'm headed to the library to look for those maps!

Thanks all,

Bruce

Double-Deck layout

Jeez, Bruce, sounds like an awesome space.  You mentioned making a mushroom layout.  What about making a multi-deck mushroom layout?  With a 15-foot ceiling, you could build a whole second floor and still have headroom.  Literally another floor deck.  Combined with a mushroom design..... it boggles the mind!!  A 10-level layout!!!!

So how many turns of a helix would be needed to traverse a 15-foot vertical climb?  I wonder....... and, how many hundreds of feet of track would be in such a helix?!!!

Seriously, though, it sounds like you have a good idea what you want, and are asking the right questions on how to reach your goal.  Enjoy!

Just my 1.1 cents.  (That's 2 cents, after taxes.)

Kevin

Wow, nice space!

I've never had a large space for a layout, but am wondering how big a layout becomes more work than fun for one person to clean and maintain?  Kevin's idea might be tempting, but you could conceivably build a layout that is bigger than you can handle by yourself.  I'm wondering if some folks here who have large layouts can chime in on the amount of work large layouts require to keep operating enjoyably.  Of course, the way the room is finished will determine to a large extent how much problem you have with dirt, dust, and critters.

By the way, I don't remember if I made this recommendation before, but you should consider putting stud walls all of the way around your layout space, including between the layout and the old garage door that was used for the motor home in the past.  I would leave the door in place and just lock it and put the wall right inside of it.  If you ever need or want to sell the house, having an RV garage might be of more value than a model railroad room. 

But it could be the Helix of a lifetime!

Let's see - 15 feet.    That's 180 inches.  Let's assume the lowest track level is 48 inches off the floor.  That leaves 132 inches.  Then the second floor deck is 7-1/2 feet off the floor, giving 7-1/2 feet left to the ceiling.  So let's make the topmost track at about 5-1/2 feet, or 24 inches down from the ceiling.  Ummmm, that leaves 108 inches between.  Lemme see - - - - if I divide 108 by maybe 5 inches climb per turn - - - that makes 21.6 turns.  Sounds about right!

I recall a cartoon in a dead-tree magazine showing two guys in the basement with a helix going up thru the floor.  One guy is telling the other "The other end connects to the layout in the attic...."

Kevin

ps - if we do a 60-inch diameter track centerline (30-inch radius), then this is... um... carry the 2.... uh ..... 339 feet of track.  19 Boxes of Micro Engineering.  No problem!