Above Eye Level

For me the proper backdrop height is far enough eye level you don't notice the top edge. I suppose it would depend on the height of you and/or your bench work. 18" backdrop on 53" bench work = 71" total for me.

http://www.lkorailroad.com/double-deck-arrangement/

Agreed, backdrop + layout height = intertwined

Dear 3Truck, Alan,

Agreed, can't talk backdrop height without also taking into consideration

- layout height (IE "ground level")
- and viewer average height.

For home use my personal standing "just under my nose" level is around 1550mm,
which is about where I put "track level datum"
(gives me a scale approx 12' eye level in HO, or approx 5' in O),

for show use I drop that to around 1350mm,
and have standardised on

- 300mm/12" + "curved backdrop<> roof"

or

- 450mm/18" "pure vertical backdrop, no roof"

module formats...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

eye level

Horizon on back-drop should be at  your eye level.  Horizon - not sky-line.  Horizon is the level of the ocean if you had one on the back-drop.

Worst location is to put horizon at track level.

Horizon level

"Horizon on back-drop should be at  your eye level.  Horizon - not sky-line.  Horizon is the level of the ocean if you had one on the back-drop.

One, for track level photos, a high horizon looks out of place.  That would almost force the photos to be taken from viewer eye level to look right.

Second, even for a viewer standing in the aisle, the high horizon line can make the 3-D portion of the layout look like it's at the bottom of a pit, or alternately like the backdrop scenery is floating above the layout someplace.

Third, perspective issues with high horizons emphasize the disconnect between the 3-D and 2-D scenes.  Roads and buildings start to take off in what appear to be weird directions from anything but a direct, straight-on view.

Fourth, what happens when you have multiple decks?  Do they all share the same horizon?

Finally, the human mind has a great ability to make sense of what it's seeing if the inputs seem "right."  Since a horizon close to track level allows for an easy flow between 3-D and 2-D, the brain puts it all together as being a coherent whole.  Because of the perspective issues, the eye level horizon can end up less realistic since the foreground and background don't flow as readily into one another.

Here's a backdrop I painted illustrating the above, on Lee Nicholas' Utah Colorado Western:

Photo credit Lee Nicholas http://www.ucwrr.com/tracksidephotos/40.html

Although this photo is taken from an oblique angle to the painted structures, they still look more or less OK since the perspective used minimizes changes in their appearance due to different viewing angles.  This view wouldn't be as realistic with an eye-level horizon that forced the buildings and adjacent trees to conform to different perspective requirements.

Ah, 2 things for OP to consider

1. Backdrop height
2. Horizon location

The 71" I spoke of was top of physical backdrop (blue sky). Will have to do a little trial and err to determine the horizon line when I get to that point.

Backdrop Height

I'm building an around-the-room layout with a "J" shaped peninsula extending into the center of the room.  The top of the bench work (track height) is 56" off the floor.  I made the backdrop, behind the bench work attached to the walls, 24" high so the overall height of the top edge of the backdrop is 80" off the floor.  The backdrop down the middle of the peninsula is 30" high so the top of this backdrop is 86" off the floor.  This was done to mask the lights on the other side of the peninsula.  I am 6'4" tall and the tops of all of these backdrops are well above my eye level.  I painted both the backdrops and the wall behind them the same color of sky blue so the top edge of the backdrop would not stand out from the wall.

Bob

If you are simply building a

If you are simply building a shelf layout around the room, why not go to the ceiling which is typically 96". All you are doing at this point is painting the backdrop a sky blue. So take advantage of all the height you can. When it comes to horizon and other physical structure, following Mr. Spangler's ideas make sense. Even if I was building a peninsula, I would extend the sky to the ceiling. Building up only 24" takes as much engineering as going to the ceiling, so why not.

Steve

The Sky's the Limit

I agree with Steve - use all of the vertical surface for the sky.  The real sky doesn't end "part way up" and paint isn't that expensive.  I've got 9 ft high ceilings in my train room and the sky goes all the way up including the ceiling which is painted blue.

Rick

Backdrop Height

The reason I didn't take my backdrops all the way to the ceiling was the amount of 1/8" hardboard that would have been needed to do this.  At 24" wide, I can get two 8' pieces from a 4' x 8' sheet of hardboard.  In the case of the 30" wide backdrops on the peninsula, I can get the 30" wide pieces and an 18" wide piece for fascia from a 4' x 8' piece.  The arrangement that I described above works fine for me since the top edges of the backdrops are well above my eye level.  Also taking the backdrops all the way up to the ceiling on the peninsula potentially would have cut off proper air circulation within the train room which is essential for the heating and, especially, air conditioning.

Bob

You don't need to take the back drop all the way to the ceiling.

Presuming that you will blend your sky color so that it is nearly white at the horizon and then graduates to your blue sky appearance, you can paint the walls the full sky blue, blend your backdrop and have the top of the backdrop match the blue of the walls and ceiling.  You probably won't even be able to see where the back drop ends and the walls begin from more than three feet away.

My Plan Exactly

My same thought from the beginning hence the 18" backdrop.

This is my Opinion and I'm

This is my Opinion and I'm Not bashing anyone, just giving my opinion on what others think compared on how I see the world so please don't feel picked on.

First I feel that the sky is the unlimited end. I have always made my back drops at least as high as the ceiling is low. anything less and I feel it makes your railroad looks like a toy train set the 9 year old should be playing with and only 18 inches maybe ok for the mushroom type shelf railroads but I see my railroad more in line with John Allen with majestic mountains and vast horizons and tall mountains with trains running on multiple levels of track from waist to just above my head traversing steep canyon walls and crossing vast crevices on small wooden trestles.

I also don't consider track level to be the horizon. I mean really who goes out and lays down on the railroad tracks to see the horizon. Personally in real life I'm seeing the horizon from 6+ feet above the tracks and not from ground level. On my railroad for me the horizon is some where on the other side of my mountains.

After 50 years of model Railroading that's How I see my HO world, As an infinite world with no floors or ceilings and no limits, just a vast miniature world  that I have complete control of. Bwaaahhaha

Made Me Think

Where does the model end and infinity begin? Made me realize the topography should play a critical role in determining where the backdrop stops. In my case the world is mostly Midwest rolling countryside so a taller backdrop just means more hardboard painted blue. The walls are already blue so why waste the hardboard? The peninsula component of my railroad is the Allegheny mountains so the backdrop needs to be higher. Fortunately the peninsula backdrop will go all the way to the ceiling not because of the horizon but to view block the lighting on the other side. I think it's gonna' work.

1. Viewer height
2. Benchwork height
3. Topography
4. Viewing distance
5. Backdrop shape (straight or curved at top)

The list of considerations is getting longer and longer.

try theatre black drapes?

Dear MRH team,

Dan mentioned

Hmm, visually "no limits" sounds rather like a theatrical stage, with black drapes surrounding the "feature piece",

such that it appears to "float" in a lack-of-visual-context space,

much like Totternhoe Mineral...

http://carendt.us/scrapbook/page95a/totternhoe.jpg

http://my.gn15.info/imga0214.jpg

http://my.gn15.info/imga0132.jpg

http://forum.gn15.info/viewtopic.php?t=3334

Just thinking laterally...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

Backdrop heights

I do not have a layout (yet) but have spent a lot of time thinking about the engineering aspects of building one (deck height, backdrops, etc.)  I just did a quick and rough experiment on my office wall and if I (5'6") use the elbow height (44") that Joe suggested and standing 30" away from the wall (to represent a 24" shelf), then the top of a 24" high backdrop would hit right at the top of my glasses.  So anything over 68"-70" above the floor I probably won't see anyway especially if I am looking slightly down at my model. 

Then I started thinking, what would it look like if I put a slight curve in the top 3"-6" of the backdrop to make it appear to be coming over my head like the sky curves over us in real life.  This could become part of a valance system which I would want to do to support lights and for dust control.

just me 2 cents worth.

Curved Backdrop-->Roof system ; works fine

Dear Jim,

Works fine in module situations,

http://www.krmodels.com.au/module.html

http://carendt.us/scrapbook/page87/index.html

and is a time-honoured technique in architecture, theatre, and "Themed Event Production"

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

Dear Prof Klyzlr Thank you

Dear Prof Klyzlr

Thank you for the confirmation and for the link to krmodels.  That provided so much info and gave me a lot of good ideas.  I had stumbled on the carendt site a while back and it was very helpful too.  For a lot of reasons I have become a fan of small layouts especially ones that can be built as modules.

Thanks again

Back Drop Height

I visited a 150 member HO/HOn3 Club in Maryland this past Sunday May 22, 2011. They have constructed a double deck around and through the building duel era 1940 - 2011 mushroom style RR. The lower level is set up as a 1960-2011 Union Pacific and CSX with some Southern Pacific and Santa Fe engines and cars. They have mostly flat terrain with rolling hills and that's painted on the Backdrop as there are no grades on this level. There are 4 Yards and 6 small towns and 2 fairly large cities with aprox. 750 feet of bench work in a large flowing triple S with 36 in Min radius.

All their lighting is set up with directional dimmable lighting under the front edge pointing back into the layout and doesn't shine into your eyes due to a very well constructed valance. They do most of their Operations on this level. They still have most of the ballast and scenery left to complete with about 25% still open grids. The unfinished portion of the Diesel era RR is about 140 feet long and 2 foot deep but fully operational. there is 24" between the decks and they have a curved back drop which comes up to within 8 inches of the valance and over top of the lower level which gives a very good look and illusion of infinite sky. You also can not see the upper Deck from this side. The area above the RR is hinged so they have access to the wiring for the upper Deck and unless you really search for the hinge line you don't notice it until opened.

The upper Deck is for the Steam ERA members and is duel gauge so they can run HO standard as well as HOn3 Narrow Gauge engines on the same line. This is on the back side and above the Diesel lines and the Back drop also has a curved overhead about 32 inches tall and curves up to 46 inches above the surface coming out to within 8 inches of of the valance with the same type lighting. the have many bridges and rivers some flowing along the edge and others coming off water falls from the back of the 26 inch deep deck out to the front.

The Back Drops were very well done by three artists members of the Club. They would not allow me to photograph any part of the RR as they have a number of members producing a set of 10 Videos and a photo Book to be introduced in late 2012 with all proceeds to go to the clubs operation costs. They said they didn't want anything put out on the internet for free. But I tried and wish I could show what they have done.

Prof. Klyzlr has posted a site showing a good rendition of how to construct these curved over head back drops. I think the use of hinging the over head for access which both covers all the turnout controllers and wiring and brings the sky out to above the viewers head is an excellent idea.

for some of us...

it's tall enough to hide the water heater.

(No--- most of these ideas are better than mine)