Sounds like..

Dear Joshua,

Sounds like it's worth getting in contact with Lance M at ShelfLayouts.com

https://www.shelflayouts.com/

Happy Modelling, 

Aim to Improve,

Prof Klyzlr

I emailed him! Thank you!

I emailed him! Thank you!

Lance Mindheim

Lance has a series of books that are vey helpful. I have all five and I refer to them quite often.

Wayne

Search on TOMA..

Use the search box in the upper right to search for "TOMA." You'll find it worth  your while - it's possibly the ideal clean sheet method of designing and building a layout that you can run as it grows. 

Layout designers?

Hopefully you'll find one who will first off tell you how much time,effort,and money it will cost to build and maintain an 8000 sq ft layout. My "retirement" layout is about 450 sq ft and it seems like a lot of work at times. I could envision  larger more complicated  layouts when I was younger but I'm over that now :> ) ....DaveB

Cool, but caution

A layout that size needs a number of people to get it off the ground, get it to a reasonable state, and to run it.  Talking to Lance Mindheim is an excellent idea.  This blog post of his on why layouts fail might also be interesting:

https://lancemindheim.com/2014/01/layouts-fail-three-headed-monster/

If you can make a layout of that size successfully though, that would be cool indeed!

Replies

Lance said no to helping me and so did the guy that does the journal of a model railroader. I’m only 25 so I got plenty of years to build it and to find people to help with it. I’m gonna design it as a club style layout because of its size as well. Like I want some design done out of house basically but most of it. I’m going to design it. I just need help getting my thoughts right. 

Look into TOMA

So far, all of yalls ideas

So far, all of yalls ideas are great. I will for sure look into the TOMA approach. Kinda what I already had planed anyways. I was thinking about doing 6' sections give or take for wall sections and etc. Wiring up and doing everything to the sections other than scenery. 

8000 sq ft

While in my younger then my current 69 years old days I don’t ever think I planned a layout over 6000 sq. ft. I did own a old chicken building roughly 20’ wide x 300’ long. Never got passed laying the concrete floor.

Nice big dream at 8000 sq.ft. and I hope your wallet is flush.

I figured when I read someone suggested contacting Lance he would say no. Rob Chant if that’s you contacted is an advocate for buildable smaller layouts. Good luck on the 8000 sq.ft. dream.

No matter the size you end up drawing and building really get a plan drawn for what the 1st sections will REALLY be and how they will connect to the balance of the layout. No matter the size of a layout, small, medium or large they are not built over night. So start with say 1000 sq. feet of the 8000 total and go from there. Heck 1000sq.ft can be 10’x100’, or 20’x50’ with many more combinations of wall lengths. That alone is a huge layout and since we are going 8000 sq. ft. you might  as well put the lowest staging yard at 30”, the main deck at 46” and the top deck at 62”. Plan at least a 9’ ceiling and 6’ aisles

I want to follow this build as it transpires, please post frequently 

TomO
 

Most of the online designers will charge you for a design.

You will go through a survey/interview process if you agree to it.  A lot of them are booked up months in advance, so it might be awhile before one can get to it.  However, if you have the money it could be well worth it.

I recommend that you pour through a lot of the track plan books to get ideas.  There was a large plan in one of the track planning books that was nice.  I think it was titled "If I had a million..."  However, a lot of the smaller plans had issues.  Then again, you do have a large experienced body of model railroaders here.  Draw up a scale plan of your space, posted it here, describe what kind of model railroading you like.  The suggestions and questions will start rolling in.

You could start here describing your take on what type of railroading you want to emulate.  Have you chosen an era?  What type of equipment do you want to run?

Den

Stop!

STOP!

Not trying to be rude but it sounds like you don’t have much model railroading experience and may be walking into a buzzsaw of trouble.  My apologies if I am not correct about this.

First thing is consider the magnitude of what you are trying to do including the size.  Even if you have someone else design and build the layout, can you manage it once it is complete?  Normally something this size takes several people to run and maintain the layout. 
 

Joe

To each their own but after

To each their own but after many years of building several N scale layouts to varying stages of completion and then switching to HO, aborting the first HO attempt and then spending eight years on my current HO  spare room size layout, I can't imagine trying to fill a huge room.

After said eight years I have a mostly operational layout with the "base level" scenery done across the entire thing but there are still a million little details and projects to iron out. You never think it's as much as it is when you start out and even then it  starts to snowball as you get ideas and become interested in more things.

My wife and I hope to build a new house here on our land in a few years and I hope to have more space and be able to move this layout but even then I can't imagine adding more than an additional twenty to thirty square feet, if I even do that. I'm actually early retired and there still aren't enough hours in the day.

Size

An 8000 sq ft double deck is a lot of railroad.  There are live steam railroads that aren't that big.

I generally estimate that a linear ft of run takes about 4 sq ft of floor space.  For an 8000 sq ft room, that's 2000 ft or 30 actual miles of railroad PER LEVEL.  On a double deck layout, at 30 mph it will take 4 hours of continuous running, no switching, no train meets, no stopping, no work to get around the layout.  Are you and your operators comfortable with a 4 hour walk to run a train one way?

My suggestion would be to plan on just one level.  30" is uncomfortably low and 60" is above armpit level for most people.  I would also suggest a shorter run.  

Before you pull the trigger on designing a layout I would suggest that you visit or even better, operate on several larger layouts, just to get a feel if you like that type of operation.  Do you really want that big of an operation?  Do you really want that long of a run?  When you get into too long of a run the operation can feel more like a job than a hobby.

While I'm sure many people will suggest TOMA and modules and all that stuff, I'm going to take a different tack and suggest that you build it single level with conventional benchwork but design the layout to be built in phases of 30-40 ft per phase (which will end up being about your siding/station spacing).  For a layout that size set in Oklahoma, the vast majority of the layout will be just main line running through a soybean field, corn field or pasture.  You don't need that deep of benchwork.  Wiring will be mostly dropping feeders.  Once you figure out how to run a static grass applicator, it ought to take you less than an hour a foot to finish off the layout.

Have one staging yard on casters and then as you finish a section of the layout, roll the staging yard down to the end of the next section, fill in where the staging yard was and lay the main track to the staging yard.  You are back in business.

Personally I think that if you built a single level layout 2000 sq ft (500 linear feet of run 7-8 HO miles) you would have quite enough layout to keep you busy and run any type of operation you could want.

Dream house and dream layout

As you stated in your original post, you're designing your dream house and dream layout to build inside of it. Nothing wrong with that. I won't discount all the wise advice already given on this thread, but on the other hand I don't see anything wrong with designing the ultimate scale empire.

Just start putting down the ideas you've got so far, tell us about your 'givens and druthers' and post some initial designs here. I'm sure you'll get lots of comments, which you can take back to the drawing board for another iteration.

Assuming you're not going to start building the house anytime soon you're not in any hurry to finish the plan so enjoy the process --- if there's no rush there's no need to be paying somebody else to do what many consider to be an enjoyable aspect of the hobby.

But before you start buying large bundles of track, or filling drawers with locomotives, rolling stock and unbuilt kits, you'd be wise to re-read the earlier comments in this thread. Turning dreams into reality takes a lot of meticulous planning and budgeting, hard work, and cash.

On the other hand, maybe you're the next Elon Musk, in which case, feel free to ignore all of us.

One idea would be to devise a

One idea would be to devise a track plan (ish), see if it would fit on Free-mo sections, then just build the sections. The main thing I am thinking, giving 8000 sq ft you could set the layout up in different configurations. 
 

You could take parts of layouts, track plans, real railroads that you like,,and trash the rest.

just an idea

Wyatt

8000 sq. foot?

I was just thinking if I had that much room i'd probably get some hay bales and large fans and build an indoor Go-kart track :> )  ....DaveB

my cautionary post

There was a guy, he used to post here and on his own web site. He had a big house he'd custom built on an enormous lot in southern florida, definitely more than 3000 square foot home, probably 5000-6000 square feet. Not quite lifestyles of the rich and famous 10-20k square foot with a bowling alley, but a multi-million dollar home with all the normal high end ammenities.

And then he built a big detached building, a few thousand square feet, to serve as a multi-car garage, with another big room for a shop, and an enormous layout room, which was going to be a multi-level mushroom layout. 

He got that building built, and started his layout, got some of it done, but progress hit a wall. Reading between the lines, it seemed like he simply couldn't lay track well enough for it to be reliable. He got discouraged, and stopped construction. Then he got laid off from his job. The new one he found was across the country.

His web site hasn't been updated since before covid, and stopped posting here years ago. I don't know whether he kept his dream house and commuted across country to the job, or eventually quit that job, or eventually sold the dream house, or what. Anyway, the whole dream crashed and burned. 

That, I'm afraid is typical for big one-man dream projects. There are a couple really deep pocket guys out there who succeed in creating enormous layouts by hiring a lot of the work done, and building a club around their layout, where they get to be the big cheese in perpetuity. They are generally successful retired businessmen. 

So lots of generalizations, but at your age I think your dreams need a little time to season before you'll know whether they're persistent enough to stick with you over the long term.

You need to figure out what aspects of the hobby you enjoy, and what you want to do with the layout when it's built - or whether it's the building that's the fun. Some people enjoy building so much that they never finish a layout, they stop after the fun part for them. 

Some people just enjoy the dreaming. If that's you, no problem. Plan away. It's pretty hard to plan on a completely blank slate, once you know where walls, stairs, utility appliances and other obstructions will be then it becomes more interesting to plan around those things.

Lastly, I'd suggest doing a large scale. O at least, if not G. I certainly would if I had that kind of space (and money).

Many folks have designed

Many folks have designed layouts on here. As you can see already you will get lots of advice and comment from every one. I would suggest a simple approach to your design. First use your software and put in a diagram of your space. Next tell us about the location you wish to model and the era. With lots of space you will have lots of options available. When you get started you might find that you don’t need all of the available space to get what you want. If that happens you will be way ahead of the game. 
 

Some other things you might want to consider are things like train length and control systems. You might also want to look at the skills you have now and what ones you will need to develop. Also look at the time you have available to devote to this. Since you are looking at a dream layout you might want to plan in stages so you can begin enjoying it sooner rather than later.

Best of luck to you.

I am just gonna reply to

I am just gonna reply to everyone in one post so that its easier for all of us. It would be really cool if they could do a comment reply system that facebook uses.I will address certain things at the end of the post! Also, replies will be in the order as what they are posted.

TomO; 

First of all that is a chicken hotel. haha. Hopefully my wallet will get bigger this year and next, I'm a contractor so I make decent money and I plan to open more businesses here soon as well. When it comes to Lance and Rob, I was just trying to get some ideas and smaller areas designed like my steel mill area and yards. I did plan on doing it piece by piece, I was thinking about 15' feet at a time. I dont plan on using staging or helixes. I feel that there will be enough space for enough yards to store equipment, even other peoples train sets. My decks so far are 30 and 54. I will post more here soon as well. I'm doing some redesigning to my house I'm designing. 

Den;

I was really just wanting a designer to help me with the project as in a reference if I have a question and to design certain aspects of the layout that I can't just get my finger on. I think I am going to buy a couple books on layout building, especially wiring for DCC. I will post my wants in a seperate post from this large one. I will have to find that article about the million dollar model railroad. I will also post the plan here this evening as well. I can also provide the file if anyone else has Anyrail 6. 


Joe;

I have some experience not a lot but I am learning everyday and when I go to the club I am apart of in Saint Albans, West Virginia. I am really good about finding stuff out and figuring stuff out as well. I believe I can operate it. I also plan on making this a club layout as well. Having a large home, means that I can entertain a lot of guests as well. So its the perfect scenario. 


Michael;

First of all, I don't know how you do N scale. Stuff is wayyyy too small for me. I switched from O to HO this past March. I think I will do so much at one time then stop, work out the kinks and start working on the next so many feet. My wife is crafty and I think she'll enjoy being able to do scenery. I feel that as time goes, Ill have more time in the day. Our last and 6th child was born in July, so were done with diapers as time goes on. Plus my goal is to retire at 40 or 45. 


Dave;

I know its a lot, like I told a buddy of mine, if I build a 1/3 of it, Ill be happy. I also plan to have shortcuts between certain points so if I want to run just a certain area, I can. I feel that the operators, I already know that want to run on it, would enjoy it. I figured that 60" is only 5', and I am 6'4. I know 30 is decently low, but it allows for people to sit in yard areas and work on their train. Also. I have a mountain range that I want to do so I need the added space between the decks. I am a member of a local club here in West Virginia and working on joining a couple more. I would love to have a huge operation and long run. WIth longer runs, theres more chances of more industry as well. I plan to do so much at one time and I really like your idea of having a staging yard built on casters. Thats a great idea. I thought about using modules for the ease of wring and section work. Like maybe 8' will be one section, I feel that would help me out a lot when actually putting it together and trouble shooting. I will probably build until I get to a point of "okay thats good. I'm good here" I rather design bigger and have an idea and I go smaller I can add in certain aspects of the design. 

Chris;

I'm a big dreamer and I want to have the coolest or biggest layout, Kinda want a World Record, I know I got some work to do cause of our friends in Germany. I will post all of my ideas in a separate reply on this comment thread. I am hopeful that I can get my home built by winter. Hopefully, doing a lot of the work myself. Right now. I am at 20 engines, 130 freight cars, two Schnabel cars, and I think I have 15 kits. I have a club that I go to so that all of my equipment does get ran at some point on a rotation. I have considered building my switches and track while I have down time. I think Ill save more money by doing some things myself like track work for example. FastTracks has a great selection of track building systems. I would love to be the next Elon Musk. Thats my goal. I'm all about hard work and grit. Its how I was raised. 

Wyatt;

I actually like that idea. I know I want to somehow include Thurmond, WV. I am 5 miles from there. It's a spot I normally go to railfan. 


DaveB; 

I love the sound of a go cart track, but Ill do that outside. haha. 

EW;


I actually already travel for work as it is. And given personal circumstances, i dont see us moving out of this area. Which is fine with me. If something were to happen and we would have to move, I will umbolt my layout and take it with me. Part of the reason why I plan on doing the frame work in sections so that its easily dissembled if something were to come up. I really do want to build a club around my layout, something I have always wanted to do. I honestly enjoy everythign that comes with model railroading. Its all fun for me. I've been apart of this crazy fun group since I was 5 years old. My grandpa, who the CSX division on my layout is named after, spent 50 years working for C&O on the Huntington Division and retired as a CSX employee in the mid 90s. I'm not going back to a larger scale, HO is the perfect size. I love O but thatll be my christmas tree train sets. 

Rob in Texas; 

I agree with what you have said. I am going to upload the photo of my layout plan right now, and as well as just the empty room as well. Its in a basement. I will post my vision here in a little bit as well. 

Thank you guys so far for all the great ideas and advice! I really appreciate it. I know if I would've posted on facebook, I wouldve gotten smart ass comments. Thank you guys for being so helpful and nice!

No more N-scale for me

Joshua, I don't do N scale anymore even though there will always be a special place in my heart for it. I managed for years but what finally got me was my nerves. I just don't have the patience anymore. Compared to assembling an N scale MT coupler, a Kadee HO #5 is a piece of cake! The smallest detail is still the smallest detail though. Detail stuff that was molded on to N-scale rolling stock has to be separately applied on HO stuff.

If the wife and I ever get to build our dream house here, I might do the opposite from you and move from HO up to a larger scale, probably On30 but I have a lot of money invested in HO now so I don't know how likely that would be.

I invite you to check out my blog sometimes and see my continuing  misadventures with my layout of the last eight, going on nine years. Good luck on your plans. All of us here love pics, plans and info so let it rip and we will be as much help as we can. I'm mostly a scenery guy but we have people here who are well versed in all facets of the hobby and they are very helpful.

one guy - huge layout

It's on another forum, but this is IMHO one of the best "one guy - huge layout" stories:

https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=26087.0

It would be great to see your thread become just as interesting.

layout

 Here is my current plan, it may change. Because I'm doing a 2.0 to my home design. Its actually bigger but I dont know about it yet. Im still thinking about it. But anyways. I sent this to a friend of mine earlier. 

"Well. In my head of mine. My head is killing me so I may forget some details. But obviously I want my csx and ns mainlines. But I started thinking about my class 2 being the Oklahoma Northern and my two class 3s yet to be named, I wanna add like a BNSF division cause that’s my favorite western railroad. Plus UP/BNSF share a lot of trackage so I can run some UP stuff. Like I wanna have it all connected to so yanno it looks like a real railroad not a model. Then all the industries I want. Then like I want mountains going into the plains and back into the mountains. And I thought about making it a “point to point” with a big port on both sides. Like one would be BNSF the other would be csx or ns. Or a mixture of the two eastern lines.I probably forgot stuff.Like I have a vision. I just don’t know how to put it on paper well anyrail 6."

Oklahoma Northern is a freelance railroad that I bought off of someone from Missouri. I want to incorporate that as well. I want to do mainly modern, I plan to have a steam as well. Like my logging area, will run shays. Shays are my favorite steamers. Since I am going for that proto feel in a freelance world, I'm gonna have Freights mixed and units, passenger traffic and maybe even MOW sets. I know I want mountains and plains and coast lines. When I say I want almost every industry I mean every industry. And I want like the "the flow" from say trees to paper and lumber, coal and iron ore to steel and steel to manufacture goods, etc etc. I have also toyed with the idea of using live loads as well. Just to make it more fun. I really want a really cool layout, with switching, ops, and mainline running. I also want branch line as well. I really want to include the saluda grade or something similar to it. I just have a lot of ideas. 

 

Some random thoughts...

- too many nooks and crannies in the above layout;

- make aisles minimum 5 ft or 6ft for comfort and accessiblity (think about growing old and your current older operators);

- single deck everywhere, 50-55" height, modulating the depth 24-30" the most, otherwise your layout will become a helix wonderland - I've actually seen one in real life ( http://waterlooregionmodelrailwayclub.ca/)

- there are no provisions for amenities: I would place at least 2 bathrooms; 4+ emergency exits; large lounge area in the middle with a full kitchen, 1-2 refridgerators etc, plenty of space to sit down; large workshop area for building the layout also adjacent to one of the external walls with a garage door size entryway for bringing in the materials...the workshop should also have spray booth(s) venting out, benches, etc;

- PA system for announcements;

- you might need to hire P/T staff - facilities management e.g. janitorial and maintenance;

- based on what I've read about other "large" layouts e.g. a 2,400 sq.ft size needing 16-18 operators, you will need 2 platoons of people to fully operate a 8,000 sq.ft. layout - do you have that many people ready to show up for an op session? also who will run the logistics (need at least a squad of helpers with radios, etc.);

- if you want all those railroads, an idea is to put a huge marshalling yard in the middle of the space, into which all of the railroads will interchange goods with one another - you have enough space (linear length) to have both producers and consumers online, so no need for staging yards (which would probably complicate things a lot more, needing a squad of hostlers to run them);

- Byron Henderson ( https://www.layoutvision.com/) is another layout designer who specializes in operations and could take a jab at your design; another one is Peter Lloyd Lee ( https://superiormodelrailroads.com/) who, IIRC, was a general contractor before and has a pretty good idea about what and how something can be built in practice;

HTH.