Very interesting but...

A 22 inch radius for a helix is awfully tight. You have to figure the friction of the train going around curves and compensate your grade percentage accordingly. Did you consider that? I think that's just way too tight a curve.

It seems he did

and the end shows it working just fine, over and over again.

Cool...

That is a cool design, and it turned out great. I would fall into it and crush it completely flat within about twenty-four hours of completion. 

A man's gotta know his limitations. 

Randy

Another comedian.  We all

Another comedian.  We all know what a helix is about.  Get to the point.

I actually made 3 minutes in!   That's about as far as I'm able to go with most of these videos.

Your ideas may vary.

Mike.

More radiuses would be nice

I have always thought the prefab curved track available in larger radiuses would be nice. I think they could do longer sections as well.

I know people have used standard foam board with the clay paper veneers instead of gator board for modules wonder if that could be used for a helix as well.

I admit to not watching it

I admit to not watching it all because that style of presentation isn't my thing but I did fast forward to the end and yes there was a decent length train running but it had an MU lash up at the front. Fact remains that 22 inch radius is tight for a helix. It just is and beginners and new folks might get the wrong idea. Ask Joe about too tight a radius helix. Everyone has to make compromises though and maybe that's a compromise you could live with. I have a 4% hidden switchback grade on my pike. I call it the "necessary grade".

"Fact remains that 22 inch

  Yes, 22 inch falls between conventional(24 inch) and sharp(18 inch) on Armstrongs's curve radius  classification. The helix grade will make it appear even sharper to engines trying to pull long trains around it so I'd make sure I could reliably(100% of the time) run any planned trains up it. The "necessary grade" fits in well with the prototype naming places thread going on now....DaveB

There's a reason for 22" radius

Hi all,

Perhaps most people missed it - this future layout is planned for exhibition use - ie must be easily transportable. Both size and weight count. 

Most wagons/vans can't take stuff much wider than 4' through the back or side doors - 22" radius on track centre plus 2" clearance doubled = 48" = maximum size of stuff that can be easily transported in a vehicle without going to a dedicated trailer. 

Yes it's not "ideal", but the video shows it works. In terms of radius on helices, bigger is always better because it flattens the grade for the same rise each revolution of the spiral.

But when you are designing to fit constraints, you make your design choices and run with it.

Of interest in the middle of the video is the load-testing of the gatorboard supports and spans. That should clarify the suitability of that gatorboard for model railroad construction use.

Well, "the guy" and "he" is

Well, "the guy" and "he" is me! I'm right here. If you need my credentials feel free to Google Joey Ricard + model railroad to narrow it down.

We all have opinions and that's what forums are for. Good, bad or otherwise, it's always interesting and never a dull minute here for sure.

If you have a problem making a tight raduis helix work, I'd be glad to help you. I've built several with this radius helix and have never ever had stringline problems....I guess that's what you mean by "it's too tight. Otherwise I can't I imagine what you'd be talking about other than asethetics, but it's not something  that would be visible I. 

Any which way, it's nothing to debate, it works.

Joey Ricard

The point was that friction

The point was that friction from tight curves effectively reduces the pulling power of a locomotive and therefore makes a difference in how many cars can be pulled vs. if the grade is on a tangent. Most people will come up with a compensated grade percentage based on the radius of the curve. The principle is as old as model railroading itself. I believe both John Armstrong and John Allen had rules of thumb about grades on curves and compensated grade percentages.

If it works for you, that's all that matters. As I said, everyone has to make compromises in this hobby. Very rarely can we do anything that is exactly what we want because of space, time, money, whatever. Generally speaking though, within practical limits, the larger the radius of a helix the better.

P.S. I mistakenly thought that the video was done by someone else and not you Joey. Or that the poster was different or whatever. I don't know how I got that impression but I did and obviously was wrong. That's why I said "he". I certainly do apologize and no offense was intended. I tried to edit my comments.

Cutting design and material wastage

@Joey

Nice video, entertaining as your videos always are, and informative.

A question:  At approximately the 9:40 mark, you mentioned cutting out the 1/2 inch base by hand - what tool did you use to make the (circular, not that it matters) cut?

I've used Gatorboard for years for a variety of applications, including bases for structures, and for roadbed (straight).  Never thought about it in the fashion that you have introduced.

Thanks!

Al Carter

Cost of 3/16 Gatorboard vs 3/16 Plywood

Joey,

How much of a price difference is there between a 4x8 sheet of 3/16 Gatorboard vs plywood? I'm seeing packs of 15 go for around $1,000 which brings a sheet to around $70, excluding oversize shipping. Not to mention the inability to get just 1 or 2 sheets of the stuff for that price. I'm assuming as a print shop owner you get better pricing due to volumes used versus us incidental buyers. Any good sources you can point to besides me driving up north 30 miles to your shop?

Info

Prof Klyzlr - quick answer is yes, I considered the alternative shapes and used them on previous projects that were plywood. Most likely, the traps would work out more efficiently if I were cutting from the parent sheet by hand. With the recent Gatorboard projects  that I cut on the laser, I had to cut the parent sheet into pieces that I could fit on the laser. In this case, the difference with the arc allowed me to add in the clamps on the same cut job. 

Hi Al Carter, those 1/2" bases were cut with a simple box cutter. I just drew a circle from a center point.

Hi Yaron, depends on what plywood you are are using of course, but good plywood can be expensive. The real difference for me comes in when work/time is considered. Setting up saw horses or a table, getting the tools out, having someone help you.... and of course....the mess! If you are looking,  I don't know if he lists them on the website, but you can certainly call my supplier which is Walker Supply in Rockville, MD. Walkersupply.com -  I take my trailer down every few months.  If you do, ask for Kent Walker and tell him I sent you. He'd probably give you a deal. if not,  I think Uline has them in (If I remember correctly) cartons of 3? 

Joey

very nice!!!

very nice!!!

World's Lightest Helix?

LOL, that reminds me of "worlds lightest steam roller" , and wondering who really wants a light one? ...DaveB

I once built a small N scale

I once built a small N scale version of the original Gorre and Daphetid plan from dollar store foamcore. I think one would have to go with better quality stuff but it occurs to me that, if properly engineered and supported, one could do a small, low turn count helix with foamcore. Just throwing it out there. Maybe more trouble than it's worth.

WOW

Joey nice design and build and video.  Very cool.  Bet you’d sell some helix kits if offered on your web store  

The helix is my greatest model railroad fear. Even more than ballasting turnouts

Don’t let the haters get you down and hopefully they don’t dissuade you from sharing future projects here.  

jeff

Star Gate SG-1 :-p

I did a quick scan of the video and my first thought was, how do you dial in a planet (see SG-1)!!!  It looks like you got yourself a star gate there.  ​ 

Regarding reliable operation on a 22 inch radius, it appears that it depends on 4-axle geeps and 50' or shorter freight cars.  Well and good.

But what if you want to run 89' flat cars and 85'  auto racks and passenger cars and six axle tunnel motors?  What radius could I reliably run trains with these rolling stock in them?

Who really wants one

are who Joey said, people who are lugging it to shows. It needs to be portable.

Who really wants one

Chuck, exactly and totally agree: people who have a need for lugging a helix to shows.

Like it was stated before, the current size would fit in a minivan or SUV. Make it any bigger and you'd have to deal with breaking it up in multiple pieces for transportation. If you've ever been part of a modular group, you'll know that getting the rails connected / lined up from one module to the other module at a venue, is a real pain in the rear and takes time. Now try and deal with that on a broken up helix structure (2, 4 or more parts) to allow for a larger radius. The amount of module rail crossings grows tremendously and the work to get it to operate flawlessly goes up equally with the ability of things going wrong during operation going up equally. Engineering of such larger modular broken up helix would require some good structural engineering principles and workmanship to build. So yes, 22 inches radius is awfully small, but within the parameters given/needed it's likely the best option. Then having the option to use Gatorboard to make the entire helix base weigh just under 4 pounds is just another big plus. Would I build a 22 inch radius helix at my house? Heck no. But if I needed one (or two) in a modular setting? It would for sure be an option.

Radius is not constrained to 22” with this construction method

Most replies here are fixated on the 22”radius. For those that missed it or didn’t even watch the whole video, Joey also touted the ease of construction compared to plywood. Not just the weight and portability.  Skilled woodworkers likely prefer plywood but for others this would seem to be a good viable alternative for a permanent or fixed install helix build, which could be a larger radius.

Jeff

@jimfitch

For your question, I would refer you back to an article published way back when in MRH that concerns car length and radius. (Sorry I don't remember how to do links here.) It's a good question but I think a separate but related one from the question of curve radii on a grade.

 I did not mean to imply a 22 inch curve radius is "wrong" for a helix. Nothing is "wrong" if it works for you. It's just that it will affect pulling power and it's a factor that needs to be taken into account. I would not want a beginner or less experienced model rail thinking they could pull a fifty car train up the thing. (exaggeration in car number for emphasis) That's all. The irony here is that I'm not even a fan of double deck layouts and/or helices unless we are talking about mushroom designs.

The relation of Car length

The relation of Car length and radius was looked at in the very first issue of MRH magazine.

John Allen calculated the curve drag as additional grade as G (curve) = 32/R

For 22'' radius this is 1.5% additionally to the grade of a helix.
Regards, Volker