Other factors

Era: How do crew members communicate?  Radios were not that common before 1965-1970, even later on some of the poor roads.  Before radios you used hand and lantern signals.  Obviously the other end has to be able to see them.  Multiple crew members strung out along a cut can pass signals, which helps on curves too.  If you do have radios, line-of-sight is not as critical.  Range is greater too.

Braking:  Are you working the cut with or without air?  Again, era matters.  Steam locos had lousy engine brakes, so they typically switched with air if more than a few cars were involved.  Diesels have better engine (independent) brakes, and there's usually more of them, so longer cuts can be handled without air.  Modern AC traction motors allow stopping a train without using air at all, in fact, although AC units are not usually used as switchers.

The large inbound cuts in hump yards are moved without air, and the smaller cuts are usually pulled out of the bowl and set over to the departure tracks before the air is laced back up.  (Railroading for reconnecting the air hoses.)  Some hump yards have retarders in the arrival yards to help stop train-length cuts when they're being humped, but flat yards usually don't have those.

Flatland or on grades?  Easier to handle big cuts out on the flats.  Things can get away from you in a hurry if you're not careful on hills.

All things to consider.

Scott Chatfield 

Modern Era...

BIG cuts are handled when yard switching in the modern era. I've handled cuts right up to 75-100 cars flat switching some yards using two, sometimes 3-4, SD's for power.

I've routinely switched industries (like sand plants/etc) with cuts of 40-50 cars.

No biggie. It's all in knowing what you're doing.

Andre

length of cuts when switching?

I think it would depend on your layout era and location. Modern era trains tend toward longer trains with blocks of similar cars so probably would be switched as longer cuts. In the old days there were more loose cars so switching as more kick and cut single cars or small cuts of similar cars. Local conditions can have a big influence too, the SP Santa Cruz yard tracks could probably hold 30 cars or more but they usually switched with about 10 cars or less to keep from blocking the city street that crossed about 500 feet from the yard throat. From a modelers perspective I'd design the layout then draw up the operating details and rules to match..Of course if one is modeling a real location it's a lot easier to figure out, just compress the prototype operations to fit the compressed prototype track layout.....DaveB

Era

Thanks for the comments on prototype practice guys.  That's quite helpful.

Although I wasn't trying to make this thread specific to my layout, to narrow things down a bit, the era I'm modeling is 1966, with 1st and 2nd generation diesels.

My main question however was if anyone actually DOES limit the length of cut for the crews operating on their layout?  Or do you just leave it up to the crew to do what it likes?  If you do limit the length, does that seem to enhance the ops in a way that the crew likes, or not?

Oops...

Was so caught up in my crowing about cut lengths, I failed to share some experiences concerning lengths/etc.

Basccially, in the railroading I was involved in spread over three states, there was never much concern for blocking traffic. Feeble attempts were sometimes made to comply with the "10 minute" rule, but not very often, and then only when convenient to the switching.

There were times that I would have busy byways blocked for way too long. One place I used to get loaned-out to frequently, I would be so long and cover enough streets that I would have a major town shut down when we'd start doubling the cuts together into a train. THAT place almost caused me to get a citation for obstructing, but that's another story left told another time.

SO, my experiences indicate there was not a lot of concern for blocking arteries, as long as the obstruction time was within what the Conductor/switch crew felt was "within reason". That would vary.

As DaveB mentioned, maybe there were places that DID observe "cut length limitations", but I never operated in a location that was so minded. The ground crew did what it had to do to get the job done as quickly as they could with the least amount of walking.

Andre

I haven't been subject to cut length limits during ops

Fascinating information, but I see that Paul hasn't quite had his question addressed yet so I'll offer what I can. I've only operated on maybe a few dozen layouts over the years, but I can't recall a single instance of a layout owner setting a limit on length of cuts. 

So it seems unusual to me. There are so many other "natural" factors that determine where you might want to make a cut that I tend to think it would be hard to remember a limit in cases where you might have to apply it. 

I have a large double-ended yard with a substantial tail track at one end (whose length is not quite as long as the longest ladder track) so that limit is established. At the other end of the yard, however, the tail track is the main and operators need to get permission to pull cuts onto that, so that could be a situation where I might want to set a limit based on some sort of risk reduction rationale, but I think it would be a bit of a nuisance to try to enforce. It would add a small wrinkle of complexity to an already sufficiently challenging situation, at least for my operators. 

Jeff Allen

Unlimited

None of the layouts I’ve operated on had any limits to how many cars the switch crew could handle while classifying cars in a yard setting, except for the length of the drill track. (Each layout modeled the 1978-1984 time period). When switching industries on the rest of the layout, it was unusual to have to switch cars at the very back of the train. Usually you could leave the train on the main or siding and take the cars needed for set outs and pick ups. 
 

I don’t plan to restrict the size of cuts on my layout, either. However, the classification drill track is designed for one engine and 24 - 50’ cars. I model around 1970-74, so radios are in use.

I will say, I was employed on a shortline railroad several years ago. I can tell you that any kind of coupling, uncoupling or switching of cars at the rear of a long train can potentially be more dangerous than working 10 or 20 back from the head end. Everything is delayed: stopping, starting, brake applications, brake releases, you name it. 

Solo Ops

To be honest, I've never operated at a layout where the owner restricted the length of the cut either.  

Some of the impetus for this question probably came from running solo ops on my former layout.  I had one rather large mine where you pulled loaded hoppers of coal out of the mine, then had to push the string up a grade to the rest of the train.

When I ran my myself, I always pulled the outbound mine tracks separately, reasoning that the weight of the loaded hoppers would have made it difficult to work a longer string on the grade.  For me, this improved the fun of switching that area.

I noticed however that when others came over for an op session, the operators always pulled both outbound mine tracks at the same time, and pushed the whole string of 18 loaded hoppers up the grade to couple to the rest of the train. 

I mentioned that once to an operator who was fairly knowledgeable about prototype practice and his reply was, "Yeah, you're probably right."  But continued to switch the mine like he wanted to anyway!  I guess that just goes to show, even when you try to introduce a more prototypical practice, operators are going to do what they feel like doing, regardless of the rules or regulations you try to impose!

But hey, ops are supposed to be fun, right?  So if they are enjoying themselves, what the heck!  

Head Room

I have worked a few prototype locations with limited head room. The situations I had, were usually that track lead up to a signal or other Control Point that we would avoid fouling, for the most part. I have had a few spots the switching was done on a dead end track in an industry with very limited head room. 
 

One was in OKC and we used our mainline to switch on one end of the yard, it then connected to the BNSF mainline. We could get a signal for a big double over, but usually just worked in smaller chunks. 

Ihad a similar situation in Wichita in the BNSF yard, you could work one end of the yard up to a point, but then had to call for a signal. The DS would put it in ‘fleet’ and we could make as many moves back and forth until we were ready to depart. 

When working in a larger yard in Eugene you had unlimited room to use and the switch jobs would work huge cuts of cars sometimes. With a larger yard there are usually multiple leads so a train can arrive or depart while the switch crew still switches. 

In Kansas we had a customer that when switching part of the plant and sorting cars we only had room for 12 cars plus the power. You had to really plan ahead and get things blocked right, otherwise you had to make a bunch of extra moves. 

Adding a limited head room will make the switch crews have to think a bit more about their moves. Or if they do have to get a signal, to get on the main, they may have to wait awhile for traffic to clear. 

Head Room

Greg,

Thanks for sharing your real life experience. 

Based on your comments, it seems like the best way to make crews switch smaller cuts, is not to post a regulation, but to limit the head room available.  That's a physical limitation that can't be worked around, unless someone resorts to the 0-5-0 switcher.

There are place on the the track plan of my new layout where I limited the headroom.  Only slightly however.  I wanted to make the switching a little more challenging, but not so much that it became an annoying nuisance.  I realize that's a fine line to tread, but if done successfully, it can really enhance the fun of working a layout. 

Since you never get to

Since you never get to operate the Proctor Switch, you probably don’t know that I suggest a max of 12 cars when pulling from at A yard and shoving to the Class tracks. I know the Missabe shoved short cuts because of what you said: visibility to the brakeman. But on the selfish side, we have less derailments that way!!! Maybe if George ever gave up that job!

Cut length

I do not limit the cut length on my model switching leads, other than the length of the pull back track and the tracks themselves.

On the prototype, it depended.  Flat switching, the crews tend to use cuts of about 25-35 cars because that's what they could start and stop quickly with 2 GP38's.  On the other hand a hump yard occasionally would double two trains together and shove the hump with 200+ cars.

Forget

Milt,

You forget, the last op session George wasn't there, so I did get to switch Proctor.  Absolutely loved it.  I forgot about your limit on the cut length though for this discussion.  Thanks for the reminder!

… but I do hate to require

… but I do hate to require too many rules. I have discovered our operators sometimes find better ways to do things than what I thought. 

"Put it in fleet"

Mountaingoatgreg  Can you provide more detail about your comment "The DS would put it in "fleet" and...".  I am assuming that it meant that the dispatcher set the signal to some aspect that allow you to make your moves. My question is what are the details of how this happens. What was the signal aspects? How did it affect other intermediate signal?  What authority did it give to the train crew?

I ask because we are designing a dispatcher controlled signaling system and have a good handle on the straight forward functions. What we are scratching our heads on is how to signal turning a passing siding over to ground control so a train crew can run around a train and work a siding.

Art

Limited Lead

My layout uses a short lead (14 cars) to force the majority of the switching away from the on-layout staging track, and back into the industries. There are 22 car spots between 2 industries, so when you bring your spotters into the mix, it’s easy to have 25-30 car cuts. The hitch is there are very few options to sort the cars, so you have to really pay attention to what you are doing and switch efficiently.

My real world experience also is based on motive power, head room and crew experience. The less power, the smaller the cuts (unless you want to beat your head all day trying to start and stop); head room can be a short lead, a signal, a draw bridge, a foreign railroad limit or even a misaligned switch; experienced crews recognize the limitations, as well as efficiencies and make adjustments to minimize moves and compensate for weight and power, inexperienced crews tend to handle cuts that are way too long and too heavy for the situation.

I have read about the C&O

I have read about the C&O using 0-10-0 switchers till the arrival of more powerful 0-8-0s. These were used in the coal mining areas and I suspect they were moving long cuts of cars with them. I do not believe they would have wanted such big power for short strings of cars. I would think the situation depends on lots of things including the crew and how long they worked the same job.

Different types of switching

There are different types of switching.

If you are classifying cars using flat switching then the most important thing is the ability to accelerate and stop quickly.  If you are "trimming" (pulling cars out of the bowl) or working a hump yard or a yard where they are handling blocks of cars, then power is the the most important thing.

Accordingly, the cut length depends on what you are doing.  If you are flat switching then a shorter cut is better, if you are humping, trimming or handling blocks then longer cuts may be better.

Door spots

A conductor on one of the regionals around here told me that he liked to keep the cuts as short as possible when spotting warehouse tracks, because it made it easier to get the cars lined up properly with the doors.

Left Out

This discussion on prototype practice is really revealing.  It shows just how much gets left out of the operational aspects on our layouts.  Physics in the real world forces crews to do things differently than we have to/can do with our models.  

Signal in fleet

Signals in fleet means the dispatcher has authorized the train by the control point by giving the signal repeatedly and indefinitely until the crew notifies the dispatcher they are done with the work.

Alternatively, the dispatcher may authorize the crew to take the dual control switch in hand, especially if it will be used for switching. Both of these scenarios occur at the refinery in Wynnewood, Oklahoma depending on the work being done. The refinery lead switch is on the main only about a car length from the NBCS at North Wynnewood. 

Put it in Fleet

Art,

Different Greg answering, but hopefully I can explain fleet (sometimes called stacking). Is a term used to describe the dispatcher setting a certain signal to illuminate multiple times, so you can multiple successive moves. So when a train drives past a signal then backs up behind it, the train will receive another proceed indication without having to contact the dispatcher. Adjacent blocks of the signal system respond the same as when any other train movement is authorized or occupies a particular block. The signal indication you receive in fleet is dependent on the occupancy or authority of the succeeding block.

Switching a siding -

1. Signal for the crew to enter the siding
2. Cut off their cars
3. Signal out of the other end of the siding
4. Signal in the opposite direction up the main
5. Entry back into the siding can either be:
   • some tracks are equipped to allow a restricting signal back into an occupied track.
   • via verbal authority from the dispatcher (“train xxx has authority to pass stop signal yyy from main track to siding”)
   • dispatcher authorizes the the crew to take the switch in hand. Taking the switch in hand essentially suspends the signal system so all adjacent blocks register as occupied and the crew has access to all adjacent blocks without talking to the dispatcher.
6. Switching the siding. If the crew needs to use a signal to accomplish their switch moves they ask the dispatcher for a signal, multiple signals (fleet) or to take the switch in hand.