Wifi?

Wifi?

Make sure you look into NZ radio communications rules

Lots of people love NCE, but as late as last year, I was told it was illegal at that time to sell it here in Canada. I wanted to buy one but stayed with Digitrax when the dealer told me they weren’t allowed to sell NCE radio throttles. 

Given that Canada and NZ are both Commonwealth and share a lot of common Regulations there may be similar challenges there. 

I have had really good luck with my Digitrax wireless throttles for the little that I’ve used them.  They seem to use a lot of battery juice though, so in a club, I’d be tempted to get rechargeable battery packs.

None of my favourite dealers ever seem to have everything in stock at once, so local support may be a consideration as well.  

DCC Wireless Controllers

Thanks Mike.

We did due diligence before we got LENZ on wireless units available several decades ago, and yes, some were of the wrong band and were illegal in New Zealand.

We went for LENZ because a group member became the New Zealand agent, so we adopted that system until now.

Some layouts at our show were running off iPads or iPhones, so that may be the way to go for controllers.

Just have to sort an operating system and make a decision.

Ta

dcc wireless throttles

Hi crashbuck

most dcc manufacturers make wireless controllers for their system. I understand that that Lenz may not have, but CVP Products   http://www.cvpusa.com/   do make wireless throttle for the Lenz system but do not know what frequency they use so do not know if they are legal here in New Zealand. I see no reason to change from Lenz if you already have the system and are happy with it, but you spoke of others using their iphones or ipads to control engines; was that on your club layout or on another layout?

If it was on your layout then you would ready to go with TCS wi Throttle; it is designed to work with any dcc system that has or can be connected to wifi.  https://tcsdcc.com/ 

There are importers for both Digitrax and NCE in NZ and they include wireless options. I bought a SPROG 2 for testing and playing with when I first got a dcc engine then bought direct a Digikeijs DR5000 from Holland.  https://www.digikeijs.com/en/

If I was starting out again I would consider either NCE or the new TCS system due to be released this year. With the way the market is technologywise, I would make sure that it can connect to wifi.

Michael Walsh

MikeHughes

hi Mike.

I think your dealer must  be digitrax agent only and that is why you were told what you were. I have just looked at a Canadian retailers site and they list NCE wireless products. I know we are both Commonwealth Nations and have a lot in common but there are many things that we don't; take your wall voltage as an example: Canada is the same as the States. I am pretty sure Canadian legal frequencies are the same as the USA. But then again I have been known to be wrong.

Michael Walsh

ANZ exhibition wireless

Dear Crash,

Interesting application, and one close to my own heart. As a regular exhibitor in Eastern Australia, we have many of the same domestic/prosumer RF laws, exhibition situations, and combinations of common wireless control systems. From a few decades of experience:

- You have no control over how many other layouts may be running (in)compatible wireless rigs at the show,
how close those layout may be from your layout,
how the layouts and wireless-basestations are placed
and how-many WiFi Access Point" active devices may walk in with the passing General Public crowd.

Given that Exhibiton work is all about "One-time, First-time, Every time" deterministic reliability,
that's a lot of uncontrollable variables which you need to be able to avoid/mitigate/overcome in order to maintain the "fun" of exhibiting... (both for you and your operators who get to "play trains", and for the punters who pay-to-view trains-moving...)

- Don't eliminate "wired throttle buss" entirely. It is your "everything's on fire" belt-and-braces backup.
If you must "get the latest and greatest", look to LCC for a new-tech cross-compatible "Throttle Buss backup".

- Digitrax wireless has litte market penetration here on East Coast Oz, so cannot comment about it's reliability in "exhibition" conditions. However, much has been written online, apply appropriate qty HO scale hopper-loads of salt to taste...

- NCE RF wireless (RB02 basestations + latest firmware) are quite common and relatively reliable,
as long as the layouts are kept a reasonable distance apart within the hall/venue. For reasons that have never been satisfactorily explained to me, the "Layout ID" feature of the NCE RF system seems to be vapourware here in Oz...
(or, maybe more appropriately, no-one uses it, and RB02's are never changed-from-default, because ?????)

The result, despite the mooted presence of this "seemingly made to solve this exact problem" feature,
is that Throttle<> Layout "breakover"/cross-connection,
(and related "Layout A Throttle --> Layout B Loco/consist" control seizure)

and "mass RF swamping" events are disturbingly commmon at larger exhibitions. The call
"RF is down, all change to plug-in mode" rings out each morning almost like clockwork... :-(
("...09:00 on day 2 of a 3 day show, let's give the wireless another go.... Oh dear, still bad...
...but it worked bulletproof last weekend during pre-show testing in the shed at home...?!?!?")

- WiFi-based solutions, such as COTS network access-points feeding JMRI rigs,
are starting to appear in significant numbers "in the wild".

While WiFi has better "protocol immunity" than, say, proprietary NCE RF,
it tends to suffer from sheer "number of devices radiating RF" swamping,
(imagine trying to have a direct discrete conversation with another given person,
in a room simultaneously packed with 1000s of other random people screaming...)

"Broadcast ID/Access-Point request" commands.
(where every device which walks thru the door asks "who's here and available?"
and every Access Point device is obliged per WiFi spec to stop whatever they are doing and answer,
rinse and repeat many times per second,
multipled by as many "Broadcast SSID enabled" devices as are within WiFi range...)

and slightly-more-challenging to diagnose "channel congestion/crossover"
(by default, every Access Point uses "WiFi Channel 1",
thus causing mass congestion at that RF frequency,
and causing "shadowing" of the next few "channels" of WiFi Frequencies).

Assuming you can get past the above, the choices of "RTR WiFi Throttles"
(other than "smart-phone app" throttles, not everyone likes or wants to use a touchscreen,
tactile knobs and switches absolutely have a place in this new world)

is limited (but growing, slowly), which may impact the preferences and usability for some modellers.
(Suggest looking at the TCS "UWT" series throttles,
https://tcsdcc.com/throttle
/> https://tcsdcc.com/mini-throttle

and Dr Geoff Bunza's "Build a WiFi Throttle" articles/threads
https://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/magazine/running-extra/2019-04/wifi-throttle
/> https://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/35652)

- Alternatively, there are a few "turnkey" units becoming available on-market which effectively act as
"WiFi Access Point + JMRI WiiThrottle Server + DCC System Interface" in one single box.
(In no particular order of preference)

Digitrax "LNWI", 
https://www.digitrax.com/products/wireless/lnwi/

WiFiTrax "WFD-30" (NCE compatible)
http://wifitrax.com/products/product-WFD-30-detail.html

MRC Prodigy WiFi
https://www.modelrectifier.com/product-p/0001530.htm

These kinds of units may have limitations in terms of:
- how many simultaneous throttles can be connected
- the quality and strength of the WiFi Antenna built-in
(which, unlike a COTS network Access Point, is unlikely to be "extendable" with other COTS Access-points)
- WiFi coverage range (esp against "High RF environments", see above)

but for smaller layouts of the appropriate Maunf/Make/Brand, 
and in situations where "Plug n Play" is higher priority than "bulletproof reliability",
they may well have a place...

I have to ask

what exactly do you mean by "Districts"?

Are you referring to DCC Power districts 
(common usage of the term "district" RE DCC, but related to track-buss and boosters/wiring,
not the "throttle buss")

or somehow distributing Wireless Access Points 
(either WiFi, or NCE RB02s, or ???)

around the layout?

Looking forward to seeing how your delierations develop...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

@Michael Walsh

No, it was Trains n Such in Calgary and they had both NCE and Digitrax in stock.  I was looking for something for my little B&H and I’d heard good things about NCE and I wanted to buy it right then and there to avoid PST as I was on my way through Calgary to Vancouver.

He actually recommended NCE, “ unless you want wireless because we can’t sell them due to radio interference”. It was late Nov, 2020 if I recall right, just before I started my blog.  I got the impression they had been selling them, but somehow had been told not to.  I asked him how long it would be and he said he really had no idea as NCE had to resolve some things with the Gov and that could take a long time. Things may have changed since then.
 

I ended up getting a Z52 Zephyr advanced which is more than enough for the B&H and was about $100 more than the NCE beginner set.  I bring my DT602 with me to Van but haven’t bought a UR93 for it yet, so still running it tethered. I’m going to eventually get one of the new UT series radio throttles as the tether wire is a bit of a pain in the limited space I have. 
 

At home here I am set up for wireless but hardly need it yet to go back and forth on 8’ of styrofoam. Lol.  Soon!

@Prof Klyzlr

Great post.   Tons of great info.  Much to consider there. 

JMRI and WIFI

I am not overly familiar with Lenz, but if it can be interfaced with JMRI, then a simple solution would be to get a Raspberry Pi, set it up with JMRI running as a WiFI access point, and then you can use phones, tablets, Geoff Bunza’s throttle, TCS throttles, or ESU throttles (maybe others?) Nothing really wrong with your Lenz system, a new system isn’t going to do much more than the old Lenz since nothing has really changed with the basic DCC signal.

  Some layouts at our show

I wouldn't recommend ipads or phones as they are touchy when running trains so you need to look at them a lot. A knob throttle doesn't have that problem and can be mostly run by feel. I would talk to the local guys though and see what DCC system is favored over there. What we use over here is likely not the best thing for over there.  A 29.5 foot by 11.5 foot layout sounds like it could be set up with two power districts, command station at one end (or side) and a booster on the other end/side. If you have someone with a PC in your group you might look at Digikeijs command and boosters as they have wifi built in and use loco net so lots of stuff will work with them. Roco multimaus is a nice basic wireless throttle, but I don't know if they are available in NZ. That's where the local knowledge comes in.....DaveB

. . .

From the NCE documents for wireless  (RBO2 and RPT01)  Available since 2005.

" These units are certified for sale and operation only in the United States, Canada and Australia.  "

So who ever said it was no go for Canada in 2020 was way out in the weeds.

I can not see how going to " districts "  for wireless is going to solve anything. As it stands, the more there are, the worse it gets: wirelessly.  Same applies to WiFi.  

You would be best to sort out the tethered connection and leave the wireless for small, at home and club.

Marc

DIY

Me and Paco F Canada, we did for Lenz type of command stations (XpressNet) nice DIY throttles.

See: http://www.fucik.name/masinky/XWL_modules/

You can have universal with display or one with loco address "on key card". That one is more realistic than any other. You take your loco by receiving "keys" and then you can control it.

Wifi and Wireless; sensisitive touch or not ?

.

Here is a another question

A sensitive touch like buttons and operate feeling or just a touch on a screen like an IPhone which seems to me have no feeling somewhere with my train

The best example about that is the success of the ProtoThrottle for diesel model locomotives control.

The wifi use offer the two possibilities, working with a touch screen where only symbols appears or like many radio wireless controller , with buttons which configures your needs.

This is also a point of view which must be not neglected.

I'm a buttons fan because of the "sensitive feeling"

Personally I use from years CVP 5000 and 9000 radio controlled wireless controler ( which are completely prohibited in Europe but I have used them during  years in Europe like many other modelers) first with a LENZ Dcc system  which worked perfectly for my needs

About CVP controller, I would  say they are bullet proof system and are really  strongly build.

Don't know if I can use them here in Quebec with the radio frequency rules,  but I can say they work perfectly with my new ZIMO Dcc system

I also like the wifi  ZIMO wireless controller which use different buttons and can display on the screen a picture of the locomotive which is useful in N scale. ( ZIMO is full wifi compatible from the computer JMRI access to the wireless  controller without any interface)

.

Canada and US RF Regulations

Canadian and American regulations on things such as radio equipment are very much in sync. Any differences are usually minor in nature.

But, just because it was certified in the US by the FCC doesn't mean that Spectrum is going to rubber stamp your application. The equipment in question will still have to be examined and approved before it can be imported and sold. They also take a very dim view of grey market imports of radio gear.

In the Caribbean many countries accept FCC certification, but sometimes that FCC "certification" on the device is bogus (unapproved). 

New Zealand and Australia have their own requirements, as does the UK. In the case of WiFi, there can be differences in frequency and channel allocations.

Wifi and Wireless;

I am not a fan of touch screens for train operation.  I prefer tactile buttons and rotary knobs for operation.  TCS offers a wifi throttle solution with their TCS UTW-100 and soon to be available TCS UWT-50

The above throttles work via WiFi and will work with most popular DCC systems, such as Digitrax, NCE, etc.

https://tcsdcc.com/throttle

Wi-Fi

Get a system with Wi-Fi throttles. That's the future, the best wireless system, and with TCS UWTs, can work on any DCC command station. Something like the Roco Z21 only works with compatible command stations like Digikeijs and Roco.

They got rid of it entirely. Now with multiple layouts, you have to buy a special 914.5mhz system for one of them to avoid cross control with the regular 916.5mhz system, but that really only works if it's the same club. I know of two clubs who have done that here, one with two scales of modular layout, one with multiple club layouts in the same building. The NCE radio system, while it was less bad than the alternatives for a while, is a very, very dated system at this point.

That's.... strange. Somehow the pricing on certain things gets super distored outside of the US. Here, the PowerCab is $160USD, the Zephyr is $175USD,  but the PowerCab doesn't come with the PC interface built in, so the sort of better comparison is $200 for the PowerCab and $175 for the Zephyr, but the Zephyr is a more powerful system that can handle more operators, so it ends up being cheaper. In the US, Digitrax is consistently about 20% cheaper than NCE for a comparable system.

I would add Wi-Fi to the Lenz system, but only if the system is in good shape. Of course adding WiThrottle to the Lenz system doesn't prevent them from switching to something else anyway down the road. Digikeijs would allow them to keep the Lenz throttles, and add Digitrax Duplex, Roco WLANMAUS, and WiThrottle (via a WiThrottle server on Raspberry Pi or a laptop).

Back to the point

Hi Crashbuck

I am with the Capital Model Railway Club in Wellington. Two years ago we started building a new exhibition layout  which has since been to several shows around the lower Nth Island. 

Our previous layout was Digitrax with both simplex and duplex.  One of the biggest bugbears with that layout was simplex throttle cables becoming a major trip hazard as operators attempted to follow their trains.

Given that the club had been donated a new Digitrax command station we elected to retain that as a base line but added in  Loconet, JMRI and Wi Throttle server.  We are now using a 5G wifi router and have had none of the interference issues mentioned by the Prof even with 5000 odd people in the same venue.

While  the Digitrax DCS 240 is a solid performer,  it (and NCE)  are both welded in 20th century technology.  LNWI is ,imho, a complete money grabbing joke.  

If we were starting over, we would be looking to 21st century technology.   The TCS wifi throttles appear to be getting good reviews and it will be interesting to see how their Command Station performs if it ever appears on the market. 

If it were us  we would probably run with Digikeijs DR 500 command station as the base line as this unit is compatible with pretty much every other network and throttle on the market. 

20th Century Technology

Absolutely true. 

 LNWI is ,imho, a complete

Consider me a sucker then.  I bought an LNWI to allow me to use TCS throttles with my old Digitrax Chief system.  It reportedly will allow me to use up to 4 wifi throttles, which I expect will be sufficient for my home layout, plus I have a couple of Digitrax Radio throttles.  I purchased the TCS throttle combo deal which got me essentially $50 off the UWT-100 and the UWT-50 (due out this summer)

Anyway, thanks for l vote of confidence (e.g. "that money grabbing joke I bought).  

Important point RE "5G WiFi"

Dear Crash, Peter,

Assuming "5G" in this quote-context means "5Ghz WiFi network"
(the term "5G" is more-commonly associated with 5G cellular/mobile-phone network,
which is a distinctly different form of "wireless")

This could be a key difference and explain Peter's "no observed issues" result...

...a cheaper, and far-more-common domestic or prosumer 2.4Ghz WiFi access point unit may well be more-suseptible to the kind of "swamping" and "SSID Broadcast" issues I've witnessed in the field on multiple continents...

...and, a knock-on thought occurs, given that not all devices support 5Ghz WiFi,
(do the new TCS throttles explicitly support 5Ghz, or just "WiFi"?
Use of the generic term does not mean that the extended 5Ghz band is supported by Default.
Just confirmed that the "ESP32 Development Board" that forms the basis of Dr Geoff's "SMA30" simple WiFi throttle" is 2.4Ghz only, although a new 5Ghz variant was mooted back in 2019??)

It has also been suggested in previous discussions here on MRH that configuring the Access Point to NOT Broadcast it's SSID may help, as a "Non-Broadcasting" Access Point tends to not attract all the "Who's out there?" traffic of every cell/mobile phone that walks in the door...

BTW, In trowelling thru the TCS site for "2.4Ghz VS 5Ghz WiFi" info, I also found this table,
which may be of-relevance to Crash's club's deliberations...

I know I've pressed old DLink DIR-300 Routers/Acccess-Points into temporary service for various networking and pro-audio-device-config missions.
(they were cheap, small, no-tears-if-damaged-on-the-road,
and just get thrown into my "go bag" by default for techsupport missions,
they are just soo-darn-useful to have on-hand...),

but as 2.4Ghz single-antenna units, I wouldn't trust them to survive in the larger East Coast Aussie exhibition venues (with their own Hi-gain broadcasting WiFi networks),

or against the onslaught of uncontrolled general-public smartphone floods...
(a limited-numbers "Convention" crowd, sure, but not a 1000's-per-hour "Exhibition").

...esp if the layout does not have a backup wired-throttle buss solution to Fall-back on....

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

I was looking at the TCS

I was looking at the TCS command station info on their website and was surprised it only supports 4 throttles "out of the box" and without additional hardware such as an external wifi router.  It seems to me a higher number of wifi throttles would be a better selling feature.

And ZIMO

.

It's a plug an play system with wifi

Just put it on; and go

It's already FULL WIFI connected without any interface.

Including any need to be connected with your computer; you have the choice, Wifi or USB

It's probably the more advanced system and full compatible  with the technology of 2021.

Course it's priced, but I'm very glad to choice it; it's more than a step foward besides other DCC system

I was looking at the TCS

This is an untrue statement. The TCS command station supports an unlimited number of throttles with the practical limit being around 100 or so.

The 4 throttle limit refers to the maximum number of throttles supported without using an external Wi-Fi router or base station. The Wi-Fi chip used in the TCS command station (running in access point mode) is limited to 4 directly connected Wi-Fi clients (handhelds). An external Wi-Fi router or base station can be added to expand beyond 4 directly connected Wi-Fi clients (handhelds). From the TCS Website:

• Unlimited WiFi Throttle Connections Through Auxiliary LCC-enabled WiFi Base Station(s)
• Up to 10 LCC WiFi Throttles when Using an External Wi-Fi Access Point (Router)
• Up to 4 LCC WiFi Throttles via on-board WiFi when used in Access Point Mode
• Up to 250 Locomotives and Consists

The TCS command station supports up to 62 NCE/SystemOne/Ramtraxx throttles (wired or wireless) or up to 31 XpressNET throttles "out of the box" through the auxiliary bus connector.

The TCS command station supports the ProtoThrottle using the ProtoThrottle NCE bus base station on the auxiliary bus connector.

Additionally, the TCS command station supports WiThrottle Protocol devices (WiThrottle App and Engine Driver, etc...) through the WiFi Trax WFD-30.

Thanks,

Stuart

2.4GHz versus 5Ghz Wi-Fi

It is absolutely an untrue statement that 5GHz Wi-Fi offers superior performance over 2.4GHz. In fact, it is the opposite, 2.4GHz is highly preferred over 5GHz in a model railway control setup. The UWT-100 intentionally is designed to use the 2.4GHz space for this reason. I state this as someone who designs Wi-Fi products as part of my full time job.

It is true that 2.4GHz can become congested, and this can become a problem for some applications, mainly high bandwidth applications. However, Wi-Fi is extremely good at collision avoidance and recovery. For low bandwidth applications, congested environments do not really present much of a problem. A Wi-Fi throttle will operate extremely well with much less than 1 Mbps effective throughput. 1Mbps is between 1% and 2% of the capacity of most modern Wi-Fi systems. 2.4 GHz also has significantly superior range over 5GHz.

Wi-Fi is also a wide band high power technology, and it is going to win out against interference with nearly anything else found in the 2.4GHz spectrum. This includes BLE, Zigbee, Digitrax Duplex, etc...

As a practical exercise, I have tested the UWT-100 (2.4 GHz Wi-Fi) in a lot of very tough environments (hotel convention halls, large train shows, dense residential, etc...). In all my testing, I have not once come across a single instance where it did not work reliably. This includes a few instances where I was able to scan around 50 or more advertising BSSID's/SSID's.

I'm not saying that there isn't an environment where eventually the UWT-100 would fail, I'm sure we could intentionally design such an environment, but I have experienced it working reliably when all other non-Wi-Fi systems have completely failed (NCE, CVP, Digitrax Duplex, etc...). If the UWT-100 doesn't work in a given environment, you can all but guarantee that no other existing wireless non-Wi-Fi model railroad control system will work either.

Thanks,

Stuart