Apoligies response..........

Hi Jeff,

I missed seeing that thread but really glad to see MRH take a stand that this is a railroading forum and needs to stay that way. On a personal side I have what most would consider extreme political views but never want that to enter into my hobby/recreation/etc. world. I have abandoned many other TV viewing and web site social forums in the last year for just this very reason.

Regards,

Loren

No apologies needed

Some people are starting to take their political nonsense and biases into fields far removed from politics. Within the last couple of weeks, I've reported a number of "cute" attempts to inject current politics into such facebook groups as 3D printing, WW2 boardgames, and a 1970s-1990 military reunion group.  None of which have any interest or bearing on the current election or any individuals or groups so involved.

As far as I'm concerned, removing such posts (and the posters themselves after a second warning) is nothing but a public service.

Thank you.

Janet N.

When will it end ?

I spotted the " offending " signature when it was posted. I had no clue what the acronym stood for and took no notice of it until someone took exception. Upon using the wonderful world wide web to find out..I had a chuckle and I have to admit I just lumped the acronym up into that mental file where I store things like " flat earth " and others. 

The question is..when will the censorship end? I see quite a few foks here that have Christian biblical scriptures in their signniatures and this might offfend some. What happens in someone from a conflicting religion puts something in their signiature or someone of a corresponding religion is offended by these Christian quotes ? Will any moderator take exception for one and not the other based on their own religious beliefs ? Shouldn't MRH be premptive and ban those as well..what happenes if someone puts up a picture or signiature tag that has colors linked to a political or religious group that is deemed highly offensive ? The possibilities are endless.

I understand rabble rousing rhetoric and none of it in any form certainly has no place here. I also understand that as the broad brush of indignation gets used in broad and sure strokes for censorship, people shut down. They walk away. They learn that avoidance is the best policy. That being said, places, magazines, gatherings, writers and online media can and will see a sharp drop in attendance and activity when they suddenly become the morality police over small inconsequential things. Things are bad enough with how publications are changing. Fewer dollars are being allocated for advertising. When advertisers see traffic slowing down or subscriptions dying off, they take notice and spend their money where and when they think it will do their business the best. 

Some things need to be monitored, censored, or downright smashed on. I get it. But that old thing about what you do for one you must do for all, and if you cannot do for all, then you certainly cannot do for the one suddenly comes to the forefront here. There was a post some time ago alluding to the idea that some folks here needed to get rhino skin. I am starting to understand that sentiment now. I try to read a lot of the posts here and at one time was in the process of finalizing a few articles in an attempt to submit them to MRH for publishing however this train of thought has certainly derailed those plans, all puns intended. 

Response to "When will it end ?"

Thanks for the thought provoking comments. I most certainly don't have the answers.

I was raised with two adages ingrained in my brain.

"If you can't say something nice, don't say nothing at all".

"I respectfully agree to disagree".

Unfortunately, neither one of those phrases seem to apply anymore.

It's our space

It's our space and we make the rules. Think of this forum like MRH office space. If someone comes into our office space and slaps a political poster up on the wall, it's totally within our right to take it down and say "sorry".

No court in the land will call that censorship. Censorship is when you're in a public space and you get shut down. Privately owned spaces can do what they like as to what can and can't be said. In your own home, for example -- if someone wanted to make you put up a poster with a slogan on it, can you say no? Of course you can.

On the flip side, if you have a quote hanging on the wall in your private space, can visitors force you to take it down if they don't like it? No.

Bottom line, it's our space and we decide what stays and what goes. Again, that's our legal right, just like it is with space you own.

Thanks Joe!

Thanks for the perfect explanation Joe.  Pretty much sums it up.

Well said

Well said Joe.

For a number of years I was a moderator for a private company forum and it was the same there.  People cried censorship etc. but it was their forum and they made the rules.

I feel it is well within reason to require forum members to keep their yaps shut about politics and such.  We come here to talk trains and get break from all that other stuff.  I'm glad to see MRH staff draw a line in the sand.  Good work!

A valid point is raised...

...by "Bad Order" in his post.  The criteria of not posting something that is divisive is too open ended.  In today's Cancel Culture ANYTHING can be considered divisive.  Heck even Model Trains can be divisive (and PLEASE, no one go on a tangent on this, I'm just bringing it up to make my point) Just look at when a debate breaks out over modeling the prototype exactly vs totally freelance modeling.   Or "So and so" is ruining this hobby by insisting everyone models trains his/her way.  Yes Joe, you get to decide what is divisive and what isn't.  But one must be careful that domino's don't start to fall because then the question does become, what's next?  

Though I wonder how long MRH forum's will be up in the near future, should Congress decide to remove the legal protections from being sued for content posted on a forum such as this.  I sure would not want to be exposed to such legal problems.  SIGH :-\

Ken L.

I think

We have roughly 12 years of history here and I can't really think of any time Joe has been called out for being too restrictive on what gets posted on here.  Generally, its the opposite and people have gotten worked up about that and left.  I think its a bit of a red herring to think that Joe is going to be too restrictive on the content in the future, given the 12+ years of history on this site.

Thanks ...

I personally am not into removing posts ... if anything, we tend to lock threads and leave them be. That means Google searches can find the dissenting opinion you posted and it remains in all its glory for anyone on the planet to find and read.

You still had your say and it remains on the world wide web for anyone to find and read for as long as our archives remain -- and will remain for way beyond that through the way back machine.

That hardly smacks of a rampant "censorship" mindset ... thanks to our "prefer not to delete it" policy and to the internet, you're getting a better bully pulpit for your opinions than we ever had a few decades ago.

That said, we will remove extremely divisive signature content if we judge it to be "fuel for starting online fights having nothing to do with trains" ... and we intend to be quite tolerant about what we judge to be divisive.

1st Amendment... NOT

I do tire of those who decry "1st Amendment" rights online or anywhere else.

One was up in the face of a friend of mine who lost his foot in in a far off land in the Army before the pandemic hit, telling him all kinds of things I don't even wanna get into.

So, as the guy in question was picking himself off the floor and wondering if his jaw was broken (and not realizing at that point he got off lucky), he said something about how his 1st Amendment rights had been "illegally violated," to which my friend quickly informed him that that isn't at all what the 1st Amendment means, adding that it doesn't stop the offending person from meeting the floor quickly as a personal price for something that deserves it. Another offensive comment followed and another trip to the floor was on his agenda, followed by a trip to the ER because his jaw was broken that time.

From what he'd said to my friend, I still think he got off easy even then.

So, if Joe edits or removes something you wrote, like he said, you came into his house and talked smack. Pick yourself off the floor, realize the lesson, and move on.

That makes perfect sense to me.

We live in an era where people feel they have 'more' rights than others, and I find that downright frightening.

Don't ever forget, "I'm offended by that," goes both ways, as do the consequences.

Sentence

I sentence Mr Shultz to 100 days in the train room, to be served on weekends. No time off for good behavior.

I personally am not into

That seems to be the philosophy of a lot of chat groups on FB and other media - to err on the side of leaving offensive comments and posts up.

I have purposefully decided to avoid most of those avenues as people seem to feel free behind their keyboards to post all manner of insults and offensive comments, often sounding very unhinged.  My wife does read chat groups and reads enough posts to me and what she reads make my brain want to implode; people can be really awful or even crazy.

Leaving offensive posts in "all their glory", at the end of the day, does not seem like a good thing.  It's like leaving a lot of garbage out in the world for us to stumble onto and have to plug our noses and go yuk, and walk away.

Life is stressful and what with ever more dissention, polarization, and add to that the stresses from the pandemic and the explosion of social media with all manner of arguments and insults flying around.  It certainly makes me think Gene Roddenberry's optimistic vision of the future as shown on Star Trek, was a nice idea but a complete pipe dream. 

It's good to urge people to be polite but unfortunately, for one reason or another, many are quite the opposite.  Hence then need for moderation.  If we had no police in society, it would not be a safe place in real life.  I suppose the fly in the ointment is where do you draw the line?  Certainly I've noticed in northern Virginia, there is a lack of police patrol presence, and it's clear by observing the high rate of drivers shirking traffic laws, often blatantly, that they have noticed the lack of police presence and have become bold and brazen - they pass on double yellow lines often, they speed up at stop signs to beat oncoming cars, the old "California rolling stop?  thats a distant memory.  Here they blow through stop signs fast routinely. They routinely speed 15 or 20 over the speed limit, they tailgate at dangerously close range, they drive without headlights as required by law when it's raining (about 1 in 4 or 5 cars).  I had a truck drive around me in a lighted intersection and it was a WTH moment.  I saw another car do the same thing, illegally passing cars in single lane lighted intersections or using a left turn lane to go around another car. 

There is an old saying, when the cat's away, the mice will play, and on the roads the mice are having a field day.  This is just human nature and at my age, the pattern is very easy to see.  I believe the same principle applies in many venues, including social media and forums.  Some more than others of course.

It's your show and your forum, but I believe there is probably more harm than good by leaving offensive posts in-tact.  Offensive siggys' or tags are worse, of course, because they are persistent show up in every post.  And I have noticed a few here have offensive, or at least, disturbing siggys for quite some time.  Some that make me scratch my head and wonder "why so negative", "why the attitude"?  Some are disturbing even though not blatantly offensive.  But as some say, what do I know?  I can express my thoughts and hope reason prevails.

There's a time and place for everything

Want to talk politics, go to Twitter. Want to talk trains, come to MRH. I'm a pretty outspoken political person especially in this day and age but I reserve that for my Twitter and never bring it here.

Short Fuse

It’s tough not to get sucked into the political discussion sometimes especially this year.  Happens to the best of us.

Joe
 

  "It's your show and your

I'm not for censorship of the good and the truth but certainly am when it's for the bad and the false( and if you can't tell the difference you shouldn't be posting). I agree with what Jim is saying about enforcement leading to a better enviornment and would have banned some of these posters years ago. I'm impressed by Joe's christian charity and apparent hope that the baddies will repent :> ) ......DaveB

Maintaining our forum mission

I'm impressed by Joe's

I recall a case where charity was practiced at another site in the past.  Some members were, let's say, critical of a manufacturers models.  While there was truth in what they had to say, the criticism went on and on for many pages and again in other threads on and on to the point where the effect was corrosive and even abusive.  The manufacturer no longer goes to that site and probably won't for a very long time; it traumatized the employee's of that company greatly affected moral negatively.  That case was IMO extreme but because those responsible were allowed to continue and no posts were removed, it went beyond too far.  If a topic was locked, it would just continue on and on in other topics.  In the end the members who wouldn't stop with the corrosive criticism disappeared (assumed to be removed) the damage was done.

This example wasn't was about people fighting and insulting each other.  Some even argued that the criticism was not only truthful but deserved, and justified.  On hind sight, the initial comments and criticism on it's own was true and ok, it's been said, even several times.  But there was a slippery slope and it just kept going and going and going ad nauseum.  Where does a moderator step in?  Definitely in that case, much sooner might have prevented irreparable damage to a model manufacturer and employee's moral and interaction with customers and hobbyists.

Some members of forums believed they should have the right to be "snarky" at others, and to be essentially jerks.  I've been on forums since I was a freshman at Sacramento State University as a college student and being snarky or a jerk online usually doesn't go well and ends up offending others or escalating into heated arguments.

Now heated or spirited arguments about trains or things, seems "ok" or can yes, have value, but the problem comes in when it gets personal, where people flame or insult ones own reputation or personality.  Those kind of things seem pretty clear that they cross the line into moderator territory.  Sometimes that value may have diminishing returns if accompanied by mean spirited or personal or insulting comments.  What "cost" does that value come at.  All good things to consider.  Does the ends justify the means?  That seems to be what many a suggesting more and more these day, in kinds of topics.

Basically it is an administrator's job to sometimes delete offensive posts, and even to ban form members.  Yes, a process needs to be spelled out, 3 strikes or whatever with warnings, but I have found, sometimes you can warn someone till you are blue in the face and they just don't care.  There is a solution for that naturally and but at some point, in some cases, the admins may have to make the call.

Of course there are multiple perspectives in the hobby.  So long as those are voiced without being insulting or abusive to others.  It seems pretty easy for those experienced to tell the difference.  

The one exception

Given that we're ad-supported, this is one area where we will step in quickly.

While it's important to allow the truth to come out about product flaws as a service to our readers, we also will not tolerate bashing a manufacturer mercelessly on this site. We will step in quickly and lock such threads, and delete any attempts to resurrect the issue on new threads. We won't delete the critical commentary, but we also will nip it in the bud quickly.

Obviously, if a manufacturer gets the idea that the MRH forum permits endless manufacturer bashing, you can forget our ad-supported funding model from ever flying. So we don't shy away from allowing product flaws to be revealed, but we prefer to take a "let the manufacturer save face" approach -- meaning okay, so it has a flaw. Now how do we work around it or fix it so you can still enjoy an otherwise great product?

Also, the minute we see an extensive critical manufacturer commentary thread start, we contact the manufacturer and invite them to step in and comment. The idea is maybe they didn't know they had a flaw, or maybe they know about it and have an answer -- in other words, they will make it good if you just ask, for example. 

Endless bellyaching doesn't help anyone, so we try to be very proactive on this point, if for no other reason than to safeguard our own ad-funded publishing model. Getting the manufacturer themselves involved quickly tends to put the damper on endless bellyaching and speculation. Getting the response "directly from the horses mouth" as they say quickly turns an otherwise negative thread into a very helpful one.

Those who won't back down

That's true and those folks have been banned from this forum. If after a three times of trying to reason with someone who keeps picking fights they don't turn over a new leaf, we ban them. I do have a limit to my "Christian charity" ...

If new members come on here and see a bunch of cat fighting in the threads, they will leave. So that's why after three tries if someone will not back down and try to be more kind, we will ban them.

in perspective

bottom line is Joe is doing something right or we wouldn't all be here. This is basically the only model railroad site I visit so let's focus on the positives and not the negatives of Joe's ( and Jeff's) approach ....DaveB

Just to add a little humor to

Just to add a little humor to the subject, Jim Fitch's post about the Virginia drivers reminds me of a joke:

A man was riding with his friend when his friend blew through a stop sign. The man says "hey man, your going to get us killed!" The driver replied "don't worry about it, my brother does it all the time. This went on for a couple of stop signs and each time the driver insisted it was OK because his brother did it all the time. Then the driver suddenly stops at an intersection where he had the right of way. the rider yelled "what in the world are you doing now! your going to get us killed!' The driver replied "hey man, my brother might be coming!'

A little corny and un-train related, but hey, a little humor makes for a better day.

As a society we still need to figure out the internet

while I have not seen what started the argument and while I agree that political argument have no point on a dedicated private forum such as this.  
The problem is while the internet has been around for a few decades that time is culturally speaking relatively short and we have not as yet worked our way around and through the various obstacles and issues, challenges and opportunities that it presents.

The other issue is that while the internet is basically private property the reality is that it reaches much farther then standing on a box in the middle of a  park.

As such the very point of the 1st amendment is being made questionable .  If person A can talk in a park to hundreds and person B has access to thousands or millions of folks on the internet it is a bit unbalanced.  
But obviously a private limited purpose forum such as MRH train forums are obviously not the place for political debates.

Add in that it is very difficult in this 24/7 news cycle to get away from the constant hounding presence of the news.  So people have become and are becoming very agitated.  It is much like the constant irritation such a a sour from a new boot or the “water torture”  or many other things that while only a bit annoying at first become unbearable after many hours or days.  And added to the stress of the current year and all that it brings with it, it is perhaps understandable why these types of things happen.  But still not a justification for it.

Understanding how a car accident happens is one thing but it does not justify the accident.

However unfortunately until society works out the solution for these issues it will remain a bone of contention on all forums such as this.

-Doug M