Too much?

See the graphite thread, in particular this post:  https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/graphite-track-treatment-12196204

Added...

 Did you add graphite to the inside corner of all your rails?  

Randy

Tell us more

Reduce the load temporarily

Dear Daboo, 

This was to be expected if your loco was just handling the load without slipping previously. And you won't know/can't easily find out just how close you were to the limit of adhesion under the previous track conditions, because the loco looked like it was doing the job "easily".

A suggestion 

• reduce the amount of cars on the consist until you don't have any indication of  slipping on the grade. How many cars were you dragging previously? How many can you now drag?
• run trains with this reduced loading. The trains should run the grade easily now without slipping.
• continue to run trains on the grade. Do not apply any more graphite. Over time the excess graphite on the track will "mash down" to a very thin layer almost one graphite layer thick. At this point graphite becomes less slippery (do a search for "graphene" to see why). Gradually increase the load 1 car at a time until you start to slip. Then back the load off 1 car. You are now at your new limit of adhesion, but your trains will run better with less wheel sparking and crud build up than previously. 
• Also look at tuning your cars to reduce their rolling resistance. That might get you an extra car or 2 up the grade without slipping. There are articles in MRH and on the forum about how to go about it.
• You haven't mentioned whether you are using a steam or diesel locomotive. If you are using a steam loco, look at reducing the amount of force exerted down by any leading and trailing trucks on the steam locomotive. There is a limit here - go too light, then you could have tracking and derailment problems (usually at turnouts). But every faction of an ounce you can get back onto the driving wheels might make enough difference to let you add another car in your consist that can be got up the hill without slipping.      
• All model railroading is a trade-off. Here the trade-off is better running and far less track cleaning for a reduced load on the grade. Whether you are prepared to accept that trade-off is up to you.
• If you absolutely must tow X cars up the grade and X exceeds what you can tow with graphite on the track. then you can easily remove the graphite with a rag and white spirit. But you are going to be cleaning your tracks a whole lot more often   
• But real railroads have some tricks up their sleeve that we don't as modellers. They can drop sand to assist grip and more recently Hi-Ad(hesion) bogie designs and AC traction motors that can deliver more torque at lower speed longer than the earlier DC traction motors. 
• Remember real railroads avoid grades if they can, especially if they are +2%. There is a reason for that, in that the grade reduces the amount they can tow. And sometimes they even had to use "helpers" on the grade to get a stipulated load "over the hump".

Applying graphite

Question for Joe: Is this disagreeing with you? I feel it's just a different way of applying the graphite. But: When I applied graphite on my layout, I dabbed a "bit" of about 1/2 inch or so, skipped about a foot, did another dab - and so on. Did about 3' to 6' total and then ran a few cars over the track to distribute the graphite. When done, you could not see any graphite. It is not visible. In fact, if you touch/not swipe with a finger, nothing shows on your finger. The graphite helps conduct the electricity. That's all I use it for. As for clean. I do make sure the track is absolutely clean. Mineral Spirits may be best, and alcohol is the old stand by, and I still like my acetone. So, it is critical to clean the track and also critical that the graphite is so thin you don't know it's there. (My final note is that I used graphite that was shaved off drawing pencil lead. No wood, just graphite. I also ran a magnet over it just to be sure there's no metal. Call me extra careful.) Hope this helps.

It’s fine

No, it’s fine. Using graphite is a new hobby technique so I’m sure there’s plenty of new field experience we can use to factor into how to best apply it. We will learn the best practices as more field experience comes in.

I apply it everywhere but I’m very deliberate about how I do it.

I first clean the track and wheels thoroughly with a non-polar low dielectric constant solvent.

Then I very lightly apply the graphite to just the inside railhead using a 4B stick. I use one quick swipe with light to moderate pressure. If anything, I aim to under-apply it. If I miss an inch or two no big deal and I avoid doing a second application on grades without cleaning first. I also avoid ANY back and forth with the stick. One LIGHT swipe PERIOD.

Graphite is one of those things where the less you apply the better. It’s the super thin layer you can’t see that does the magic.

How I did it.

First, I cleaned my track using the track cleaner you used in the video.  Then I used my track cleaning cars (ala John Allen) to do the best job I could at cleaning track.  Then I applied my graphite to the track; but, was not able to access the whole track due to tunnels and reach in some locations.  I simply wiped the Graphite stick across the inside corner of the rails and did not apply any pressure other than the amount my hands and arms pressed in the process.  I made one pass. 

So, I am dissatisfied with how this turned out and trying to remove the graphite from my tracks.  Does anyone have a good suggestion?    

Slipage

Yes you will have some slippage with any track treatment that you use. I run some small steam engines and have one spot of a short grade, after a graphite treatment they have trouble on that spot. It does get a little better after running for a while. As in most things in life, it’s a trade off between the loss of traction versus having to be constantly cleaning track, you take your pick.

Sounds like too much graphite.

Just to clarify, did you run the graphite on the entire length of the track?

I haven't seen Joe's video, but in the original explanation, you should not apply everywhere. Just every 10' or so and let the locomotives spread it.

When I applied it, it was a 6" swipe every 10'. We did not notice any significant adhesion issues because of this in particular the 2.5% grade into a 36" radius turn worked as well as previous. 

Any treatment you do has the potential to impact adhesion. as other have said, if you were right at the edge of adhesion I could see this happening.

Cleaning it off

I’d suggest running a light cleaning pass with your track cleaning car to see if that removes enough to solve your traction problem but keeps a tiny bit to get the graphite benefits. 

Too much...

I just do a quick swipe every so often.  Maybe a 6" light swipe every 10' or more.  

Randy

Give graphite a decent trial

Dear Daboo,

So you're  very disappointed that you can't tow as much uphill as you did previously?? Unfortunately graphite wasn't the promised "silver bullet" that killed all your layout "demons". A 2% grade is a fair sized layout demon. There are worse demons, like 3% grades.

Out of curiosity:

• how many cars were you towing previously in your train?
• How many cars can you tow now after graphite was used?
• were all cars on the grade or was the train that long that some of the cars were still on the level below when you loco was over the top of the grade? Your answer here could be important when it comes to train performance.
• Were there curves on the grade? If there were, and you have a accurately measured grade of 2% then the rolling resistance of your rolling stock on the curve(s) adds to the steepness of the grade facing your locomotive. The additional rolling resistance through curves (especially the tight curves we use on our model trains that are many times tighter than those used on the prototype when scaled out) can be very significant. Real railroads reduce the actual grade through curves to a "compensated grade of x%". I've got a real railroad grade of 3.3% compensated grade (i in 30) within earshot of my house. The locomotives are bellowing all the way up the grade and you can hear the anti-wheelslip gear doing its job.       

Please have a long hard read of my previous post and do the following  

1. reduce your load until the train doesn't slip 
2. run trains almost continuously up the grade using the reduced loading for a week with the same consist.
3. do not apply any more graphite
4. After a week keep running trains on the grade. Add one car at a time until you start to slip. Back the load off 1 car this now becomes your "standard consist"
5. Now to refine your consist and find the cars that have a higher rolling resistance. This will do 2 things
   • it will segregate out your worst running rolling stock for subsequent attention
   • it will allow to tow more better-running cars up the grade
6. Swap one car out of your standard consist for a new car and run the grade. If the train doesn't slip the replacement car stays as part of the new standard consist. If the train slips, then the replacement car is swapped out for a another new car and segregated because it has a higher rolling resistance than the original car. 
7. Swap out another car and repeat Step 6. Eventually you will have have tested all you rolling stock and have new "standard consist" that contains your "best rolling" wagons. 
8. Add an extra car and see if you slip or not. If not you have a new longer "standard consist" that is longer by a car. Repeat until you start to slip on the grade. 
9. For the segregated wagons, look at how freely each axle spins. You will probably find one or more tight axles on these cars. Repair them so that all axles spin very freely and then swap these into your standard consist. Repeat steps 6, 7 & 8. Eventually you will have a the maximum train of free-rolling cars that can be handled by you loco on the grade. 
10. Now make your decision whether you can "live with" the length of your new "standard train". If you can't, then I've already given you the way to remove graphite from the tracks. You will also need to clean your wheels of both locos and cars to remove any graphite from them. Areas in tunnels that can't be reached will eventually "walk" graphite out onto nearby track. This nearby will probably need to be cleaned more than one if you want graphite totally eradicated,   

Adding an extra locomotive or 2 to the train is sooo much easier. Adding a "shover" operation with DCC is also possible as you "charge the hill". Like this on on a 2.5% grade -

The choice is your to make - but applying graphite is a whole lot easier than the application processes for many of the other track treatments out there, and the benefits of reduced track cleaning and wheel cleaning should outweigh by far any disadvantages of shorter trains,           

Track cleaning cars

What kind of track cleaning car did you use? Also, after using such a car, take a clean Q-tip, dip it in track cleaner, and run it along the top and inside top edge of the rail. Is the Q-tip relatively clean? You need to test the track to determine how well your track cleaning consist is actually doing.

If the Q-tip is still filthy with black gunk, then all your track cleaning car has done is loosen the black gunk and redistribute it — it hasn’t really removed much of it. You need some way to actually REMOVE the black gunk off the rails, and for that you need a good track cleaning consist such as the one I show in this article in the Feb 2020 Running Extra.

Loosened black gunk mixed with a bit of graphite will definitely affect traction, sad to say.

Also, did you likewise clean the loco wheels well first? Otherwise old black gunk and oil residue on the wheels from running on the layout can contribute to the slippage.

Keep in mind the application of graphite to the inside railhead is still a new technique and needs a lot of field results input to tell us what works and what does not work for all kinds of different use cases. It’s starting to sound like applying the graphite on the flatter areas of the rails and avoiding the steepest grades may be one approach. Another approach might be to space out the graphite application on grades, like this: half inch graphite, skip an inch, half inch graphite, skip an inch, and so on.

I ran three unit diesel lashups on SL1 grades with mid train helpers giving the long trains lots of power, so the LIGHT application of graphite to the inside railhead did not stop my trains from getting up the grades. But a single steamer that’s right on the edge of slipping could start slipping with a light application of graphite on the grade.

It would be useful to clean the track on the grade by hand using Q-tips soaked in track cleaner until the rail is completely clean. Also make sure the loco that’s slipping has its wheels thoroughly cleaned. Now build a train that just gets up the grade on the clean wheels and track — keep adding cars until the loco slips then remove one car, that’s an “at the limit” test train.

Now try applying the graphite as I mentioned: half inch of light graphite along the inside railhead, skip an inch, then light application of graphite for a half inch, then skip an inch, and so on. Then do the other side, but start with one inch of no graphite, then half inch of graphite, and so on, staggering the graphite areas between the two rails.

Now test the train. If it slips, then even this level of graphite is negatively effecting it. Remove one car and try again. In other words, see HOW MUCH the graphite application has compromised the traction. If just one car then you need to decide if more reliable contact and no sputtering when climbing the grade is worth the cost of one (or two) car(s). If not, then clean the track again with track cleaner and Q-tips to remove the graphite and see if the at limit train now climbs the grade.

The Track Magic track cleaner is very good and it “treats” the rail with an oxide inhibiting coating very similar to the No-ox treatment discussed elsewhere on here. That may be enough on your grades and the graphite is then just overkill. You need to give it some time and see.

Everyone’s experiences in actual practice may be slightly different because of all the variables, so I appreciate relaying actual experiences like this so we can build up a body of knowledge around these new techniques and develop a very good understanding of the limits of these new methods.

I have taken some of your advice.

I've cleaned the track and have gotten back to where my locos can haul what they used to up my 2% grades.  I was interested in the idea of the graphite to reduce the black gunk on my track.  Had I heard that I should only     apply about a 6 inch length of Graphite to my railhead every so often on my layout, I would have been much more careful!  I better understand the process now.  

I will however disagree with one thing you state in your video, Joe.  Where you stated and showed rubbing the graphite onto the rail is the only place that the wheels make contact with the rail.  This is also the location where traction is made; or, lost.  I don't believe the wheels ever make contact the rail head!

The wheels have too...

If they didn't make contact with the railhead, then they would slip in between the rails.  

Ken L. 

the waterhole..

No, I'm not going to drown the horse to make it drink from the waterhole,

Given how little information you've offered back about what you are doing and how you are doing it, and, and also given that it appears you've chosen to continue what you were doing and ignore the advice offered by those of us with some experience of this process, you're on your own. 

Good luck with your track and wheel cleanliness. You are going to be cleaning everything a lot more often than you would have had to otherwise.

Just don't keep asking why your track keeps needing almost continuous cleaning to keep the black gunk away.

Good luck, you're going to need it when your loco starts to splutter to a standstill on that 2% hill,

Contact depends on railhead profile

On real railroads the wheel treads have a slight taper, and the railhead is a large curve with tighter radius at the corners.  The wheel tread does sit on the railhead a little to the inside of the center because of the wheel tread taper.

On model track the situation is muddier, because different brands of wheels can have different tapers on the treads, and different brands of track have a different profile for the rail.  Some like atlas a very squared off - the wheel most definitely only rides on the inside corner.  Others like microengineering have a bit more prototypical cross section, wheels with a shallow taper probably would ride on the railhead.

To repeat myself.

What I do and am very happy with the results. I clean the track. I use acetone, but alcohol can also be used. Mineral spirits or what Joe advises is probably the best. But once the track is clean: I use my finger with a cloth over it. I dab a bit of graphite about 1/2" on the rail, emphasizing the inside of the rail. Then about a foot over, do another dab. I do about 6' and then run a couple cars over the track to distribute that graphite. That's all. I then continue on the layout. 6' at a time, using the cars wheels to distribute.I can dab a clean finger and not come up with anything. You can not see the graphite. It's so thin you might not even know it's there. I think running 6" might be too much. IMHO and this is my final statement on this. Also, be sure to run an engine with a short train over the entire layout when done. The graphite distributes very nicely and I see no slowing of any train.

"Moriarty, quit hitting me with the Negative Waves"?

The horse is not dead, but very BOARD with your comments!

What lack of information do you need, as I felt I have desciped my problem very well!  People have suggested very helpful options to me and I have followed them closely.  My problem was I had applied the graphite to all of the track on my layout.  I have removed as much of it as I could; but, think I now have graphite close to how I should have applied it in the first place!  Previous to the application of graphite, my track took very little effort to keep my trains running well.  However, the idea of only cleaning track once a year sounded good to me, so I tried the process out.

I have been a participant of Model Railroading Forums since the mid 1990s.  However recently I've begun to feel that people like you make the forums less worth the effort! 

Mark DeSchane, Daboosailing

graphite and grades

To those who are happy with graphite: what grades do you have on your layout?

If you filter out the flat-layout people, is there is anyone left boosting graphite use? I'm still not sure the technique is appropriate for every layout.

Grades

We showed positive results from a sparing application of graphite on a large (1800 sq.ft. area, 450' main) with long grades of about 1.75%.  It does work once the application and the cleaning routines are fine-tuned. Our main problem is over-application of the 90% alcohol used on cleaning trains. That restarts the whole process.

Try a non-polar solvent

If you're willing to adopt the graphite (non-polar and microarc-inhibiting in very thin layers), then you should go the rest of the way and adopt a non-polar cleaning solvent as well.

The most inexpensive non-polar track/wheel cleaning solvent that's readily available is mineral spirits. The huge La Mesa club uses it as their track and wheel cleaning solvent, so it's clearly been extensively field-tested by them with positive results.

They abandoned using isoproplyl alcohol (IPA) as a track/wheel cleaning solvent because its polar characteristics encourage microarcing, which means the harder you clean the track and wheels with IPA, the faster they get dirty again from microarcing.

To those who are happy with

We used Graphite on the club layout. We had a couple of 2%+ grades into 36" radius curves with 1 2.5% into 36" curve and graphite did not impact adhesion in a significant way.  

Cleaned with Mineral spirits. Swipes of graphite on the inside every 10ish feet.

Grades : Live fire

Dear EW,

I've recorded my examples before (Search box is a thing), but in specific ref to grades:- Personal layouts - HO SG between 2 and 4% grades, inc 18" curves, using PECO rail almost exclusively
(Code 100, 83, and 75).

Zero slipping from a Proto 2000 GP18 and a 12-car traling Ath BB car train, or a On30 Class A Climax and actual 2kilogram trailing live log loads. Both examples include "complete train stopped on grade, standing-start launch" tests...

HOn30 4% grade with 9" radii curves. Single Class A Climax (effectively an N-scale LifeLike SW1200 mech),
hauling 6-car disconnect-logging trains with zero observable slippage.
(Standing-start test confirmed OK).

- Fellow modeller home layout : On3 (handlaid track, rail manuf unknown) with 12+ foot long 3% grade.

Initial application was half-way round the layout mainline,
but was TOOO HEAVY! (railhead went from visibly "NS yellow" to "matte-black"...oh dear...)

A circulating K27-powered 15-car freight train went from

"pulling the grade, but stuttering like a mongrel"
(DCC, no sound, no KA, but barely able to make 12" linear run without a power/pickup-related stop/start jerk + headlight flicker/disable)

to 

"pulling the hill at steady speed with roughly-observed 3:1 ratio wheelslip"
(throttle wasn't adjusted at all, just "let it eat" and see what happens)

in literally the first lap/pass over the graphite section, and thence onto the grade.

Having crested the grade, ran around the mainline loop, and attacked the grade again, 
(rinse and repeat), after approx 5 laps,

the wheelslip had reduced to "undetectable by human eye" levels,
the actual "linear speed" (scale mph, if you will) on the grade had returned to pre-graphite levels,
(IE can't remember the time in seconds, but "from base-of-grade to summit" travel time was stable and confirmed against known "pre graphite" climb-the-grade times...)

and the audible mechanical/motor noise (DCC, pre-onboard sound)
suggested that the mech was "earning it's living, but doing it within torque specs"
(IE almost the same as pre-graphite).

...but the noticable improvement in "lack of pickup stuttering" for _all_ subsequent locos
(IE wheh the K27 train went into staging,
and the next trains had their turn lapping the mainline,
NB that this was a NG Convention "Open House" session),

around _all_ of the mainline trackage was startling, esp to the layout-owner...
(amazing what you'll "put up with" when you don't know any better).

- HO/HOn3/HOn30 triple-gauge logging Exhibition layout,
inc Shinohara dual-gauge HO/HOn3, and various PECO 9mm gauge and ME rail sources - This one is a tricky one. The layout was _designed_ with 2% grades on 24" radii curves at either end of the layout (transition from "on scene" to "backstage" at either end). However, when bad exhibition-hall floors and other "typical exhibition factors" were brought to the party, against actual laser/water-level confirmed gravity-defined "Flat", we were hitting as hard as 3+%.

The loads? A Mantua Mallet (can-remotored, loco wheel flanges turned-down, tender running Kadee trucks)
VS a 30-car MDC "3 in 1" metal-bodied long-log skel train (stock MDC trucks and brass-axle/plastic wheelsets)
+ actual Casurina log-loads. That's over 4 actual kilos of trailing load...

Our technique for this layout was to:
- do a complete PECO Track rubber clean + vacuum, and then graphite-swipe on ALL rails on the Wed before the show.
- Load the trailer on Thurs night.
- Friday = Travel-day to the show + setup.
(NB that this layout did NO MORE than 3 shows per year, to avoid crew burnout and "saturating the crowd").

Initial runs for all locos during Fri-night setup/testing were usually "light trailing load" (say, 10-car max),
but on Sat, the first-day of a 3-day show, it was straight into full 24-car trains, non-stop for 8+ hours.
Stop/start on the grades (typically for crowd photo opportunities) held no-fear, and the Mallet launched and marched-away with whatever we threw at it... Same for MDC Shays (double-headed Class B, or single Class C three-trucker), and Rivarossi Heislers. 

Up on the HOn30 loop, we ran dbl-headed Class A Climaxes + a "powered water tender",
(effectively 3x N scale proto2000/lifelike SW1200 mechs) with a 20-load "disconnect log train"
(actual aussie hardwood log loads on disconnects built from MT archbars and Atlas metal wheesets).

Trailing load was in the region of 2 kilos, but the "design grade" was 3% on (worst case) 9" radii curves,
and, as mentioned above could end up actually measuring out at 4+% once bad show-hall floors and similar were taken into account. Again, with the entire train stopped on the grade (photo op), and 12-powered-axles ready to rock, we could walk that train away from standing-start on graphite'd rails with zero observable wheelslip...

NB in such "train show" conditions, you get to go head-to-head with actual observable hanging-in-the-air dust and grot, and you get to see many layouts under the same conditions, all trying their preferred "solution"...
...the graphite layouts just kept running, whereas the "wet treatment" layouts just gave the dust/dirt/grot a wet rail surface to stick-to, cake/crust/gum up, and fail-again within minutes...

NB When the layout was sold, inc trains, 
over 10 years and some 1000s of kilometres of exhibition-touring later,
the new owner, without a trace of sarcasm, thanked the owner for "replacing all the wheels in the MDC cars with new"... (Hint: They were the original wheels, the exclusive-use-on-graphite from out-of-box Day1-onward meant that the originally-supplied-wheels were visually clean, hresh, not caked with accumulated dust/dirt/crud, and generally "clean as a whistle"...)

I've said it before, and I'll say it again,
- if your locos are only just pulling the grade now,
(and I'd be more concerned about mech-overload/damage than wheelslip under such sustained-ops!)
then expect some initial wheelslip as the graphite is spread around the layout
(It will "even out" after a few laps, and the excess graphite is spread/distributed down to "graphene-thickness" levels)

- but if your trains are configured with appropriate torque/power to "pull the grade without exces strain" in the first instance, then graphite will be mechanically "invisible", while electrically amazing...

...and again, if it's "just a dead-loss" for your given application,
(Your layout, your trains, your call),

a decent PECO track rubber clean makes "the graphite experiment" completely reversible with zero mechanical/chemical/electrical risk...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr