Get an Engineer

Having watched a fair amount of HGTV and seen the idiot stuff that homeowners have done on their own, you might want to find yourself an engineer to take a look at what you want to do. No idea how to do that unless it is a structural engineer, so maybe try the contractor section at Lowes or one of it's relations.

Not implying you are an idiot Jeff. But having owned 5 houses from newly built to close to 80 yrs old I have seen some really weird stuff and it is best to be safer then sorry. If John Allen's experience is any indicator your house won't fall in any time soon. Story was that he took out most of the support poles or whatever held his house up in CA and to get through the house it was best to walk along the walls in the LR because the center of the floor sagged. After he died and his house burned a few months later the floor did cave in.

Jack

DON'T DO IT DUDE!!!! It may

DON'T DO IT DUDE!!!!

It may not be what it is supporting but also there probably is a deeper footing below it to support what it is supporting. 

I would lean towards; I thought about it but did not do it.

Than

I thought it was a good idea honey, i'll get an estimate for the repair... 

@ Jackh

I'm planning on talking to the contractor who did my parents home but will do the work myself.  I'm more just looking to see if others have completed similar projects so as to be educated with more than just whatever it is he may tell me about it.  Thanks. 

don't let the tail

wag the dog. Just design a layout that lets your house exist in peace(and in one piece) . No wonder folks think model railroaders are weird :> )......DaveB

Getting an engineer is important,,,,

a breakman, not so good.

Nick

@ Cadmaster

There are footings underneath each column - 2 foot deep or thereabouts.  They were poured with the footers for the walls.  A week later the contractor set the sill plates, the beam and the columns in place and poured the floor. I know this as the house was built in 2000, and it was me that had it built.   I fully plan to excavate thru the floor and set a footing for the new column location.   

I suppose I should have mentioned that even though the current column is encased in concrete at the foot from when the floor was poured, the plan is to set the new column,  then chip away the floor to expose the foot of the column, remove it, then back fill the resulting hole with fresh concrete.  I will then set a new column in place that will now rest on the floor. There will still be a footer underneath, just a bit more concrete between it and the column.   

So, the original  location will still have a column in place the vast majority of the time. But, the beauty is it should now be removable for that 4-6 hours of op sessions and if  necessary from time to time during the construction of the layout.  The addition of the steel plates is just my "peace of mind" for when the column is not in place.  Additional support based on my parents experience.  Just looking for tidbits of info if others have done this also. 

In John Allens instance as outlined by Jackh, he completely removed the columns.  I look to move one column 31", not completely remove it.  The other 2 columns will be undisturbed.  There will still be support 99.%+  of the hours the house will be standing from here to who knows when, but this will allow for unobstructed train ops 5-6 hours a month at some point down the road.  Knowing how this worked out for my parents home over an 8 foot span without additional direct support I fully expect there to be no issues.  I absolutely will  speak to professionals on this.  Like I said, just looking for tidbits.  

So you know what the

So you know what the conductor tells the engineer right.

Forwards and backwards that's all your paid to do. No thought required, I'll tell you when to start and when to stop.

Engineer it

What DaveB said.

That said, the change sounds possible, but the only way to determine the correct parameters for the steel bridge plates is to run calculations based on the bending forces applied to the center of span given the size of the laminated beam and the weight of the house above. The comment about footings also is spot on. Even if the floor is concrete, for the existing post, there could be a caisson below the slab that you can't see. You need a qualified engineer. An answer from this forum can only be a guess that could result in a spectacular failure.

It sounds like you are planning to DIY the job and not pull a permit. Doing it unpermitted adds a downstream complication for you or your heirs when it comes time to sell the house. It can reduce the appraised value or reduce the pool of buyers to those who will buy subject to an unpermitted modification and accept the risk of structural failure. Depending on market conditions, to satisfy the buyer or their lender, you or your heirs may have to "undo" the modification at significant cost and under the time pressure of an escrow.

@ patentwriter

I hadn't thought about a permit and the future ramifications of what you outlined.   I'm a rather handy guy which is why I can DIY most projects. I will most assuredly pose this to the pros I talk to.  This is precisely why I put this out here in the first place.  Thanks. 

I'd move it...

I'd move it. At least, I'd probably move it. I'd have to see exactly what is going on above before deciding for sure. You will need a new footer at the new location, which you've already noted. Construction aint rocket surgery. You just need to hold the house up. I've done worse. Talk to somebody that does construction. I mean actually swings a hammer, not sits at a computer, and has built houses. You will get a good answer from him, others, not so much. I almost moved one in my basement, but then it wound up holding up part of my layout, so now its performing an important task and gets to stay.  If you do move it, and do it right, you won't need to keep putting the old one back up. 

Randy 

Design vs. structure

Consider posting the layout design for comment before taking on a structural project of much more consequence.  Some ideas might turn up that would save a lot of time and effort.

Things that could go wrong -- consider:

1. the column sits on its own footing-  relocate it without that in consideration and it will sink.

2. the column is a direct support of (not only the beam, but also) something directly above.  Remove it and the structure will sag.

3. the beam is designed for the load and length that is present now.  Move it and the beam may fail  entirely.

In ANY of these cases, you'll likely spend THOUSANDS of dollars  for this (minor) modification of the floor plan.  You will spend it now... or later.  But there is plenty to examine before you Touch this!

It has been advised above.. get an engineer...  Don't trifle there!   I'd suggest  a channel to support the beam, not a flat plate... channels are better at resisting twisting, and if you want to do something, do a bit More than expected .

(oh, Randy... I've seen plenty of hammer swingers who should stick to demo!)

Remember my rule of thumb:  In Every Remodel Project is an Unexpected Surprise!

(I have a similar project in my future... my columns are slowly corroding... but a direct replacement is what I have in mind... can't wait to see the surprises in store there!)

Without knowing the design of

Without knowing the design of the house and it”s structure and understanding the point loads and the way all the loads transfer down to the beam and then down the columns it is impossible to say if this is safe or not.

I have 4 columns holding up my main beam.  I have a number of secondary beams my main beam holds up.  I have various loads ranging from the main floor to the mezzanine that transfer in various was to the beam depending on where we are talking about.  I also have point loads and a bearing wall that transfer the weight of the roof to various locations on said beam.  

In several cases I could move the columns a bit here or there but one of them if moved by more then a few inches would cause all sorts of issues.  As it has a point load for my 2nd floor and two HUGE beams (actually bigger then the basement beam) that holds up my roof on it.  So in that spot about 1/4 of my complete roof load is resting on said column.  And unless you had the drawings and enough knowledge to understand how it all works together you would never know which column it is,  two of my other columns I could move one way but not the other.

I know all this because I did the cad drawings for my house working directly with the licensed engine and architect to work out the loading and the locations.  But even “knowing” all of this there is no way on gods green earth I would move any of this columns without a sealed letter or drawing saying it was ok from an engineer that had recalculated everything in the whole house.  It is just to dangerous.  And the fact that it was built in 2000 or later makes it worse not better.  In the old days we used solid wood and basically rule of them Engineering that resulted in huge safety margins as you never could predict the load a 2x12 could handle before breaking all that well as different trees grew differently.  Now of days with engineer lumber we prett much know the max load so we design for a spicific level of margin.  

Remember that mess decades ago when multiple levels of a hotel pancaked was caused by someone that thought they knew the structure and how it’s loads transferred approved a “minor” change and it worked until the load hit a higher then normal level and promptly failed killing and injuring a lot of people,

As my father would tell his customers when they did not want him to fix there car “well it is up to you, but I thought your wife and kids drove in this car”.

So I say “it is up to you, but I thought you and your family lived in that house”

.-Doug M

Probably Doable BUT get a PE Involved

Jeff

I moved a lally column in a previous house, but I had calculations done by a local licensed PE before I did it.  Your move sounds doable, its not like you are trying to remove it.  Just make sure you get a professional engineer to provide calculations to support your new location (pun intended).  You should be able to find a local engineering firm who would provide this service for a reasonable fee.  If you need to find one, call one of the custom home builders in your area as they would use engineering services for most of their design work if its not a stock plan.  Once you have it properly designed and properly installed you should not need to even use the current column at all.

Craig

Basement column

At the end of the day, I think it would be easier and more cost effective to modify your layout design to fit the existing space, rather than make substantial structural modifications to the house.

Joe S.

Sounds very possible - I

Sounds very possible - I would engage a PE, have them run the calcs then draw it up and stamp/seal it. Very cheap insurance.....

Pulling a permit adds value only in avoiding a potential issue downstream, that issue is largely dependent upon where you are. If it were me and I was still on the west coast I would swallow hard and pay the tax, er fee. Where I live now, not likely.

Get a proper design regardless, the plan could likely be closer to what you described from your parents house - plates of sufficient strength and length to span the load plus safety factor. Loads on those beams can be a bit more dynamic than many realize

save some $$$

Jeff,

 Save your self some money just wrap the post in your preferred building material, and turn it into a tall building it'll be cheaper in the long run and less of hassle in the long run.

Charlie

A couple more questions

I wouldn't be totally scared to death doing this but, as others have expressed, have an engineer look at what you intend do first, he might have some better ideas.  I assume this is a single story home, you didn't say.  Also, is there a load bearing wall over the post you want to move?  How much snow load is on your roof during the winter?

Moving this post, as you realize , will redistribute the load on the beam.  Who knows what over load this size beam was designed for.  A modified track plan would sure be a lot easier in so many ways.  Best wishes.

House Call

I’m thinking Doctor rather than Engineer. 

Let me get this straight, you’re going to mess with the structural integrity of your home for your model railroad?

There must be a twelve step group for this 

Doctor in the House?

It sounds like you're gonna need a doctor for your house.

Yuk Yuk. Don't mind me. I know nothing, nothing!

A serious structural engineer

A serious structural engineer wouldn't give a remote diagnosis.

You need to do a structural analysis to check if it work and to design the measures needed to do it.

What das the basement ceiling's structural elements say to the change of span. What kind of structure is it?

It is not just removing the beam and columns and erect them in the new location. Before removing them you need to support the slab above close to the old location. Only than you can take out the beam and columns and re-erect them. After that you can remove the temporary supports.

All that can only be done if it is possible at all. As other said engaging a structural engineer should be the first step.
Regards, Volker

No it is not a good idea to

Too Many Doomsayers

Jeff- don't listen to the doomsayers who think that your house is going to fall in!  This is very doable and it happens all the time with remodels for many reasons- especially to fit in pool tables, ping pong tables, home theaters, etc. in basement areas.  Common sense would say you leave the existing column in place until the new column and lap plates are installed.  I read your description and the offending column is in your aisle, so disguising it as a structure isn't in play.  Just get a PE to do the proper analysis and you won't have any issues.

Craig

As others have said, get an

As others have said, get an engineer to check your plan before you do it. You could put all sorts of not-designed-for shear loads into your beam if you move the column as you describe. This in turn can induce twisting forces internal to the beam, which it may not be designed to handle over the long term.

Houses are way over designed for the typical loading they see most days, because it's the extreme cases they have to be able to handle. If you're in an area that gets snow, the structure has to handle tons of snow on the roof. High winds is also an outlier impact, but one that the house must be able to resist. It's not just the weight of the house above that the basement structural components must deal with; it's the "live loads" like wind, snow, rain, people and so forth that must be supported, and those loads re likely significantly higher than the dead load of the house mass. It may be years before those extremes manifest themselves, but they will someday.

Most contractors can give you a good sense of the possible, but don't rely on their experience to tell you that your approach is acceptable. Get an engineer, because that's what their expertise and training is all about. It's money well spent. Besides, you'll probably be required to get their signoff before you'll be issued a permit anyway.