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Plastic Pellet covered hopper options (HO, late 1960s) Locos and rolling stock
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Frequent poster 923 posts Yannis Frequent poster 923 posts
Yannis

Hi all,

I have been doing some reading for rolling stock associated with a plastics factory i am planning/considering for my layout.

From what i have seen Bachmann does offer an ACF centerflow 4-bay covered hopper with the round roof hatches suitable for plastic pellets.

My question is if this car is a reasonable base for a late 1960s (1968 to 1970) covered hopper hauling plastic pellets to a plastics (molding) factory.

Looking forward to your feedback and many thanks in advance for your replies. If there are any other readily available options for suitable covered hoppers for plastic pellets back in the late 60s feel free to chime in.

Yannis

PS. Since we are talking about rolling stock for a plastics factory, i suppose for tank cars hauling resins and other chemicals any (insulated/chemical) tank car will do right?

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blindog10 Prolific poster 3,327 posts
blindog10

pellet cars and tank cars

If memory serves the Bachmann 4-bay is an early ACF 5250cf Center Flow and pretty much a copy of the old Athearn model. You'll want the private owner road names, mostly ACFX and SHPX reporting marks because RR-owned 5250s were not used for plastic pellets. Also, some of the smaller Center Flows like the early cylindricals made by Atlas (3510cf 3-bays and 3950 6-bays) and the 4650cf 3-bays made by Atlas and Intermountain were used for pellets and resins. Again, look at the reporting marks or in a few cases the lettering and heralds give away the contents. The above is written assuming HO scale but since I think Bachmann does the 5250 Center Flow in N and Atlas also did their Center Flows in N the info works too. Atlas's N-scale 5250 Center Flow, however, is the mid '70s version, and tgey don't do that one in HO. Tank cars are much more specialized that you assume. Athearn's "chemical tank" isn't. It hauls pressurized gases like propane/LPG and anhydrous ammonia. The more recent and more accurate Atlas and Kadee models of the same type of car haul the same. Some feedstocks for plastics are carried in tank cars, like styrene monomer and methylene diisocyanate, but those go in bigger cars. Insulated tanks were not as common in the '60s. The prototype for the Atlas. 23500g insulated tank went into production around 1968 and the Walthers 23500g Funnel Flow in 1970. Scott Chatfield
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jimfitch Prolific poster 5,288 posts
jimfitch

I believe Bachmans 4-bay

I believe Bachmans 4-bay covered hopper is basically the same as Athearn's 5250 4-bay blue box covered hopper.  I am not sure who copied who on that one.

Here is some plastic pellet hopper info I gleaned the Atlas Rescue Forum:

 

"The early Plastic Pellet hoppers were the GATC Dry Flow Chem cars, followed in the early 1960's by the Pullman 3500's and the ACF Cylindrical 3500's. In 1965 ACF introduced the 5250 with the 5031 outlet, which became the industry standard for years.

In the later 1970's the Plastics producers introduced linear low density resins, and the 5701 became the standard. North American had their 5750, and Pullman had the 5820 CF car with the Micromatic outlet. In 1985 Thrall introduced the 5800 CF car, marketed by Union Tank, which caused ACF to slightly modify their slope sheets to gain 100 cf of Capacity. Richmond also marketed a Foreign produced kit car, assembled in Texas, during the early 1980's in the 5800 cf size. Procor also produced a 5800 CF car in Canada generally similar to the Pullman design in the 1970s and 1980's. In the 1990's the National Steel Car design became popular first as a 263K car and later as a 286K car.

In plastic, the Atlas 3500 is offered in Plastic Company paint schemes, but with Gravity outlets, Athearn has the late 1960's design 5250, Atlas has both the 5701 and the 5800 versions, and Walther's has the NSC car. Both the Pullman 5820 and the Richmond car were offered in Brass. But other than a crude resin model of the North American design offered in the 1980's and the Eastern Car Dry Flow Chem Car Kit bash, no other plastic resin or pellet cars have been offered. Maybe its the bland gray paint jobs, and the fact they mostly look similar which is probably keeping Manufacturers from jumping in."

 

The Athearn and Bachman 5250 are both dated models but do fit the 1960's time frame.  Many have been lobbying model train manufacturers for a high fidelity version on the order of Athearn Genesis or Exactrail level of detail and fidelity.  Hopefully we will see those done in the near future.

.

Jim Fitch
northern VA
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David Husman dave1905 MRH Author 9,866 posts
David Husman dave1905

Resin

I would think liquid resin wouldn't be shipped by boxcar because of shelf life, I would think it would be shipped in palletized tanks.  Resin would be more for fiberglas products and pellets for injection molding.  Also powdered resins were shipped by covered hopper.  Most of my experience was with pellet customers, none of the pellet customers got tank cars.

Dave Husman

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blindog10 Prolific poster 3,327 posts
blindog10

pellets and resins

Thermoplastics are usually shipped as pellets, and every moulding company (as mentioned by the original poster) I've had experience with just got pellets. However, my professional experience starts in the early '80s, and the plastics business was evolving quickly in the '60s and '70s. Styrene has been in use since the '40s but the highest volume plastics today weren't common or even in use yet in 1968. While polyethylene (plastic wraps, etc) was invented in the '30, it didn't find a market until the late '60s. Polypropylene (plastic milk and soda bottles) was invented in the '50s but wasn't used commercially until the mid '70s. Those are the two plastics that make up the bulk of the pellet hopper shipments since 1975 and are the reason for the 5701cf and larger pellet hoppers. Dry resins are usually used in multi-part thermoset plastics and are denser than pellets, so they are shipped in smaller cars. Liquid resins are shipped in tank cars or in palletized tanks or bladders and shipped in boxcars. Before someone asks, the RR-owned CF5250s were grain hoppers, not pellet hoppers, so they had different hatches and gates. Scott Chatfield
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Yannis Frequent poster 923 posts
Yannis

Scott, Jim and Dave many

Scott, Jim and Dave many thanks for the detailed info!

So the Bachmann 5250 ACF 56' is good to go. I can potentially add to the mix some Atlas 3510cf ACF and the 6 Bay 3950cf Cylindrical ACF by Atlas again. If i understand it correctly the 5250 car was seen in much higher numbers comparatively to the 3510 and/or the 3950cf 6-bay in the late sixties right?

With respect to the Atlas 3510cf and the 6-bay 3950cf one, I presume that these are on the links below?

https://shop.atlasrr.com/c-402-h112.aspx

https://shop.atlasrr.com/p-51019-ho-6-bay-cylindrical-hopper-texas-pacific-710401.aspx

I also saw this on Atlas site, with a mention that it was used for plastics

https://shop.atlasrr.com/p-51003-ho-3-bay-cylindrical-hopper-el-rexene-plastics-60787.aspx

 Is this last car, the 4650cf 3-bay that Scott mentioned?

Dave: thanks for the pointer about tank cars! Maybe it makes more sense to have a plant specializing in injection molding instead of fiberglass / resins etc. I would imagine though some sort of chemicals to be needed inbound for a plastics plant in addition to pellets, not?

 

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blindog10 Prolific poster 3,327 posts
blindog10

different Center Flows

That El Rexene model by Atlas is a 3510. The 3510 and 3950 which preceded it are "cylindrical" Center Flows, ACF's original carbody design. The 4650, 5250, 5701 etc are "hi-cube" Center Flows (ACF's term). Cylindrical Center Flows were only built for about five years before being superceded by the hi-cubes. If you know what the Bachmann 5250 looks like you know the basic shape of the hi-cube Center Flow. Please keep in mind that "hi-cube" Center Flows are not truly high-cube freight cars since they are not overheight. That's just what ACF called them. I have their sales literature. As for tank cars going to a moulding company that just makes plastic parts, I suppose it could happen but I can't point you to such a place off the top of my head. I can think of a couple food bottling plants that made their own bottles and also got tank cars of corn syrup and vegetable oils, but they were much newer operations (1990s and later). Not in service in 1968. Plastic bottles for foodstuffs were just coming into use then, and as far as I know that's really a post-1975 thing. I think plastic bottles for soda are post-1980 even. I was still buying quarts of soda in glass bottles in 1980. Scott Chatfield
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blindog10 Prolific poster 3,327 posts
blindog10

blow vs injection moulding

Plastic bottles and other large round plastic things are usually made by blow moulding. Plastic parts like our choo-choos are injection moulded. Those are the two most common plastic moulding processes. But the plants that do each generally look the same from the outside. The blow moulder might have a much larger finished product warehouse, because one of those machines can fill a trailer or boxcar with bottles in a hurry. Scott Chatfield
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Yannis Frequent poster 923 posts
Yannis

Many thanks!!!

As usual, tons of great info!

I ll be getting a mix of 3510cf , 3950cf Atlas cylindrical ACF's with a few Bachmann 5250cf cars for the (injection) molding plant i am planning! I am looking at a (fictional) plant making plastic components (aero-auto) and parts for other commercial applications (appliances etc). So pellets inbound in hoppers, products out by boxcars / trucks.

So covered hoppers and boxcars it is. Thank you very much for steering me away from tank cars.

Much appreciated help!

Yannis

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Yannis Frequent poster 923 posts
Yannis

Location & Roadnames?

Ok i got lost a bit here while reading / researching. I found several options for roadnames on the cars, such as

El-Rexene Plastics, Teneco Plastics, Schauffer Plastics, Shell plastics, Columbian Plastics, Borden Chemical, Trona Chemicals, Dupont...

Are these all valid options for plastic pellets for an industry in the west-coast?

I tried to look into covered hoppers in California (for plastics) and came up short so far.

EDIT: I suppose all the afforementioned "private" labels on the hoppers are indicating the company that produces the pellets right?

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blindog10 Prolific poster 3,327 posts
blindog10

if it says "plastics"....

Trona ships trona (a mineral) and Borden ships cows. Or maybe cow chips. Heh heh. Actually I think Borden ships minerals too. But the others should be good. And any plain grey ACFX or SHPX cars will do. You can never have too many plain grey covered hoppers in the modern era. Scott Chatfield
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blindog10 Prolific poster 3,327 posts
blindog10

operations at a moulding plant

Earlier plants had silos to store pellets and off-loaded the cars fairly quickly. But at some point around 1970 users figured out it was easier, cleaner, and cheaper to leave the product in the cars and suck it out as needed. Now the cars can sit on the siding for weeks. Since they generally use several grades of pellets they might have several cars on hand at all times. But they don't all get emptied at the same time, so when one does run out the railroad switch job comes in and digs that car out of the string and drops a full one off. Depending on how their pneumatichandling system is set up, cars with grade "b" (whatever) might always have to go in the second position. So all the cars above it (closer to the turnout) will have to have their unloading hoses disconnected before being moved. This usually causes some pellets to be splilled, so the ground around your unloading spots should have a fine cover of a rainbow of pellets. Starting in the '90s the industry started to be concerned about these little spills so stickers promoting"Operation Clean Sweep" appeared on pellet hoppers. But that's not your problem in 1968-1970. Scott Chatfield
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Yannis Frequent poster 923 posts
Yannis

Thanks Scott!

Following some further reading, it seems that some of these "plastics" cars are indeed carrying pellets but the name on the car is actually the "receiver's" name aka the molding company and not the producer of the pellets (a chemical company).

So maybe i should be looking at any 3510/5250 etc... car to repaint for my own firm's label in addition to some cars from "chemicals" companies.

Did i understand this correctly?

 

PS. Apologies for the seemingly very basic questions at some points.

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blindog10 Prolific poster 3,327 posts
blindog10

rolling billboards

While there might be exceptions, as a rule the cars are painted for the producer of the plastics and minerals, not the consumers. A little digging on the net should turn up info on these products and their producers, which has changed over the years. Many of the plastics are produced at facilities on the Gulf Coast in Louisiana and Texas. In your timeframe it was not uncommon for a 3-bay hopper to be shipped with a different grade or color of plastic in each bay. If you think about it that's a logistical nightmare for the producers, so by the '80s it became standard procedure for the producer to fill up several cars (maybe several dozens) and send them to a SIT (Storage In Transit) yard to wait for a consumer to order that grade if plastic. SIT yards hold hundreds of loaded pellet hoppers. Of course now pellet hoppers are just rolling storage bins and advertising a particular brand of plastic on the outside might cause confusion since it's unlikely to be carrying that actual product. But circa 1970 the orders were customized and it was quire likely that whatever was advertised on the outside of the car is what was in the car.
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RSeiler MRH Author 3,754 posts
RSeiler

Pellets...

If your facility purchases its plastic pellets from the pellet manufacturer on my layout and ships them via rail you're going to get them mostly in plain grey MOHX covered hoppers.  

Randy

Randy

Cincinnati West -  B&O/PC  Summer 1975

http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/17997
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Yannis Frequent poster 923 posts
Yannis

Producer of the plastics

Producer of the plastics means producer of the pellets right?

I got possibly a bit confused by reading that some (all?) of the companies i mentioned did produce plastic products (using pellets), so i thought that maybe the cars are leased/owned by molding companies instead of pellet-producing companies.

Looking at the reporting marks/numbers of several cars in the 60s, i haven't seen a single example yet spotted in California...wierd. I have seen plain-gray plastic pellet hoppers in California but in modern times.

As you can imagine i got a few options for road-names and i want to avoid having a foobie for my era/location. (El-Rexene and Tenneco in 3510cf, Shell Plastics for the 5250cf Bachmann car, and Dupont, Columbian etc.. for using microscale decals to repaint other cars.

Scott many thanks for the precious info on both the hoppers and the molding companies procedures/practices. It is much appreciated!!!

Randy: Is that a freelance industry? I could not find your reporting mark.

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RSeiler MRH Author 3,754 posts
RSeiler

MOHX

MOHX is Monsanto. So is MCHX, MLSX, MOTU, MONX, MONU and MCPX.  I model the Monsanto plant in Addyston, Ohio in 1975.  They manufactured ABS plastic pellets, mostly for the auto industry at that time. 

Randy

Randy

Cincinnati West -  B&O/PC  Summer 1975

http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/17997
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BOK Prolific poster 1,121 posts
BOK

Attached is a photo from the

​Attached is a photo from the 60s showing smaller, plastics hoppers on a Minneapolis Northfield and Southern Hi Line job.

By the time I was working for Progressive Rail and we leased this line I was engineer/manager and we recieved several plain, gray, plastics hoppers for three different customers. 

Enjoy,   

Barry               

76430(2).jpg 
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jimfitch Prolific poster 5,288 posts
jimfitch

Back in the late 1990's, I

Back in the late 1990's, I did some environmental work in Springfield MA at the Monstanto plant there.  There were lots of tank cars there I do remember and a few covered hoppers.  I even saw a tank car there which resembled the Athearn 62' tank car - an older type.  I didn't write down the reporting marks but most everything was plain jane.

.

Jim Fitch
northern VA
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Yannis Frequent poster 923 posts
Yannis

Barry thanks for the photo.

Barry thanks for the photo. These are Dupont Alathon cars from what i can see right?

I did find some late sixties photos of such cars but they are 3-bay ACF (non-cylindrical) ones.

Randy many thanks for the info i ll have that in mind!

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blindog10 Prolific poster 3,327 posts
blindog10

that's a late '70s photo

Even though the DuPont Alathon hoppers look brand new, the bright blue "THE ROCK" boxcar next to the engines places this photo from 1975 into 1980. The late '70s was a colorful time to model! Scott Chatfield
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Yannis Frequent poster 923 posts
Yannis

Good catch!

Ok, i think i am almost up to speed with your considerable help and several hours of reading / looking at pictures of hoppers. Here are some of my findings if i understood them correctly.

The 5250cf (Bachmann) is fine as a basis (Shell Plastics car ok for 1968-1970 era from photos i have seen).

I found 1968-1970 photos of only  3-bay ACF cars for Dupont Alathon (cars 36134, etc...). I suppose that these are indeed ACF 4650 (i can only make the CAPT 154000 on the side of the car...).

And also several late sixties cases of other chemicals/plastics hoppers either in 3510, 4650 and 5250 variations.

For the 4650cf car (if that is indeed the Dupont car i mentioned), Atlas and Intermountain make something similar, yet the Accurail 4600 car with some mods looks like it has the same basic shape/size.  I mean if i change/add 6 round hatches on the roof instead of the stock grain doors it looks like the Atlas car. I am i missing something here?

EDIT: Ok i read that the 4650 has different basic shape dimensions compared to the 4600 so... the Accurail might be a no-go.

From what i see, i need to flatten-out the three ribs (?) on the top of the sides of the car in order to match the Dupont car that has a flat-panel/side transition there. The Atlas 4650 has the same issue as well, in needing this area flattened-out/modified. Intermountain's 4650 is different though, matching the prototype at this spot on some models, being the same as Atlas/Accurail on some others.

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blindog10 Prolific poster 3,327 posts
blindog10

heh heh heh welcome to the dark side

Slippery slope, isn't it? But we have cookies at the bottom! You've found the primary visual difference between pre-1971 and post-1971 hi-cube Center Flows. The smooth vs. beaded side plate (again, ACF's terms). Most pre-1971s also had that angle iron welded to the curved sides (some had two). Atlas and Intermountain offer both versions and have been pretty good about putting the right paint jobs on each. You obviously want the pre-1971 versions only. But you have to keep an eye on paint job clues to avoid buying a post-1971 repaint. You also stumbled onto some of the rarest of Center Flows, the 77-ton Alathons. Did you notice the plain bearing trucks? Almost all hi-cube Center Flows are 100-ton cars riding on roller bearing trucks (mandated on all new cars in 1968, regardless of weight). This group of Alathons are CF4460s, a lower version of the CF4650. The CF4600 is also lower than the 4650, but it's also longer. There are no models of 4460s, and because of their proportions it's not easy to kitbash one either. Just use a 4650 and if anyone notices distract them with a cookie. Oh yeah, you can find the cookies in the cookie jar in your kitchen. Or maybe your pantry. You've earned one. Tell your wife Blind Dog says it's okay. Scott Chatfield
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Yannis Frequent poster 923 posts
Yannis

Thanks Scott!!

Indeed it is a steep learning curve sometimes but it is worth it. Researching and learning is (imho) half the fun.

Hm, i might leavy the 4460cfs for the future then and focus on 5250 and 3510 for which i have found 1968-1971 photos.

I have found various pre-1971 schemes for 5250 and for 3510, but up to now i have been unable to find anything related to the El-Rexene 3510 car that Atlas is bringing out nor the Shell and Tenneco cars from the same series, that i have posted earlier. I might just take the leap of faith and go for them, the only El-Rexene car photo i have seen is of hi-cubes in post 1971.

The Bachman 5250 (Shell) will be needing new decals for the side logos.

 

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George Sinos gsinos Prolific poster 1,170 posts
George Sinos gsinos

I'm feeling more

I'm feeling more philosophical than prototypical this morning.

This is a very interesting thread, and extremely valuable for those that are trying to get the time frame just right.

I've found it very interesting from a slightly different viewpoint.  I have 3 places to deliver covered hoppers on my small layout: a plastic container manufacturer, a novelty food producer and a grain mill.  The era is generally modern, in that I eschew roofwalks. Pretty broad by most accounts.

If I were to stick to prototype they would all take covered hoppers, painted gray, with little differences in type and detail that would be only noticed by myself or some other model railroaders.

So, among the prototypical gray covered hoppers are mixed those with placards and markings that clearly say "plastics" for the container maker. Those destined for the food processor may be labelled with Cargill, Domino Sugar or similar makings. And the grain mill receives a number of cars labelled for a variety of mid-western grain elevators.

Not strictly prototypical, but much more variety for visitors. Also a visual help for the more casual folks to perhaps, quickly grasp that this is a transportation system with a goal of delivering products.

So, as we say in other discussions, having a goal for your railroad and an audience in mind will guide you in your attempt at having fun.

gs
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