Help & CV’s

This has been discussed somewhat in the past and you have stated a very compelling reason to at least give slower speeds a try. I don’t use DecoderPro so must constantly go back to the manuals for each decoder type to look up th cv’s for each and how to change the (another reason to standardize decoder choice I realize). Is top speed a standard cv?

What is good for you?

And do these differ between engines?

One thing I would add is the substantial addition of weight to my freight cars has really enhanced how they behave when coupling or drawing the slack out. My engines are far too strong so additional weight forces me to think ahead before pulling a cut up the grade. A drawback is when these heavy free rolling cars are left on a slight grad so some thought needs to be put into train brakes. N scale guys add springs to the wheelsets for added friction. Any thoughts on this as well?

Yep, exactly

Counterpoint

Just remember that "prototypical" does not always mean "slow".

Railroads do operate trains at 50-60-70 mph, passenger trains even faster and if you are modeling the steam era it will operate faster than a modern day line in most cases.

Running slow,  It takes over

Running slow,  It takes over 7 minutes and up to 10 minutes to run from one end of my layout to the other.  After moveing up or down along the long transition from the top level to the lower level you can be online for 15 to 20 minutes just getting from the top yard to the lower yard on a simple transfer run.  If you have a meet or need to clear the main that can add another 5 to 10 minutes.  

In total you can easly have a run on my layout from 20 to 30 minutes,  Complete your work/job then return for another 20 to 30 minutes of run time.   Avg time spent on most jobs for my layout is an hour and 15 minutes.  Some jobs need less time and a few others need more.  Run slow and take your time, this is not a race.  Take advantege of the long runs that are avaliable to you on this layout.  Layout is designed not to be a 1 trick pony and get done in under 45  minutes.

Joe and Joe, I like what your

Joe and Joe, I like what your saying. I have been playing around with speed matching and setting up up my roster to certain speeds. I have a fairly long main and dropping the max speed to 25 I think would be hard on the crew, but I do like the idea of throttling them back some. I think that I am going to evaluate trains and look at tops speed of 50 mph for main line, 30 for locals and I like your 10 mph for yards. 

Selective compression of speed?

To Joe A's point, though, once he forced things slower, he got used to the slower speeds. Is there a place for selective compression of speed? We selectively compress other things, why not speed — make it 35-45-55 to represent 50-60-70? You get ~25% more layout doing this ... for no cost!

Again, what’s the rush? Selectively compress the speed a bit to make the fun last longer.

Agree 100%

Absolutely agree with all the points made here about slow speed ops - it isn't a race.

I am lucky in that steam short lines never ran that fast anyway, but if a train gets over 25mph then we all break out into a sweat and the brakes go on .

As said by all - it makes the layout seem HUGE .....

Rob Clark

 

Consistency

​The critical point is, what is the expectation of the session?  If its just you switching, you can take 6 operating sessions to move a car 3 feet if you like.  On the other hand if there are more operators, more dependencies and more trains, then maintaining a consistent flow of the trains is critical.

​On my sessions I tell everybody about what work they will be doing.  If you are a road job, you will handle a couple passenger trains and a couple freights.  If a road crew takes half the session to operate one freight train, he may be having great fun, but the yard will be sitting around with nothing to do, as will the switchers that are supposed to make connection with those cars and spot them at industry.

​A friend of mine has a large layout and he quite often has urge people running passenger trains to run faster to maintain schedule.  He is modeling a multiple main track line where the prototype operated over 70 mph. When one of the "all things that creepeth and crawleth" operators runs a first class train at 20 mph, it actually reduces the operation because things start to fall behind.

​One thing that will screw up the local operation more than anything else is inconsistent switching times.  If one person takes 1 hour to switch the various industries and somebody else takes 2 hours, that can jack up an operating session.

​I'm not saying to run the throttle up against the post all the time, but to operate at a speed that is proportional to the pace of the session.  If I have a job that the first part of the session (about 80 mins) switches one area (6-8 cars)  and then 2nd half of the session (about 80 mins) switches a branch (another 6-8 cars) and the operator spends the entire session switching the first area, then they have cheated themselves out of the opportunity to switch the second area and have jacked up the yard, because they will end up with a track of cars they had planned on leaving.

​All things in moderation.

Fun

​New motto for your masthead :  "Waiting is fun!"

Relative speeds

Once again the speed needs to be consistent with the vision of the layout.  Two of my friends model lines where passenger service is a major part of the operation.  The passenger trains need to operate relatively fast to capture the feel of the territory.  If every train operates at a slow speed, then there is no observable difference between a crack first class passenger train and drag freight.  If every train operates at a slow speed then there is little or no differentiation between speed restricted areas and the open main track.

If you are modeling one town or an ISL, this whole discussion is moot.  It doesn't matter, you can go back to the magazines in the 1970's where people were trying to build engines where the speeds were measured in inches per hour.  But if you are trying to differentiate classes of service then there can legitimately need to be a differentiation in the speed of the trains.

Quite frankly it really doesn't matter that much anyway.  Most layouts the runs are so short that whether you run at 40 mph or 80 mph the distance between stations is less than a minute

I see a Reverse Running column being written....

By someone here - I think either of the Joe's could do it.

Why them?

​Why them?  Reverse running is supposed to be OPPOSITE the prevailing feeling.  So far in the thread there is only one person arguing against the hypothesis.

That's person is you, right?

Write it up and make some modeling money!

"Once again the speed needs to be consistent with the vision"

Agreed, Dave.

We keep telling people "it's your hobby do what you want" and then along comes another pile on to tell people they are doing it all wrong. Slower does not equal more fun. Doing what you enjoy in the hobby equals more fun.

Think about the wear and tear

Think about the wear and tear you will save on you DCC cab knob when running at slower speeds.

Then again it is more fun to run your Toy Trains at Lionel O-27 speed.  All out Full Power Warp Speed!

I agree with Dave on this.

I agree with Dave on this. Depending on the area trains traveled fast even if they were coal trains. I know that is shocking to many that think they spent their entire time clanking along at 20 mph. I recall reading about areas that the railroads put maximum speed signs up for some curves to prevent damage to track on the C&O. In one case their were three signs in close proximity to each other resticting them to 50 mph. Another thing to consider was the run from the Southern end of the state of Ohio to the great lakes. 160 car trains were sent out as many as 9 per day and they would make the run in fairly good time, not going to happen at 20 miles per hour. I wont post videos of the AGs on the Virginian blasting along toward tidewater but they were definately not going 20 miles per hour.

In some early days the railroad would run trains at slower speeds, think of the 2-10-10-2s that maxed at about 30 35 before damage to the rails and or locomotive happened but once more modern steam hit speeds went up. Instead of building more track run more trains faster over the same lines and you have the reason for the superpower engines.

Now there are also places a train would run at slower speeds than it was capable of. Think yard limits, cities where speed ordanances came into play, areas with sharp curves etc. Speeds need to match what is modeled instead of some arbitrary standard. If slow speeds are needed put up slow orders for bad track or another reason, it just needs to be as believeble as the rest of the railroad.

Inertia

We keep telling people "it's your hobby do what you want" and then along comes another pile on to tell people they are doing it all wrong.

Not so - It is every individuals hobby and they should do exactly what they want to fun - that's not up for question. However, here we just have an example of people saying "we tried this approach and it worked well so if you haven't tried it - give it a go".

As an additional (purely personal, I stress) observation - the physical dynamics of models (particularly steamers) means that as they go faster they look more toy like because they just don't have the inertia of the prototype.
This may not be relevant to some, but it is to me .

Rob Clark
 

Rob, I would say for your

Rob, I would say for your rail lines that is the case. You have a lightly built line set firmly in the drag era and use locomotives that would not be set up to run fast as a rule. If on the other hand you were building models that had the 20th century limited running between NY and Chicago and were pulling it with one of the streamlined hudsons you would have a horse of a different color.

Speed in my opinion needs to match what is modeled, and then it will look realistic.

The need fo speed

Rob - I don't think Joe's  original post was aimed at high speed passenger (or freight) ops, but was amore generic view which could well apply to people who inadvertently rush their ops.

However, while I do agree that a streamliner will not look so good running at 25-30 mph, I would contend that there is still a case for dropping the speed a little .....

Rob 

Slow streamliners...

This really doesn't have much of anything to do with the topic under discussion, but back in 2008 I rode the Coast Starlight home from the Anaheim NMRA convention (my first).

When going up what I believe is the Surf Line, particularly through Vandenberg AFB, we toddled along at 25mph or slower, gently rocking the whole way... Seemed to take forever to get through there.

So there's a prototype for it, but I agree - it didn't look or feel very good doing it.

Low speeds

I don't have a lot of article-writing time, so I'm certainly not arguing this point in order to promote that I should be the one writing a Reverse Running.  However, the whole point of that column seems to be to present a view that's contrary not just with the thinking expressed in one post, but what appears to be common thought in the hobby as a whole.

Based on what I've seen in person and on YouTube, operating at prototypical speeds is most definitely not the mainstream view in this hobby.  I do understand what you're saying, that 25mph isn't accurate for all situations. Didn't intend to imply it was.  I model a regional railroad that wasn't exactly known for high speeds, and I assume that people take that into consideration when they read my views so I don't have to qualify every statement with "(unless you're modeling a class 1 mainline)".  Limiting top speed is one more consideration in choosing a prototype if our space is more limited.

I don't see anywhere that I or anyone else promoting this view said that anyone else is "doing it all wrong".  Why go there?  I was simply stating what I have found I enjoy, and why, and encouraging others to consider it in case they might enjoy it as well.

Seems like there can be a tendency in this hobby that when we discuss how to do things more prototypically, others take that as some kind of slam against those who are less concerned about accurately modeling that particular aspect of the prototype, as though we're bashing them, saying they're inferior modelers, etc.  That's never...never my point.  I'm in this hobby for my enjoyment, and I hope everyone else feels the same way about their own participation.  If something isn't for you, then ignore it and enjoy life.

Dave wrote: "​One thing that

Dave wrote: "​One thing that will screw up the local operation more than anything else is inconsistent switching times.  If one person takes 1 hour to switch the various industries and somebody else takes 2 hours, that can jack up an operating session."

That is probably one of the truest prototypical statements. I have worked as engineer with some of the sharpest conductors who could have things lined up and switched out effeciently in record time. And then I have worked with conductors who are basically "dumber than a box of rocks" and can screw up even a simple switch and drag things on forever.

The best example of this was a Peoria &Eastern, (Big Four, NYC/PC) third trick conductor, named Howard, I once worked with, as a switchman. This guy would consistently, line up eastbound cars in westbound trains and westbound cars in eastbound trains. No amount of convincing or arguing could change his mind and it was very frustrating to work with him. After completely messing up the yard we would go to lunch and take a short nap...oh around 0430 with the yard clerk tearing what little hair he had left out of his head trying to figure out where all cars were. Then we would go back to work, switch the rips, fuel track and line up the city jobs cars (amazingly correct). Just about that time the trainmaster would show up and express "early morning frustration in many colorful phrases" regarding Howard's great, night switching! We then spent the next two hours (at over time pay) straightening out the mess we had made overnight. The take away from this tale are two points: Not all conductors switch the same/right way (are the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree) and just, maybe, Howard was "dumb as a fox" because we always got overtime when we worked with him. In retrospect the word NO comes to mind because nobody could be that slow to understand that the mess he made could result in financial, reward. He just tried to do the best he could. 

Barry, looking out the window in a Minnesota snowstorm and thankful his days on the railroad are over.  

Not warp speed

By the way, just in case people think I am advocating operating at warp speed, not so.  

If you read my descriptions, a road crew runs about 4 trains per session, so that's allowing 40 min for each train to go a grand total of 60 feet or so (70 ft if you are a passenger train, woo hoo), maybe do one work event and a train meet.  That's not really setting the world on fire. An industry job spots 6-8 cars and pulls 6-8 cars per switching area and will generally work 2 switching areas.  No need to rush.

What I have tried to do is add activity.  I intentionally tried to model terminal to terminal, instead of just going from a staging yard to a staging yard.  A NWD train has to get its power from the ready track, bring it out of the engine facilities, negotiate with the switch engines to run up to the north end of the yard and get on the train.  A SWD train has to yard the train, take the power to the house, if they are coming back on another freight, they often have to turn the engine, then go back to the yard and get the next train. 

By the way, the way I came up with the number of trains to operate in a session was to take the engine mileage reporting in the 1895 annual report (broken down by engine number, by freight and passenger service) and divide it by the length of the road and 365 to get an average number of trains per day.  I then did the same calculation for the passenger trains and compared it to the scheduled trains.  It came out pretty close so I think my methodology was pretty good.  The number of trains shouldn't overwhelm either the dispatcher or the yards.

V=D/T

​I think part of the this whole aspect is how people perceive time and distance.  

V=D/T

​If the speed (V) is changed, some will perceive a change in distance (D) and others will perceive a change in time (T).

​On the other hand maybe its just because I spent countless days and nights staring at dispatching screens watching trains actually doing 50 mph slowly creep across the screen.  Maybe my impatience is a response after 35+ years of waiting for stuff to happen on a real railroad.