Some more Info

I'll start by posting a track plan:

Basically everything below the water heater is new plus the little engine servicing peninsula off the end of Coronita Creek Yard.

This is what I'm proposing for trains not on schedule:

- two trains on time - follow TT

- TT in effect for 1/2 hr. (this is fast time, approx. 4 mins. I know a TT is usually in effect for 12 hours but no one wants to wait that long!)

- 1/2 - 1 hr, the priority is:

   first class trains

   eastbound trains

   extras

- after 1 hr the engineer with the next closest crew call has priority.

NOTE: after 1 hr crews can collaborate in any useful fashion keeping in mind that there might be a third train that has priority over both of you.

Soooo... Any of this sound reasonable, or am I trying too trying to hard, or not hard enough, to make this work?

Harder than it has to be

Don't quite understand what the problem is.

If you are running on a schedule, why are you yelling looking for another train?

The way you work around not having a dispatcher is to have a realistic schedule.  The only reason you would have to wait 12 hours on a schedule is if you don't run the train at all.  What is causing the problem?

Your proposed priorities would be impossible to keep up with. 

You have the train doing the most work be the lowest priority train.  If the local that switches every town runs late, make it a 4th class train, then it has to stay out of everybody else's way and nobody waits for it.  Don't put another local in the inferior direction or don't put two opposing worker bees out there at the same time.  Arrange the schedule so you always have one worker bee and one through train with minimal switching out at any given time.

Thanks Dave

I sorta' felt that I was getting things to complicated. In fact sometimes, it seems that the TT itself is to complicated for some operators, as they tend not to pay attention to it! There is plenty of time in the TT to accomplish what needs to be done, however. Perhaps this is more a discipline problem than a railway problem though.  

One problem that does arise is that a lower priority train has cleared the main to let a higher train through but that train is delayed and everybody just sits there. this is fine for a little while, which it usually is, but sometimes...

At any rate the TT on the "new" railway will have longer, fewer trains and more emphasis on switching than meets I think. The trick is to find a balance between real world sitting around and being run off your feet... Wheels?

Variability

The problem with model railroads is that the work becomes very variable, that is it takes one crew 10 minutes to switch a station and it takes another crew 2 hours.  That will upset the apple cart if the train doing that is superior to many trains.  Some solutions would be to try and make the work a more even amount or set a limit on how long a train can switch or schedule the trains that are most variable in slots where there aren't inferior trains opposing them.

Whatever you do someone has

Whatever you do someone has to be in charge of keeping the trains from a cornfield meet on the main line.   Perhaps you could have a dispatcher and issue Track Warrants,    Or you just make one train ( or direction ) first class and everything else is second class and must keep out of the way per the timetable.  Nothing limits you to only three classes of trains, you could have 6th and 7th classes, with train registers and let everyone work it out on the road.     

Need for a dispatcher

If I run all scheduled trains I don't have a need for a dispatcher.  If I run all scheduled trains and only one extra at a time I don't need a dispatcher.  If I run multiple extras in the same direction, I don't need a dispatcher.  If I run extras in opposite directions at the same time, then I need a dispatcher.  In any of the scenarios except the last one the trains can just read the timetable and keep out of each other's way.  

To make this work I have to have realistic timetable schedules, especially the higher class ones.  The first class trains are usually passenger trains so they should be on time or very close.  The second class trains are usually high priority through freights that only make station set outs and pick ups (don't switch industries.)  The third and fourth class trains are the locals that do industry work.

On the R&T, if I were building the operation, there probably is a switch engine or two that work Ruphe and E Ruphe.  They would be switch engines and work in yard limits so they wouldn't need schedules.  I would also have a switcher at Coronita, also in yard limits.  That leaves Tumbelle, which could be worked by a local or have its own switcher, I would run a local in each direction.  Putting a yard engine at Tumbelle and a yard engine at Coronita, that's two operations, that leaves one or two people to run through traffic.  I would make all the passenger trains 1st class, all the freights between Ruphe/Kilkenny and Coronita 2nd or 3rd class and then the local in each direction 4th class.  That should be fairly easy to build a timetable that is hands free.  If you had to throw in a grain/coal/ore train I would make it an extra and all that it would need is a running order (which could be preprinted "Eng _____ run extra Kilkenny to Coronita." or "Eng _____ run extra Kilkenny to Coronita and return." or whatever.

Token?

Maybe use the primitive token? Trains may only occupy the main when in possession of the token. The train crew receives or pick up the token when leaving the yard and drop it next stop, clearing the main. An other train crew is not allowed to use the main at the same time as they have not the token. This is easy to mimmick, doesn't need a dispatcher and prevents cornfield meets but it seems it would also prevent the next train running in the same direction... This token method was widely in use in Europe and most likely also in the USA so it is more advanced than explained here. Sources on the internet can provide more insight.

Token and ticket

Wikipedia explains the token system better. For multiple trains in the same direction only the last train carries the token, earlier train crew carried a part of the token called a ticket.

UP "staff" system 1976

A excerpt from:  

Clearly the UP never intended to have more than one train on a "staff system" branch line at a time. This also shows the UP using the "staff" or "token" system well into the "modern" era. 

This is the the train control system I assume on my layout

Thanks All

We tried a "token" of sorts a while back. It was more of a track warrant document that you needed in order to enter that piece of track. It never really caught on, operators either didn't pick it up, or if they did, they forgot to put it back.

I'm sure I'll figure something out once we get back to running trains. I know the old timetable had several iterations before we settled on one that seemed to work.

I suppose I should get back to spiking rail, or this whole exercise will be moot.

TT & TO For Ruphe & Tumblle

Here in Europe all trains are timetabled regardless of status so there is no such creature as a Despatcher. However there is an animal called a Controller. His/her job is to ensure that the section of line he/she is responsible for operates smoothly. Just like a Despatcher if everything goes according to plan he/she has an easy day. Of course life is not like that. Weather, breakdowns, maintenance and other factors cause delays and can seriously screw the timetable up. In this event while trains have no classification there are priorities which have to be observed. Passenger express trains get first call and all passenger trains are superior to freight. With freight certain trains such as livestock get precedence over say coal or mineral trains. Then there are parcels (express to Americans) which are between passenger and freight. If a parcels train is carrying mail then it has the same priority as an express passenger train. 

The Controller can adjust the timetable by ordering signalmen/women (tower operators) to hold certain trains in sidings and let prior trains overtake them. He/she could for example instruct a local freight to proceed direct to its terminus and get other trains to pick up any cars it has missed. If things get really bad he/she can cancel trains and get station staff to put passengers on alternative trains. Equally the Controller can cancel freight trains and use conditional paths in the timetable to clear any backlog.

Perhaps a model to look at for people who want to timetable all their trains but still have operational challenges. By the way contact with the signal boxes (towers) was by phone in bygone eras.

Brian Deasy

Dispatcher

... in other words, a dispatcher.

Sounds like a dispatcher

Sounds like a dispatcher would be useful and train orders would need to be issued. Might not be a bad part time job for someone working a yard that is not too busy.

I agree with Dave H

I agree with Dave H.  I've setup TT&TO operations on HO short line similar to yours, worked great.  Some on MRH have operated on it.  I've now gone on to establish TT&TO operations on other layouts.  

As Dave says, you can operate with a Schedule only (TT only ops).  Actually, that's a common way start training model railroad operators before introducing orders.  We could better help you if you shared a list of your trains, what they do and provided your schedule.  Many model railroads are operated by a sequence.  A TT schedule is a complete sequence.  Even better it provides the sequence for every town.  I suggest your start with all trains on a schedule and once comfortable, convert 1 or 2 trains that do not run at the same time to extras to add a bit of excitement.

I suggest you add mixed trains to Dave's recommendations, thus

• 1st Class - Passenger Trains
• 2nd Calss - Mixed Trains (Might do some of the local switching, LCL Freight, Trailing point moves only
• 3rd Class - Freight that serve heavy loads and facing point switchin
• 4th Class - Unit type trains - Log Trains, Mine Trains, etc...

I know on the SR&RL they had first and second class trains on the schedule.  In 1912, there were some 14 scheduled trains on the line.  Additionally extra freight trains and log trains (mainly at night).  The SR&RL made passenger connections all the way through to Portland and Boston.  Meeting those trains was time critical, so the passenger trains were high priority.

Where most hosts get into trouble is trying not to do TT&TO.  There is a perception that crews will not like it or something else.  In the end these compromises do not work well and the true railroading feel that the host wants is not obtained.  The real railroads proved out TT&TO and it worked....It's fun operating from a schedule and operating an extra against a schedule making the proper choices as they did in the dark days of railroad operations.

TT&TO is how your prototype inspirations did it, it's right for what your model, stick with it and give it a good go!

I have an old clinic up on the web:  https://sn2modeler.com/2011/09/17/introduction-to-time-table-and-train-orders-ttto-clinic-hickory-nc-2011/  I hesitate to post this link as it get's into train orders and Dave and I are not proposing you use a dispatcher or do train orders (at least not yet...unless you want to)

Dave Keith

Thanks Dave K

Some helpful info here so far.

I'm presently working on a new time table as the old one doesn't address the new areas on the layout. The railway is pretty simple, and with, usually, only three guys we can't run many trains.

Presently I'm thinking two 1st class passenger trains, one in each direction. Two 3rd class freights going from one yard to the other, switching industries in between. Because we generally don't have enough folks for yard operators, I'm leaving plenty of time in the yards so the freight engineers start out their day as the yard switcher at one yard, couple on the road engine and head out and do the opposite at the other end. I've got no mixed trains planed as of yet, but that might change. There's also an interchange train that sneaks out of staging, heads to one yard one day and the other yard the next day. These will probably be 3rd class as well and simply exchange cars from off the railway with cars in the yard and head back to staging, again with time to play yard switcher.

I'm working on a string diagram right now, I'll post it when it starts to look like something. I like this diagram rather that the "official" railway timetable as you can see the whole rwy. at a glance.

Strategy Seems good

Rick,

Your strategy seems good.  Having crews switch the yard before departing is in-line with Narrow Gauge and Short Line railroads.  Smaller narrow gauge railroads did not have a dedicated switcher in every town, as there was often time to for the crew to switch.  May crews operated the same locomotive for the whole day and made multiple trips up and down the line.  All of the SR&RL crews made more than one trip up and down the line unless they were doing logging.  The SR&RL passenger trains were know for doing 45 MPH, so they could go from Farmington to Rangeley To Farmington To Rangely in a day....Each trip was about 35 miles or so (do not hold me on the length, going by memory).  The B&SR was similar.  I'd guess that OR&W, EBT and others were similar.  Should I have build my SR&RL ( http://www.sn2modeler.com), my plan is to have crews sign up to operate a locomotive for the session.  So they will make whatever trips along the line that locomotive is assigned.  Only the Farmington Switcher will work one place switching the interchange tracks.

Lee Rainey (or maybe it was Ed Cass) did a very nice clinic on the Ohio River and Western passenger operations.  It seems the OR&W set it's schedules to get farmers and town folk to the county seats, so that they could conduct business.  It just so happened that the OR&W went through several remote Ohio county seats.  So passenger trains were scheduled to get shoppers, farmers, etc... to the county seat in the morning and return them home at the end of the business day.  Some of these trains might have been passenger only or mixed.  So, if you have a vision for what your towns represent to the locals, you can justify when your passgener trains run and if it it important for a local to return passengers back home with the day's shopping.

Three crews is a nice number.  If you get more guys, use a two man crew on the switch/local crews.

If you interchange trains does not traverse the railroad, but only comes from stagging into the yard, than it is within Yard Limits and would not be required to be on the schedule.

If you have all of your trains on the schedule and a trains is not going to be run, you could make order such as "Train #23 is annulled".  This could be given verbally or better yet, written down.  It would be a simple modification to the schedule to accommodate some change (such as a missing crewman or one that got called home by the wife).  Then all crew would be able to understand the change.

Another simple order that could be issued, if there is some delay of a train is "Train #23 run 2 hours late" (or if your not using a fast clock, would be run 10 minutes late).  This would let all crews advance their trains further based on the fact that #23 is now running late.

These two simple orders (forms) are simple and would keep your railroad running smoothly...

Dave Keith

http://www.Sn2Modeler.com

Thanks Dave

We've used the "Train #XXX annulled" rule before. It's written down and put into a clear plastic pouch, with a lanyard, that we use to keep our switchlists and TT in.

I like the "Train #XXX running 2 hrs late" rule though. Sounds like a simple way to keep things moving if something "bad" happens.

By the way, here's the rough draft of my string diagram:

 ​

We've been running on a two day schedule for a while now, it gives us a chance to run more trains with fewer people. Op sessions alternate between Day 1 and Day 2. Day 1 and Day 2 are basically the same on this diagram because it was a quick way to get something on paper and see what the crews think. this might, very well, change.

passenger trains (blue) are 1XX numbers   (first # is train class, second # is 1 for westbnd, 2 for eastbnd. third # is usually 0 but might denote day 1 or 2)

Freights (green and orange) are 2XX numbers

Interchange trains (teal) are 3XX numbers.  Train 310 KI is within yard limits, but is on the TT so other operators know when it will be there. 312 CI does have some mainline running.

It's all pretty simple and there is room enough to stick in the odd extra if a fourth person shows up and wants to play. By the way we do use a fast clock, and were running at 9:1 but I might adjust that down to 8:1 to accommodate the longer runs we now have. I've found that the time ratio is one of those things that has to be set by trial and error.

Fast clock

While I understand you trying to force two entire days into one session to generate the activity, but you do realize that you could just change the fast clock to 4:1 or so and operate 12-24 "hours" and just run twice the trains in a day. If you look at your schedules it takes at 200 series crew 16 hours to complete the schedule.  Probably you are modeling a time before the hours of service, but still you would be paying overtime.  It would seem to make more sense to operate a few more trains in one shift or a half day.  For example in the morning and afternoon, run a passenger train in each direction at about the same time, then in the evening run the same thing but each crew/trainset runs in the opposite direction. Take the exact same stringline graph and just change the time scales to go for 6-8 hours instead of 24.

Since you are probably switching the same industries 4 times in a session anyway, just make them a morning and an evening train set.  You could have the trains get cars from each terminal, switch what they can, run to the other terminal, switch there, then gather the outbounds and run back to the other terminal.  You really don't have any through freights, your 200 series engines are basically locals.  You could add through freights that would move cars from one end to the other.  Its too bad you don't have a couple industries on line that would give a another stop for the locals to switch.  

I don't see why TT&TO would be a problem with that schedule on any clock speed.  You never have more than 3 trains out there, you only have one scheduled train meet.  The first class trains should be running on time.  The only real meet on line is between the 2nd class trains.  The only way that would be a problem is if the 2nd class train of superior direction fell way behind schedule.  Easily fixed by giving the inferior direction train right over the other train.  Or a train meet.  The transfers don't conflict with any other trains.  Unless you don't have crews to run the first class trains the most orders you should ever need to write on any given day are one order with two copies.

Days

We actually only simulate one day per op session, if we run day 1 today we run day 2 next month, or whenever it is.

I've often thought that I should shorten the "fast day" and run 12 hrs. instead of 24. The TT just sorta' started at 24 hrs. as it seemed logical to simulate a day in the life, so, to speak. When we run I have the lighting set to change from night to day and back again over the course of the session. It might be nice to run the first half of the day in one session and the last half the next, but this would require me to re-program my lighting each time, a very labourious task with the equipment I'm using for light control. mind you I've never really been happy with that system, so...

The whole TT is geared more towards switching than running and meets. I don't have that many places to meet, or run for that matter.  

We were running 3 car trains before and we will now be able to handle seven cars so switching time needed will rise from what we had before. Now sometimes we will be spotting two cars at an industry when before we spotted one, so the time required won't really change but we weren't exactly sitting around before either.

At any rate I'm excited to get back to running again, and I'm sure some issue or another will pop up during our first few sessions that I never even thought about!

Day

You only run trains for about 18 hours anyway (5 am to about 11 pm) so cutting it back to 12 hours shouldn't be that big a deal.  

Day, Time, Schedule

On many NG railroads, the trains mostly ran at or near the daylight hours.  Likewise as Dave suggests, there are only 12-16 hours of service.  I too suggest you compress the time space down to something like 5am to 8pm

I like to use passenger trains to set the rhythm of the railroad.  It seems your passenger trains are taking a long time to get across the RR.  I'd think your NG RR is only 20-30 miles or so long, so would only expect.  Changing the clock will make the times seem more realistic.  For more interest to freight crews, I'd be tempted to run your passenger trains up and back in the morning and repeat in the afternoon.  If you only run each way once, there is no way a business man could make a trip up and back in the same day.  So you could do the following:

• 120 - Leave earlier in the moring, arriving KI before 210 departs
• 121 - Leave KI before 210 departs (210 would follow it) and meet 220 a TB
• 122 - Leave CC late after noon, arriving KI after 220 (might meet 210 at
• 123 - Leave KI returning to CC - This would be the last train of the day...Running on a mostly clear RR

If you made 121 and 122 mixed trains, they could haul overflow through freight and possibly LCL that came from the Interchange trains or similar.  You could Annul these trains if you do not have sufficient crews.  Adding these train may make your RR seem busier than you want and change the flavor...Your to explore...

I think your string diagram for the 220/210 meet is not clear.  Meets do not happen on exact time.  One train should be expected to arrive first.  So only your RR, I'd expect the westbound train should arrive first.  On most RR's if the east bound train (high priority by direction) arrives first, it can keep going without waiting for the other train to arrive.  This is part of the fun of TT operations, the lower priority train has to decide if it can depart the previous town in time to make the scheduled meet time by 10 minutes (or you could say 2-3 real minutes).  Note, I've been told there are some railroad that make scheduled meets "hard meets" meaning that priority does not matter (I think it was the B&M)

I presume that 312 backs off the continuous loop track stagging and goes to CC.  Hence it has some mainline running to CC.  Why do I need see 312's counter part (322) heading back to where it came?  It seems to terminate at CC.  Having that run back to CC would probably be fun.  I presume there could be a track in CC with a cut of cars for it to pick up and return.  The returned cars would them be 310.

Do you give the string diagram to crews? or a schedule?

Dave Keith

http://www.Sn2Modeler.com

Meets on a local

220 and 210 are more or less locals, they do industry switching, so there will not be snowballs chance that they will consistently make the meet at the time scheduled.

The best bet is not to have to opposing worker bees make a scheduled meet, schedule them in a slot when only through trains oppose them.  That way they don't impact anything.  I would also make them 3rd or 4th class trains since they are locals.  That way anything else running can go and the slowest trains are the ones taking it on the meets.

Of strings and things

Keep in mind that this diagram is nothing more that a quick "sketch" to get some ideas flowing, which it is .

Yes 312's counterpart does return to staging, was missed on the diagram.

The crews get the string diagram in their packet.

As far as messing with the times and number of trains there's not much that can be done. For an op session lasting around 3 hrs. (which is a reasonable length we feel) the speeds and switching times are appropriate to my railway, we run slow and switch at realistic speeds. If you figure a town that is 20 ft. long, it takes time just to drive your train around where it needs to get. One can easily burn up 1/2 hr. switching industries in one town. One could run more trains with fewer tasks each but that means more people, or more stress for the people we have. We used to run many more trains each but the problem was if you had issues with your first train, all your other trains were now late. Too much stress for a hobby IMHO. Plus, when the boys get stressed they might spill their beer!

But keep the ideas coming, I think this blog should be required reading for my crew when we start to discuss the TT in earnest.

Hi Rick, what did you settle on for a schedule?

Stumbled into this thread while looking for your layout plan.  Got curious on what you are presently doing for operations.

Regards,

Jerry