This summer's greatest blockbuster!

Nicely done Scott!  Definitely one of my favorite movies of the year.  Wise marketing move keeping my mug away from the camera. 

The PT's been a joy to use!  I don't mean to rub salt in the wounds of all those out there who are patiently waiting for them to be released, but...yeah, it's even better than I expected.  It'll be well worth the wait! 

Eleven

At least 11 points on a scale going to 10!

@Scott - earlier you

@Scott - earlier you mentioned the proto-throttle would need an additional piece for the specific DCC system.

At home I use an NCE wireless system, and at the club (and some friends layouts) I use Lenz via the LI/USB wifi, or CVP radio. Then of course there's JMRI in a lot of places.

Is the adaptor piece something that goes inside the throttle? A software download? or something else entirely. Is it something easy to change?

Just curious, Thanks, gs

It's like waving a big, juicy steak in front of a hungry dog!

Thanks for keeping us updated... I'm another soon-to-be customer. As a DCC-newbie I hope you'll help us less-savy clients get this up and running on our layouts once it hits the market.

Different system compatibility

Michael is the technical expert behind the throttle, so he might see this thread and give a better explanation, but eventually, the throttle will communicate directly with systems such as NCE. For Digitrax the throttle will use a Raspberry Pi board with JMRI installed as a go-between to talk to the DCC system. 

D.M.:  we will have a manual that will explain all the controls, setup, and features of the throttle. Tim Garland has graciously agreed to provide guidance on how to operate the throttle prototypically. Tim is a professional railroader, so his input will be greatly appreciated. We’ll all learn something on how to be more realistic model "railroaders"!

Joe: this is why we picked you as a beta tester – you have the best looking hands for video production. Do you soak them in Palmolive?  (Anyone who gets that joke is an older fart like Joe and me.)

So cool!!!!

Need more beta testers ?

I'm a G scale fan using DCC. I'm guessing this throttle will be able to be used for all scales in DCC?

Thanks Scott. GS

Thanks Scott. GS

Joe: this is why we picked

Scott, Madge says to tell you Hi.

On a serious note it would be great if you guys could offer a kit with the needed items to hook this up to the major systems like CVP, MRC, Lenz, NCE and DGI TRAXX. That would be very helpful to those of us that don't understand electronics.

The real beauty of this throttle is how easy the thing interfaces with the user. I also really like the size!

Not to worry, Rob…

We won’t leave anyone hanging. There will be step-by-step instructions on how to set up the throttle for each system. We don’t want to frustrate anyone.

Drive Hold

Scott,

Since you teamed up with ESU will this Throttle support the Full Throttle features like Drive Hold and Coast or does it simply rely on programming a high momentum? The reason I ask this is because of the way I would operate a Prototype unit is closer to what can be achieved with the Full Throttle functions than with the traditional method. For example, getting a train started from a stop is different than keeping one moving. Typically I need to notch out to three, four or even five to get a train started from a stop. In the event where I have the whole train on the main and I am staring at a clear after slowly stretching the train out and notching out to four or five to get it started I will more than likely keep slowly notching out until Run 8 if necessary. However in the yard or on Industrial trackage things are done differently. I will notch up to get the train started but then notch back one or two off to level the speed out. Drive Hold allows for this. I can increase to speed step seven, hit Drive Hold to keep the speed constant, then decrease the Throttle but keep the speed the same. On the prototype it is generally around 10 mph moving on tracks other than the mainline. Just wondering if you were able to incorporate it.

Thanks!

Tim Garland

Drive Hold

Tim, my feedback to Scott and Michael all along has been that, for me, Drive Hold is really essential, and they've been very agreeable about incorporating it.  Michael currently has it mapped to the Dynamic Brake button, but I think the long-term plan is to move it to one of the two buttons to the right of the LCD screen instead, both of which have radio button indicators on the LCD so you can tell if Drive Hold is engaged.

The realism that this combination of the ProtoThrottle and Drive Hold brings to operations is like nothing I've experienced in this hobby.  I'm coming dangerously close to quitting my job and locking myself in the basement! 

Explain ...

Please explain how this works in actual practice. I thought the proto-throttle was to be the cats meow all by itself - now I'm hearing we need "model railroading buttons" on the proto throttle too that we need to use during ops?

I can understand needing some model railroading buttons on the throttle for setup, but during ops? That seems like it kills the total immersion experience to hear that I need a model railroading button (drive hold) during ops.

Running Trains

Joe, others....

You could definitely use this Throttle the way you would use any other Throttle. Notch up and the train moves, notch off and the train stops. Just like you would turn a knob or hit buttons on a regular controller. That is fine and dandy for a Model Train. But that is not necessarily how the Prototype works. In order to simulate a prototype train you have to consider mass and physics. Once you get 500, 1500, 3000 or more tons rolling down the track it can take some serious effort to get them to stop. There is a couple of ways to simulate this on the model, one of which is the Drive Hold and Coast features using Full Throttle. 

The other which could come close but not necessarily as good would be to max out the deceleration delay and use the train brake. For switching smaller cuts of cars this is probably all you need. For larger cuts moving greater distances then it may not be the best method to fully simulate how a real train works. 

I would recommend setting CV3 to 125 and CV4 to 255. I would also set up a custom speed table. In an earlier blog I mentioned having the ability to simulate a LIGHT LOAD, MEDIUM LOAD and HEAVY LOAD. This in fact would require three separate speed tables. Locomotives act completely different with light loads compared to heavy loads.

On Light loads after about 10 to 15 seconds might make 8 mph in notch 2. On heavy loads I can't even get the train to budge in Notch 2. Then when moving light after notching off with the Throttle the units will eventually come to a stop a lot sooner than if I had a heavy cut of cars pulling me down into a track.

I hope this makes sense.

Tim 

I get the philosophy ... but it's actual practice I'm needing

Tim:

I get the philosophy, but what I'm looking for is how this is done in actual practice with an actual proto-throttle. I need to see some examples using this throttle with drive hold.

The problem I'm having is on a regular knobby throttle, I can press drive hold then run the engine revs up and down using the knob. The proto-throttle has no knob, so how do you manage revs on a throttle that's deliberately designed to get away from the knob?

If I need to use the notched throttle lever to manage drive hold, then what tells me the notch the actual throttle was in before I switched to drive hold? My biggest beef with drive hold is the need to keep track of what setting the throttle was in before I changed over from throttle notch to drive hold. Using the same control for two different purposes means I lose track of the other setting once I switch over ...

Seems counter-intuitive to me ... that I have to now make the model do extra things because the proto-throttle can't do it with its programming (don't pay any attention to this extra thingy "behind the curtain").

(Yes, I'm deliberately playing devil's advocate ... )

Use of Drive Hold

Maybe it's just my preference Joe, but I think there are gaps that no throttle can fully address apart from Drive Hold.  This isn't to take anything away from the PT at all...it's just physics.  Scott and I have discussed this quite a bit relative to the Tonnage feature he has planned to adjust momentum based on the size of the train you're working with.  In my opinion, increasing or decreasing momentum through a tonnage feature will help, and is definitely a neat feature, but it won't address every situation that Drive Hold does today.  

For example, no amount of momentum is going to allow my yard job to maintain a steady 5 mph in Run 8 as its down on its knees pulling a large transfer job across town.  Similarly, I don't see momentum being the solution that allows me to throttle up light power quickly and then drift through the yard at idle.  Given the lack of mass in our models compared to the prototype and the way our electric motors behave, I can't think of another way that those things can be done apart from how Drive Hold works today.  

Fortunately, I've found Drive Hold to be so intuitive that I can use it, even on the ProtoThrottle, without having to think about it.  So for me at least, it doesn't take my mind out of the prototype world and into those model railroad thoughts.

Using Drive Hold

Joe,

The way I use Drive Hold on my Layout is to first figure out what Scale MPH each speed step is with an Accutrack Speedometer. For example if I know speed step 5 is equal to 10 mph when I lock Drive Hold into that step I know I'm keeping the train rolling 10 mph no matter what setting I am in on the Throttle. As a matter of fact I try to make all my units run the same in each speed step. I made a chart of the scale speed of each step and it didn't take long to memorize some. I know speed step one is about 3.5 mph and speed step two is about 5 mph. So prior to coupling up I'll go to speed step 2 disengage drive hold, then notch completely off and use the brake to stop.

Using the ProtoThrottle I would first figure out what speed each notch on the Throttle is equal to. With enough built in momentum the transition between notches in speed could be gradual and more realistic. Think about it like this. You've just coupled to a track full of cars. Move the Reverser, go to notch one to slowly stretch the slack. Hit drive hold. Notch up to three or four. Disengage drive hold for one second, then reengage. The speed should be around 5 mph because it thinks the Throttle is in speed step 2. Disengage Drive hold again for one second and reengage. Now your doing 7 or 8 mph. Notch off to Idle on the Proto Throttle. When you are about 5 car lengths from a stop, disengage drive hold and use the train brake to stop.

Sound like fun? Sure would be for me!

Tim

Get on TrainMasters TV

Another way to handle the

Another way to handle the load feature is to use lots of weight and lots of cars. I have noticed lots more throttle is needed when pulling a long train of extra heavy cars. There is quite a difference between less than 50 cars and more than 50 as far as throttle settings. I suspect the effects would need some extra button pushes to make 15 or 20 cars that were light weight feel like 100 cars that were heavy.

Drive Hold

I'm with Joe - I do not see the point why special buttons or Drive Hold should be necessary.

My thoughts of how the software of the throttle will be working:

1. To start a train set notch 3 for example; throttle is sending out the appropriate DCC commands so that the train accelerates to the speed set up for this notch. (I suppose enough momentum is set up in the decoder to smooth out everything.) For heavier trains the throttle waits a little bit longer before sending out the next DCC speed step command than for lighter trains.
2. Train is moving.
3. Going back to idle. The software of the throttle sends out the DCC commands for manual notching down the sound supposing the decoder in use is supporting manual notching. The speed step is not changed, so the train is coasting. No need of special buttons or Drive Hold. Additionally the throttle can decrease the DCC speed steps for example every 30s one step down to simulate that a train would not run forever without power.
4. When braking, the throttle sends out decreasing DCC speed steps and DCC commands for brake sound. No need of special buttons or Drive Hold.

So I think everything should/could be done in the throttle's software without having any special buttons and things like Drive Hold. The only prerequisites should be some reasonable momentum programmed in the decoder and its ability of manual notching.

I'd go even further ...

I'd go even further ... for example, I push the throttle into some starting notch, like 2 or 3. Let's assume I also have said medium load in advance.

The throttle should tell a LokSound decoder to go to drive hold and then push it up to something equivalent to 2 or 3. The engine revs up but does not move.

Now switch to drive hold off, so the loco starts to move. After a several seconds (giving time for things to be rolling well), the throttle software should switch to drive hold on and ramp down the notch so the loco now is done working hard and coasting with the load. Finally, the software should switch drive hold off and let the throttle notch and decoder speed equalize.

That's how I see it should work. Now if I prefer to do drive hold myself, then fine. But ordinarily, the throttle should take a load setting and decoder type and be as smart as possible without requiring drive hold to be manipulated manually. Yet, behind the scenes, the throttle should do some smarts around drive hold for me when running with a drive-hold enabled LokSound decoder.

Joe - I like the way you are

Joe - I like the way you are thinking, but consider this. You want to model the physics of the train in the throttle software, but you'll be missing a few inputs. The throttle can't know the severity of the grade, the weight of the load, etc.

The best you will do is a rough approximation. By the time you get enough buttons to provide the inputs you're back to where you started with a bunch of non-prototype controls.

One function key for drive hold is a pretty elegant solution.

GS

Momentum

Joe F., what you're describing sounds very much like operating with high momentum.  What am I missing?  

I still don't see how this, or any other solution that does away with the operator's use of Drive Hold (or the associated coast or run 8 functions offered on Loksounds, Tsunami 2's, and perhaps others) could replicate the situations such as those I described earlier.  For situations of extended running at low speed and high notches, or extended drifting, I don't see a way to get there apart from operator intervention of some sort.  As George said, Drive Hold does that simply and elegantly, in a manner that, to me, is very intuitive, and therefore doesn't require a lot of model thoughts.

Train weight

I think Tim is on to something!  

Actually, his train of thought is exactly what we hope to incorporate eventually into the throttle’s firmware. From the beginning, I envisioned building in four separate programmable channels that would each contain linear CV commands for each of these four scenarios:  Running engine light, moving a light train, moving a medium weight train, and moving a heavy train. The linear CVs will be totally programmable by the throttle’s owner so that they can set up the four channels to their own preferences. 

On command, the linear CV commands from a specific channel would be sent to the locomotive(s) via programming "on the main" AND "on the fly". For running engine light, for example, the momentum CVs would be shortened considerably and the speed curve would be compressed – thus the locomotive’s notching and braking will also be shortened. Then, after coupling to a heavy train, the engineer would now send "channel 4’s" linear CVs to the engines with a much expanded momentum and speed curve. Now it will require the engineer to open up the throttle significantly to get the train moving and time will be expanded for better realism. At any time once moving the engineer could send any of the other channel’s CVs to the engines "on the fly" to change the weight parameters of the train. This approach, I believe, will result in more realistic operation and reduced button pushing compared to full throttle. But for the Loksound users, full throttle will still be available – so one would have the best of both worlds. In fact, full throttle should be retained to best simulate coasting downgrade.

Low speeds require just as