My Plan for My Train Stuff

I'm doing updates and detailing on my 2 Pacifics and 2 Mikados. Over the past few years I have accumulated 4 can motor drive units and 4 sets of detail parts in order to apply the same updates and adds to each locomotive. My first project is the Pacific I built in 1967. Then I will take on a Mikado followed by a 2nd Pacific and 2nd Mikado. Then I'll tackle the freight and passenger rolling stock.

I am not a super detailer. I am not a rivet counter. I am not a prototype modeler. I'm not much of a free-lancer! My steamers have no road name and no numbers. My locomotives are all DC! DCC is still an unknown to me; however, since I'm re motoring these locomotives I plan to do some decoder ready wiring just in case.

I have found articles and photos on the net showing amazing rebuilds and super detailing of Mantua steamers - lots of grinding, lots of added pipes, and lots of new details. As most Model Railroaders know, Mantua steamers are not "lookers." I will take just a few, simple steps to improve the looks and acceptance(to me at least) of my Mantuas. Just replacing the pilot on a Mantua improves the look significantly! My Mantua steamers each have identical "long haul" coal tenders. However, being in Texas, we burn oil. Thus, I'm converting the coal bunkers to oil bunkers.

I'm well along on that first Pacific's update. During the update, I realized that my fingers and eyes were not what they used to be. Despite some frustration, I stuck with it to do the soldering of wires, drilling (pin vice and drill press), sawing, filing, and gluing. I did get some messy results which I think are okay from a few feet. Hopefully, I'll do a better job on the next 3 locomotives. I guess I have to revive my fingers and eyes along with my HO equipment. The next few posts will describe my Pacific changes.

Steve G
 

Re Motor the Pacific

Long ago HO locomotive manufacturers and modelers began transitioning from open frame motors to can motors. I never had a problem with my Mantua open frame motors; however, I jumped on the band wagon anyway and decided my HO steamers should have can motors too.

 
The chassis view above shows my Pacific with the new can motor with flywheel/worm idler drive unit installed. It was manufactured by Allentown Locomotive Company. A new owner renamed the company Alliance Locomotive; however, that owner closed the company due to health reasons. I bought 4 of these units (P/N 180311) in 1997 from Allentown for my Pacifics and Mikados but this is the first one I have installed(Yup, I let these units sit for 20+ years). Per instructions, I inserted a paper shim between the chassis & drive mount at the screw hole to improve gear mesh. The paper still did not give the right gear mesh for "free turning" of the fly wheels. So, I used a thin brass washer that worked. Also, per instructions, I removed two round casting risers on the inside of the boiler(drilled them out with my drill press). I lubricated the bearings and the valve gear with Labelle 107. I also tightened the drive rod hex screws(the tiny wrench was a challenge). Now, on to detail updates.

Steve G

Steamer updates

Steve: It's not just the old guys interested. I love those old kits and wish there were similar versions in O scale narrow gage. Hope you don't mind if I lurk a bit. 

Me too!

Lurking as well!

Enjoy!

I have a few older Zamac models and they seem to be the go-to engines.  They have been old reliable friends for more than 35 years! 

Enjoy your return!

Pilot and Compressor Replacement

Every Mantua owner would like to replace the original pilot. It represents dual pilot deck mounted compressors covered by a protective shield (its a big non-appealing shield). The design of the Mantua Pacific is supposedly based on a Baltimore & Ohio P-7 locomotive rebuild which in fact had pilot deck mounted compressors and a huge shield with the B&O logo centered on it. I've seen how some modelers have replaced the pilot and mounted Cal Scale compressors on the fireman's side of the firebox. I doubt any prototype ever had this compressor mounting. I've also noticed that many Mantuas became the basis for major changes in which a part of the fireman's side walkway was replaced by a step over walkway so that a Cal Scale compressor could be mounted below the step over. I decided to avoid all the sawing and filing for now and use new deck mounted compressors on a new pilot with smaller shields.

My Rivarossi Berkshire has deck mounted compressors and shields so that gave me an idea. I knew Bachmann made a Berkshire so I decided to use their parts as a cheap way using new plastic deck mounted compressors and shields on a new plastic pilot. I ordered four sets of shields and compressor pairs for a Berkshire from Bachmann.

Compressors (L&R) . . . . . . . . . . . 509XX-00V04 & -00V05
Compressor Frame (Shields) . . . . 509XX-0AG03
 

The first pilot on the left above is the original Mantua pilot used on Pacific and Mikado locos. The second pilot is the new upgrade. I purchased 4 of these upgrade pilots from Yardbird Classic Trains in the late 1990s. Sadly, Yardbird's owner retired and the business is no more. The Bachmann Berkshire pilot deck is wider and deeper than the space of the new replacement pilot. So, I had to do some not so pretty cutting and splicing of the Bachmann shield cross brace. The modified brace looked to bulky. So, I sawed away the all cross bracing, leaving only shields and compressors. The shields were too deep for the space so I removed about 1/16 from the back vertical edge. This resulted in the third pilot in the above. I later installed a Kadee coupler on the new pilot.

Steve G

Thanks for Comments

Neil, Warflight, Paul:  Thanks for your comments.  The "lurking" around Model Railroading for the last few decades is what I've been doing for sure - not much action. It makes me chuckle as I  realize I have been nothing but a "lurker." I hope my future posts will help some others to move beyond lurking.

Steve G

 "I realized that my fingers

I guess it's just something we have to learn to deal with, I too have noticed my fingers get cramps when I hand spike too much track at a time so I guess i'll have to buy more flextrack and just hand lay the turnouts.....DaveB 

Tender Oil Bunker

I started on the Pacific's long haul tender by removing the cast coal with my jeweler's saw. I was not careful enough when sawing and filing and broke off both the rear steps. So, I had to use some make-do steps. I made a wooden block to represent the top of the welded oil bunker. I need to add lifting rings in the future. The oil fill hatches are capacitors from a junked electronic board - they look too large so I'll look for smaller for the next loco. I did not do a neat job while removing and replacing the Mantua cast-on ladder with a separate detail(this is a Bachmann ladder P/N 839X-AA03). I drilled a hole thru the rear light casting on the tender to exactly fit a grain of wheat bulb. I put a diode in the line to light when in reverse. Two vertical slots were cut into the front of the tender for pass-thru of wires from the loco - the loco's wires are "captured" in the slots when the tender chassis is attached to its shell. Thus, the tender shell can be removed without trapping the wires as a hole through the front would do.

To avoid troubles stuffing the wires into the tender shell while attaching it to the chassis, I made the bunker removable using some locking-in-place blocks under the top and a small screw. This should help to make it easier to access wires if I ever get a decoder. Maybe I will get better and neater as I tackle the next three tender conversions. The photos below show the removed oil bunker top and the wiring before "stuffing" and the finished look.

Steve G

Never give up!

I am on the short side of 79, and have a sectional or TOMA layout in "progress". I  have several modules connected, with track laying and some scenery in various stages. It is wired as I go, so I can run trains in a rudimentary fashion. At the same time as I am doing various decoder installs and buildings to fit the scenes, I am working out the various operating sequences, allowing for future staging. Sure, my progress is slow, but it keeps me involved and I can work at my own pace, a little of this, a little of that, so I don't get bored. I try to get in at least an hour a day, with occasional two or three hour spurts. Some progress is better than none!

One thing I have noticed, and this is a hint to others, two by six foot sections are a lot easier to handle than eight footers! Keep on keeping on! John Colley, Sonoma, CA

B&O P7 vs. Mantua

Before I started messing with the boiler, I thought I better revisit the Baltimore & Ohio P7 comparison to the Mantua model. The B&O had several builds and re-builds of their P7 Pacific making me wonder if any two were alike. My guess is that there was not a standard for their P7 (some had 7a, 7b, 7c, etc. designations). I think the two (right & left) prototype photos below of two separate P7's show where the Mantua Pacific heritage is:
 

Comparing the above prototype photos to the Mantua:
- Both have a pilot with deck mounted compressors and a "massive" shield.
- Both P7 photos show sanders. The loco whose right side is shown has sander pipes that enter into the boiler shroud. The left side photo shows all external sander pipes.
- Above the walkways, there was not much piping. Lots of detail is below the walkways. The shrouds looked fairly "clean." This may have earned some of the model's boiler contribution to "lacks detail" reputation.
- The power reverse actuator rod curves same as Mantua's cast on power reverse.
- The bell is at the top front of the smoke box but Mantua's is far back ahead of generator. Mantua's later RTR B&O President Adams series did have the bell on the smoke box front.
- There are cylindrical "tanks" under the walkway as does the model.
- The P7 has stand-off stanchions but model has very short eyelets.

So, the prototype photos did give me some feeling that I knew more about the prototype loco's appearance; however, I really had no intention of trying to make a better P7 out of the Mantua. I just wanted to understand better what is "hanging on that machine." I think of my Pacific as a free lance needing more stuff on it meaning I must continue studying. The Mantua Pacific's details that I added are few. When I started I thought that it would look like lots of stuff that was newly attached would give a great improvement but that didn't work out. I have been scouring photos and trying to find what details I can add to give a better view.

My next post will describe my Pacific after my changes.
 

Completed Mantua Pacific

The following Cal Scale details were added to the Pacific(these same details will be added to my other Mantua Pacific and Mikado locomotives):

- Marker Lights . . . 190-280
- Bell. . . . . . . . . . . . . 190-285
- Generator . . . . . . . 190-211
- Sanders . . . . . . . . . 190-286

I also replaced the Mantua headlight kit with a grain of wheat bulb.

I originally painted my locos with Floquil Engine Black which is no longer manufactured. The MRH's Paint Conversion Chart listed Testors' Model Master Engine Black #4888 as the substitute which I found at Discount Model Trains in Addison, Texas. As a touch-up, the #4888 is a fair match but does have a different sheen.

As seen above, the Mantua Pacific was ready for a test run. The details I added are almost hidden in my not so great photo. On the next loco I hope to do a better job in adding details and improve my picture taking.
 

*ahem*

I am LOVING this thread!

@ Steve G

Steve you have a standing invite to visit the club in Commerce, TX. Right now we believe we have discovered two areas with a wiring issue and the main layout is down while it is being repaired. It is likely with in two weeks all will be running again, might be much less. Thanks for your kind words above.

Thank You

John, Warflight, and Rob:  Thanks for your comments.  I'm having FUN with my "Getting Back to My Trains" projects. 

Rob, a trip to Commerce is on my to do list.  My wife's family has roots in Commerce with the railroads.  Her great grandmother had a boarding house there providing meals and rooms to railroad employees.  Her grandparents met in Commerce, married there, and resided there for several years.

SteveG

The Pacific Runs Great

I set up a circle of track on our dining table and hooked up a Model Rectifier Tech II 2500. By the way, that dining table is 4.5 feet x 12 feet - we have a big family including 7 grandkids. And yes, that table could support a small modular layout when not hosting a big family dinner - I'm keeping that in mind! The loco started up right away and ran very smooth. The Allentown/Helix Humper drive behaves just like the advertisements and reviews that I read years ago. It has a fantastic slow, creep speed. I did not pull any cars with it so I do not know if it retains the awesome pulling power that the original open frame motor had. Its pretty cool though! AND even the tender light came on in reverse which made me happy that I still remembered something about current flow direction of a diode and wired it right the first time.

During the testing, I discovered a problem with my MRC 2500. It continued to output power when the knob was in the full stop position. I purchased the 2500 to run our G scale under the Christmas Tree for the grandkids over 15 years ago. The Pacific continued to move at an extremely slow creep with the knob at stop. I did some searching on the net and found others having the same problem but found no actual solution. I learned that inside the 2500 case is a power supply with a transistor throttle - it does not have the a wire wound reostat. My net searches found one post that said the problem could be a failing part in the throttle. I kind of think the voltage "leak" has always been there(a possible design flaw) and only the creep effect of the Allentown/Helix Humper revealed it. I will just have to turn the unit power off when I want a "full stop."

Next, I'm going to add a few posts about some of the problems I had and some of the things I did not do to the Mantua Pacific. I have started on the Mikado and will post about it after I tell my problem stories!
 

Dining Table Layouts...

Right now, I haven't the room for a layout (though I plan to MAKE room for a module, and I blame MRH for putting THAT idea in my head) so for the moment, EZ Track is my friend. When I want to run trains, I can toss some EZ track on the bed, floor, a table... wherever... it's especially great when I get a new engine, and want to break it in. I have some manual EZ Track switches on it's way from an eBay sell (who knew they still made manual switches in NS?) I MIGHT take the board I use for leveling track (it's a black piece of flooring that was once a piece of the stage at the San Diego Opera House... it was a left over when I built the stage for my studio) and hot glue myself a simple switch yard, just for some added fun...

MRC 2500... well, I've had my issues with MRC in the past, and I won't be buying any decoders from them again, but, I will give them this... they do tend to be good about fixing their product if there's an issue (at least they answer e-mails) so you may want to e-mail them... who knows... they may offer to fix or replace your throttle for you. Let us know if they do, yeah?

Old Mantua locomotives

Warflight and Moe Line - Great Ideas

Warflight:  Thanks for the EZ Track temp layout on dining table idea.  I have some EZ stuck away somewhere that I was given about 10 years ago and never thought to try it.  So, next Mantua test run I make I'll use it.  I bet it will be lots easier to Bright Boy cleansince it locks together.  Also, I'll look into contacting MRC.  I have a second MRC 2500 stored away so I'll check it with my VOM.  Then I'll know if I have just one or maybe two problems to contact them about.

Moe Line:  Its great to hear from someone who also has some love for a Mantua.  Every time I see one at a train show for sale I have to restrain myself.  I think about parts or adding to my roster but sanity prevails since all I would be doing is buy something to store away.  I am very interested in your new cab  building.  I have looked for junkers by other manufacturers at train shows to see if I can find desirable cabs.  I remember back when Walthers still produced all kinds of kits in the 1960s they had a cab kit. Where can I get a design? What are they made of?

Thanks again guys for the comments.

Steve G

Mikado cab

Problem - Headlight

I'm going to make a few posts about what I have not done or problems that I had with my update of this Pacific. My first problem, the headlight, follows:

The cast on headlight of the Mantua Pacific and Mikado locomotives are exact reminders to me of my old Lionel steamers. I guess those cast on headlights were indicative of the times for bulb types, bulb locations, and die machining. When I built that Pacific and Mikado back in 1967, I added the Mantua headlight kit to them - it uses an acrylic insert to draw the bulb light in the smoke box out. When I bought the used Pacific and Mikado I added that kit to them also.

Off and on over the years I thought of an update plan to remove the light kit and modify the cast on headlight to look just a little more prototype. I have to admit that I saw no way ever to get a bulb into one of those little Cal Scale headlight casting. So, I was going to saw a gap into the protruding headlight casting at the smoke box face which would leave a shorter, more prototypical headlight still sitting on the original integrally cast mount. This would give a strong headlight detail and not a delicate detail. I then planned to plug the hole in the smoke box and add a grain of wheat bulb in the shortened headlight with the tiny wires running down the front and under the smoke box. The photos below shows the original headlight and a photoshop modification to show the gap I was thinking about.
 

I measured my grain of wheat bulb and it was longer than the shortened headlight casting such that bulb would stick into the gap. I had to abandon the gap approach. Hopefully, in the future, I can find a bulb length that would fit making that gap idea work - maybe a LED would somehow work. The grain of wheat is a 3mm diameter that fits perfect - its just too long. I did install the grain of wheat but NO gap.

Why am I writing about my problems with this locomotive model update?  Well, maybe somebody out there can avoid the same or help me with a solution.  There you go!

Steve G

Your Cab

Jim, I hope you  can post a picture of your Mikado.  I could then better understand how you made it. After you glued the splice joint, how do smooth the outside surfaces? Sanding, filler??  Since you moved the cab forward, did you grind off that chunk (what is it?) on top of boiler in front of cab?

Steve G

Pico LED

I recently bought a lighting kit for my HO Bobber caboose from MRCHQ (www.modelrollercoasterhq.com/) and mentioned to the owner that I wished there was a way to light up the lantern on the break man on the back... he sent me a small light he called a "Pico LED", and I swear, as tiny as it is, it is a BRIGHT WHITE! Like, I have a small flashlight that isn't that bright! So, to shade the light a bit, I used about three to9 five drops of Testors Clear Parts Cement/Window Maker (I call it "Window Goo", as I use it to make small windows that look more prototypical than clear plastic, or scotch tape) along with one drop of red food colour, and one drop of yellow food colour.

I could see using one of those bulbs for the headlight, and maybe just a drop of yellow in the "window goo" (the "window goo" dries clear) It would be plenty small to fit, and plenty bright to use, and they come with their own little teensy resistor wired into them, and are dirt cheap. The little light is actually a bit smaller than the lantern in the hand of the Bachmann HO scale break man.

Here's a pic of my caboose (the only place where you hear that on the Internet, and not have to worry)



Like I say, the little bulb is VERY small, and VERY VERY bright (that's running off of 1.5 volts, but they can handle MUCH more than that... I tested it with DCC track power, 14 volts, and it had the same brightness, and they don't heat up) It will fit your headlight, with plenty of room to spare.

 

@Steve G

Steve, one of the guys in my club wrote an article that was published in MRC detailing a conversion of a Mantua 2-8-2 to a good representation of a H-10 NYC 2-8-2. It covered two issues and was on the cover of one. I will ask Tom B. for the dates of the article so you can access it from your stash of back issues. If your like many of us that predate the web you likely have a stash of magazines from the time when they only came in paper form.

I suspect you might find the article very helpful as it relates to dealing with modifications to the type you are working on.