" Crazy?"       Only from a

Only from a how do I build this point of view. Adequate width aisles and narrow benchwork with visible track are more useful for construction and maintenance access than running pleasure. If you can come up with a robot to build and housekeep this type of layout I'd be all for it....DaveB 

Crazy? Nope!

Neil,

 Your far from crazy. I can actually see that being a really cool idea. Was in home depot on Thursday and saw a camera used for inspecting between walls for a couple hundred bucks. The camera was about 5/16" in diameter. The drill hole could be covered with either ground foam or a rock when not in use. You would also be able to turn the camera by pushing a button. I think it was being sold under the Milwaukee tool company.

Charlie

Deep Sweeping Vistas

Deep sweeping vistas will need to be built, lighted, sceniced, and maintained. Plus, accommodations will need to be made for access to those normally inaccessible areas to handle things like derailments, or burnt out lights. All of this equates to time and money.

If that's your thing, fine.

George

Not typical but certainly not crazy

Neil,

You have touched on things started in my previous layout and in the planning for the current layout.  

I am 'photo-shopping' scenes for the backdrop on the lower level staging because I believe that area should be finished as well as the main layout.  

Inside the helix will have a finished look with painted sub-roadbed, blue painted masonite 'backdrop' around the interior of the outside of the helix with printed (on home computer) backdrop scenes from one of those scenery CDs, blue sky painted bottom of the sub-roadbed above, and 1" high fascia on the inside edge of the sub-roadbed. (hope that makes sense)  All wiring and feeders will be hidden.

Inside of the tunnels will be finished, painted and weathered.

There are two passenger trains with dummy F-units that will have on-board cab-view live streamed video and the trains can be operated remotely by grandkids and guests.  Signals controlled by JMRI will be needed for traffic control, or use by a (remote) dispatcher.  Four overhead cameras connected to a surveillance DVR already give them a live overview of the layout.

Hadn't thought about the conductor view but that would be easy enough to add.  Here's a current view of the staging level awaiting the backdrop and hand laid switches on the far end.  (Completing it from one end, one 'section' at a time, as my version of TOMA construction)

You can read more about my layout here.

Regards, Dave

"Hadn't thought about the

    I recall seeing a video a few years ago where someone had put a small video camera on top of a car and recorded a cupola view down the top of a moving freight. Was quite realistic and brought back fond old memories of SP caboose rides....DaveB 

Expense

Of course I didn't mention expense or maintenance as these are necessary for any layout of any size. My previous boss used to tell people to build what they could afford to finish. You do have a point George but that was a segway to another example that Dave points out. All parts of the layout will need to be accessed at one time or another including hidden trackage in tunnels, staging yards, or a helix. 

What I am considering is how to effectively lengthen the mainline by making normally hidden track visible by other means. Video cameras or train cams (onboard?) may have more appeal if we think outside the box - or rather in the box in this case. I've seen examples of layouts that have branches inside a helix and the operator would have to duck under the bench work to see the train.  While there one would be totally isolated from the real world and switch the branch with restriction of the space - a true inglenook! 

In the future you may be able to be the engineer of the pokey local passenger train from port to summit (apology to JA for stealing the names) from your cell phone on lunch break 3,500 miles from my layout. (Which isn't hard for most considering where I live.) 

 Disclosure - All  my engines are battery powered so, while DCC, they will run out of fuel but don't stall on points, frogs, or dirty track. They will, however, continue to move even if on the ties or past the end of the line. Momentum adds to the excitement! 

Thoughts on wide sweeping

Thoughts on wide sweeping vistas from my experience. I have had the wonderful experience that comes with a club layout. In the last few weeks we removed a great many structures freight cars figures etc. so we could put ladders on the layout surface to rewire florescent lights. There are also areas that are more than 30 inches from the edge of the layout. I have been involved with this layout for a number of years and can say that it is unlikely that I will ever build anything further away from the layout edge than 30 inches. Anything more than that is likely to be very problematic to work on or build. There is one exception to this and that will be an engine terminal. A 130 foot turntable in HO scale inside a 42 inch radius turn back curve at the end of a peninsula will have some areas that are further away than what is ideal. That is the only exception I am willing to make with regard to that rule. I may still find a better solution.

Our club layout has several areas that are exceptionally deep and needed a top side creeper to work on. After experiencing the aggravation associated with this type of thing I can say it is not worth it to me.

One way to have deep scenes and still reach them is to have two sections back to back, in effect a 50 inch deep section with an aisle on each side. Then you still have deep scenes but they are still accessable.

Cab mounted camera ...

At some point you will cross the line into virtual modeling.  If you are operating your train by watching a video feed on a monitor, you would no longer need the physical train or scenery and could just do it all virtually.  Lots of advantages ... certainly cheaper and more portable ... I'd wager it is easier to change as well.

Virtual modeling and deep scenes

Rob - you just answered your own question! A deep scene with an access isle in between would be ideal. In fact, a drop leaf river or lake within a canyon could serve the same purpose if you didn't want to walk on the layout. 

John - yes, some of the virtual layout design tools are becoming extremely realistic and our computers or handheld devices will likely become more powerful to run complicated graphics and animation. I'm admittedly still a hands on builder and would chose model building, trackwork, and scenery as first choices of favorite activities in the hobby.  Viewing the layout from a cab, even line-side, remotely would be limited imho to traversing the line and not include much switching - if any. 

A layout that might be automated, as Michael Rose proposes, would be fun to railfan and more so from a cab pov. If I could engineer a train through his fantastic layout alongside others it would be an experience worth paying for. The idea that a layout could be built without access aisles, at least not visible ones, would allow a much longer row than currently possible. Forget 30" maximum! An N scale right of way might only be 12" deep with photo-realistic backdrops on both sides. An access isle would be just that and need only be 20"-24" adjacent to 2-4 sceniced main lines.  

Someone mentioned caboose

Neil, it seems to me an

Neil, it seems to me an access aisle would not be a deep scene but two scenes that are not deep. My point was an aisle on each side of 2 scenes would still allow for 30 inches of reach and generate a 60 inch deep scene.

Camera

It will actually require a LOT of work to accomplish.  Put a camera on a a car and take a look. 

It will require all sides of everything to be detailed. 

We are used to looking down at a layout so we don't look "up".  A camera will "look up" since everything above the horizon will be visible.  While the ceiling or unpainted floor joists are invisible to a human operator looking down at the railroad, they will fill half the screen on a engine mounted camera.

Track will have to be upgraded tremendously.  The average switch looks pretty bad close up.

I think you will have to choose your perspective, do you want to detail and plan it for the viewing angle of the human operator or the viewing angle of the on-board camera. 

POV

I've posted this before but a cab view does require a lot of forethought if you want an experience that immerses you in the environment. The details, such as switches and points, are not as visible as you might think unless the camera is mounted in the headlight (aka Bruce Kingsley). Still these ideas would provide a way to extend our "visible layout" if some compromises are acceptable. 

Agreed that finishing a staging are would be some work - especially after the fact!

@ Dave1905

Yes, Dave, it will take a lot of work.  I have a live video camera car that was run on my previous layout and learned much about what is visible.  You can really see how different modelers build their layouts by watching the cab view videos posted on YouTube.  The challenge is to always improve, and with only a 31 foot along-the-wall layout and the rest of my life to build it, I accept that challenge.

@ Neil, when I saw your earlier post about the camera you installed I ordered a couple of them to use on the new layout.  One challenge has always been the view going around curves.  The camera eye itself on that type of camera is small enough that it can be made to swivel with the front truck and do a much better job of keeping the track near the center of the field of view.  

Like Professor Klyzlr says, "Aim to Improve"

Dave

Brilliant

Dave:

Swiveling the camera with the truck is a great idea. I had thought of a servo in the cab run via a DCC address to see forward or back but haven't tried squeezing it in the cab. Another good reason for hiding curves in the hidden sections!

My Polaroid Cube also shows beyond the edge of the world. Not bad really. The fascia color is the same base color of my scenery so that helps. I'm enthused enough to try a mockup of this concept. If it is really dramatic then my staging is going to get a facelift.