Irv,   It's possible to print

Irv,

It's possible to print out the track plan full size, but I've never done it. Most model railroaders will be able to translate directly from a CAD drawing to the real world without having to "tweak" things a little. And that's not a bad thing. Usually when you're looking at things full size changes become apparent that make the finished scene better.

As far as making a device to measure curve radius get a yardstick from a local hardware store or home improvement center, drill holes every inch that represents your radius + 1" (so, for a 17" radius curve drill a hole at 18") large enough to hold a pencil. Then drill a smaller hole (for a nail or pin) in the 1" mark. Locate the approximate arc of the curve by swinging the yardstick until you find the spot where it works, pin the 1" end in place with a small brad or nail (or even a push pin), place the pencil in the hole for the radius, and draw your centerline.

A lot easier, faster, and cheaper than messing with a fancy program.

Marty

Track Plan Templates

First of all, I know how to make a compass out of yardstick. The problem is not everyone does. And sometimes they don't even know where to get a yardstick. But if you have a Micromark catalogue handy you can find a kind of tape measure that is set up to do it. They also have devices that you put on a yardstick that lets you do the same thing.

What I was getting at in my original post was bein able to lay the track plan that you end up with in 3rd Planit or any model railroad CAD softare out on top of your benchwork or even on the floor to see how it actually looks before you do anything else. I also think it would be useful to be able to use that trackplan as a template to layout your actual track and roadbed to play with for a while. I know this is already in 3rd Planit but seeing it on your computer screen and actually in your train room are not the same thing. It's sort of like looking at the trackplan of Joe's layout and then watching it on video or in person. You really need to see it in action to really understand how it works and why works.

Maybe I am expecting to much, but I do think anything that makes life easier for the the person designing a layout is better than than just guessing.

Irv

I printed out my track plan

I printed out my track plan in XtrkCad full size and laid it out on the table and everything fit pretty much perfectly.  Its just I dismantled that layout shortly after putting down the track.  Fortunately, I didn't caulk it down because I thought it might be temporary and it ended up being so.

 Useful yes, easier, I don't

Useful yes, easier, I don't think so.

So you're saying that 3rd PlanIt is easier to work through than drilling holes in a stick? 

Sorry, I can't buy that. The learning curve on 3rd Plan It is fairly steep, and it seems that's a lot of time and effort to learn a program just to print out a template that can be laid on the benchwork full size. 

There's certainly a utility to CAD design programs (I use one, but only after I've done plenty of pencil sketching in advance) but there's really easier ways to transfer the track plan to the surface (or lay it out on the floor - my new "layout" is being laid out with empty moving boxes to get a feel for aisle width and deck height. Th benchwork shape is easily laid out full size with cardboard cut to shape.

Much easier than a CAD program, and GREAT exercise!

Marty

I've found that my printer

I've found that my printer isn't accurate enough at paper handling to be able to paste up an accurate full size version of even a small layout. Doing so for the 1100 foot monster in my basement would be a disaster (and defoliate a large portion of a small forest too).

Instead I measure certain key distances from corners and walls. Then I snap a chalk line on the floor (best done with a helper!) to locate benchwork components or edges. I can also have 3rd planit tell me where the centers of the curves are located and the radii of the curves letting me use the trammel method previously discussed (that method needs modification when used with radii larger than 35").

I create my CAD plans with enough 'fudge factor' (slop) so that measuring errors aren't going to be  issues for me.  I too have resorted to piling stuff next to aisles to see how the widths will work and how the heights will seem. Marty has built a lot more layouts than I have!

Once I get benchwork in place I mark track locations either on sheets of plywood for flat areas or the tops of joists for areas where the track will be on spline roadbed. In general though, unless you're doing some really complex trackwork in tight quarters being 1/2" closer or further from the benchwork edge or the wall or backdrop won't matter very much.

Cheers,

Charlie

CAD 1:1 Printing

Charlie, I have found that accurate CAD drawing printed out on 11" x 14" paper then stiched together allows for very accurate placement of subroadbed, roadbed and tracks specially on curves. By doing some cookie cutting of the sheets then tracing edge lines on the roadbed things line up pretty well, specially on modules. See below:

Printing out full size helps me

Charlie:

I too have found that printing the plan out full size helps when laying out lots of trackwork like is found in yard areas. I did the design of my Siskiyou Line before there was much in the way of model railroad track planning tools on computer - and I used Canvas, a general purpose CAD package that's available for the Mac and the PC.

I printed out the Roseburg yard area full sized and pasted the pages down onto the wallboard, then laid the track out on top of the full-sized plan. Canvas has the nice feature that as you print out a drawing that's been tiled to regular paper, you can have it number the pages so you know how to put it all back together.

Here's some photos of me laying out Roseburg yard in this manner. These photos show me just laying out the pages to see how everything will fit. Later I came back and glued down all the pages with a liberal application of rubber cement, and I used a quart jar as a "rolling pin" to smooth out the sheets as I went along.

Track Plan Templates

OK, Marty. I may be abit lazy but I just want to get to something that works.

I've drilled holes in a yardstick before and I do know it works. Where one can get in trouble with that is that you need to have a solid point to use as the center. If that point doesn't exist in the layout, you can lay it out on the floor or on a piece of paper large enough to transfer to the layout. That was what I was talking about when I said it would be nice to get the 3rd Planit design onto a template that could be laid directly on the benchwork.

I had a lumber based layout last time and it got kind of difficult to work with on my own. That layout was workable but it wasn't used for the last 21 years primarily because it wasn't soemthing I enjoyed doing. That one one came down last May and now I am trying to replace with with something different using the Woodland Scenics Mod-U-Rail system. Its light enough to be easily moved and carried to all sort of places (especially outside). THese things are really and when someone isn't exactly Superman they make great things to deal with.

I've put my benchwork up here for all to see but I have yet to develop a trackplan and that is what I intend to use 3rd Planit for. I might not need if I had your experience, but, since I don't, this software should give me a chance to brainstorm and see what works and what doesn't. And remember, too, I am a solo modeler (not by choice) so I have to figure out certain things others have learned from other model railroaders. That's one of the reasons why I find on line sites and magazines like this one so attractive. Where else could I have a cnversatioin with folks like you and Joe?

Irv

full size printing

I use 3rd Planit and printed out a plan for the club when we recently changed our minds about the track plan( for the millionth time it seemed). Having a full size version very quickly stopped some of the wish list ideas from getting in the way of reality.

Members couls see exactly what we were planning and building it was simple as we just cut to plan.

It even allowed for some mock running to see if the plan flowed as  a railroad should.

My 2 cents worth guys.

Paul

templates

I draw with AutoCAD. For my new Westport I needed a throat with a few turnouts. I made the template for the turnouts and printed on many sheets.

To get no kinks I made in another color  a few long lines. With a long staff I could adjust the different sheets.

Then I could glue the ties.

Wolfgang

CAD use

I have a full-featured architectural/engineering CAD program, that I occasionally use for whatever home project, to see what fits where and to do exact dimensions for odd shapes.

I have started benchwork modules in 4 and 5 foot lengths, with diagonals and end corners at 30° and 45° angles.  The CAD program give me very accurate (too accurate) measurements of the odd pieces.  I also can identify track centers in X and Y directions from a known corner, and then use my trusty cardboard quarter-circle templates, or 1x2 trammel, to rough in track centerlines

I had not thought it reasonable to plot out a lot of sheets of paper as some of you show.  I have in the past gone to KinkO's or some other copy/printing store to have them print out my plot file on 36 x 24 paper.  If they have a plotter with roll paper, you may be able to plot your whole run, from Chicago to Denver, or Colton to Brooklyn, or....

This may be an option for you.  They typically speak "Autocad" around here in So. Calif., but most CAD programs can save to a .DXF or some sort of .plot file that's compatible with the store's software.  Now, some can do .PDF or .GIF, or other formats.

Joe, Is Your Full Sized Paper Template Glued/Sealed Permanently?

 Joe,

Oops, I just started another thread on the bench work forum. I asked there, if when you glued your full sized templates down, if you intend to keep them permanently on the layout.  I'd like to do this but was concerned about the future stability of the cork over plywood roadbed with moisture intrusion, etc. Is it possible to glue my 17'X 3' strips of blueprint  paper templates to the ply, seal it with verathane over the top of the paper (or scenic base paint) or is it always better/safer to trace with a pommel wheel and/or magic marker and remove the paper?

This'll be a cookie cutter(ed) layout if that matters. The yard would have the paper glued over sheet cork...

I also asked people who've done this to report how long their layouts have been successfully operating with the paper "buried" under track, ballast, scenery.

Sorry to repeat the questions in two separate threads. I had seen this thread via a google search a few months back but couldn't remember where I'd seen it until tonight when I'd subscribed and had already posted. If a moderator feels the other thread I started needs to be removed, I understand...

 Thanks VERY much!

Glued 'em down

CG:

Glued the full sized templates down with white glue. The glued the track down with gray latex caulk right over the top. Finally ballasted the track and glued the ballast down with white glue.

Once I'm done, everything has been so permeated with white glue it's not going anywhere unless I was to soak it with water for hours and hours (at which point, about all you can do is rip it out and replace it - which is generally the only reason to ever do this, unless the basement gets flooded or something).

In short, 18 years later, the trackwork's still going strong with no worries.

Thanks Joe. Sheet Cork follow up?

 Hi Joe, Thanks! You're up late too!

That's great. Didn't realize it had been 18 years!  Last follow up question I can think of...

Do you see any problem doing this over a large sheet corked yard area?  If I don't cut away the excess paper,

alongside the roadbed itself, do you anticipate any problems painting over the paper, using plaster and adding

foam ground cover?

I appreciated your really quick response as I'm about to start track laying in the new year.  I love your videos.

I've got them all sitting right here.

Thanks again! 

Just glue 'em down and trim 'em later

CG:

I just glued 'em down with little concern for a tight trim at first. Eventually, when I get to doing scenery, I might trim up the edges somewhat.

Below is an old and not-so-great digital photo of the Coos Bay area. Notice the paper template flaps all over back behind the train and locos.

I eventually cut those flaps off with a sharp xacto knife. Anything that remains I paint right over it with my scenery paint, zip texture it, and you'll never remember it was even there.

Here's the photo:

Excellent! Thanks.

 Excellent. Thanks so much. I'd spoken with some club members about wanting to do this after showing them the full sized layout templates atop the bench work and they all thought it wasn't a good idea. None of them had ever seen it done and they had me freaked out. It seemed likely to me that if everything was sealed from moisture that it should work ok. Glad to see evidence that it can and does. 18 years has me convinced! If you do any more zip texturing and scenicing in the near future over the paper, please consider posting more pics?  I plan on starting this part of the process sometime in January.  Nice to know I'm not the only night owl tonight

Hope you had a great Holiday Season and Best Wishes for a Happy New Year.

Wolfgang...Ihalmos

 Wolfgang, did you leave yours glued down as well, similar to Joe's work? If so, I'd be interested in hearing if you did anything different. I enjoyed your web site very much! Really nice harbor work!

Ihalmos, I "think" you didn't leave your paper under your road bed, correct? Beautiful track laying and space!

Joe, one of the club guys emailed me back. After seeing your videos and forum and watching you do some taping in Anaheim,thought if it worked for you it'd work for me!

  It seems that  the majority of M.R.ers (based on conversations with  friends and many other forum threads) don't know or feel that this is "safe" to do and it might make an interesting photo/technique article for the new e-magazine. (?)

 It seems like such an obvious/handy/time and error saving path that maybe the word needs to be "gotten out there" more? In this age of computer track planning software (although mine was pencil and paper drawn) it just seems like a technique that should be as commonly known as zip texturing, foam based layouts, etc.

If other folks here have done this and have had their scenery and running trains in place for years, please spread the word?

It's intimidating for beginners (or near beginners like me) to move on to flex track laying-(fearing lost $ from wastage) from their former snap track days and leaving the templates in place really helps to get us "out of the gate!"  Pommel wheels, constantly lifting the template to be sure the marker pen is truly bleeding throughetc. are time consuming and labor intensive. If the template is already there and can be used, why not?

I'll try a sample/experimental piece of ply and the blueprint paper just to be sure that particular paper soaks up the glue properly. I'm still 2-3 weeks from track laying so have some time to be assured.

Thanks again Joe.

printing full sized

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the "Templot" program for model railway track.

http://www.templot.com/martweb/templot.htm

Its sole purpose is to create full-sized prints of track layouts to a high level of accuracy, and has many features to aid in the alignment of the multi-sheet constructs.

.pdf, then off to Kinkos

Using pdf995* or something similar, any track planning CAD program should be able to output 1:1 .pdf pages of large size. Most FedEx Kinkos (now being renamed FedEx Office) have a roll printer that can work with 36" wide (or larger) by whatever length. Using .pdf files means it's printable everywhere and the print shop won't need the CAD application. Works great.

Byron
Model RR Blog

* Disclaimer -- pdf995 works fine for me with 3rd PlanIt, XP, and a fast PC. It may not work for everyone or with every CAD application and I'm not guaranteeing that it will.

You are correct!

I Capt. Grimek wrote:halmos, I "think" you didn't leave your paper under your road bed, correct? Beautiful track laying and space!

Thanks for your kind words.

You are quite right, actually I draw the track plan with ACAD including CV turnouts and roadbed then print them 1:1 on paper. This is followed up by cutting and taping 8.5" x 14" paper sheets together and laying them out onto the module.

Once this is done I cut out the plan at the roadbed lines (curves and turnouts only) and trace it onto the module with a Sharpie. Then comes laying of the roadbed (.20" cork...used to be 1/4" but it's probably made in China to metric dimensions 5mm). I glue the roadbed to the plywood subroadbed with carpenter's glue, tack with push pins and let dry. Once dry I paint the roadbed before installing the CV tie strips. After ample drying time (next day) I now recut the 1:1 paper template on the center line of the track, tack it to the roadbed and trace the line with a sharpie again (curves and turnouts only).

Once all the center lines are drawn on the roadbed, I install the CV tie strips and turnouts strips with carpenter's glue. Glue you ask?...Yes Carpenter's Glue!...Once dry the tie strips adhere quite nicely to the cork because of their design.

Next comes judicious placing of PC Board tie strips followed by ME track laying and Fast Tracks jig made points and frogs! Rail is attached using the Central Valley recommended Barge Cement and MEK mixture. (1 part Barge Cement to 2 parts MEK).

At this point each piece of track receives a 22 gage/guage wire soldered to it for electrical continuity. Then on to painting and ballasting!

At this stage everything is solid and very stable. It has served us well for over 7 years!

Hope this helps!

 Thanks Les. (Sorry I

Thanks Les. (Sorry I miss-typed your first initial in the previous post...)

Great photos and I appreciate the detailed descriptions. You deserve the accolades!

Anyone else have pics of trackwork with templates left/glued underneath? It would be great to see how plaster,

paint and other scenicing materials look as they're lst being applied over the paper.

I started another thread on Model Railroader's forum just to let the folks I'd asked there,  previously that Joe did this with his yards. That resulted in people coming out of the woodwork to say they've done this (one for two decades) when previous post/queries fell flat! (I guess the folks who've done this didn't see those earlier threads..)  It's encouraging to know I can do this without problems arising later. I'd encountered some naysaying but not from anyone who'd tried it. 

I have my entire layout's full size templates laid out on the bench tops ready to proceed! This gandy dancer is giddy with anticipation!

Feldman 718, (the O.P.)  I grew up in N. Jersey/ N.Y.C. area and am looking forward to seeing progress on your layout.Glad you started this thread and hope the responses I've gotten are helpful to you too. Are you going to give this glued down patterns method a try?

Nicely done

Nice presentation, Les! Great results! I sure do wish Central Valley products were available in N.

When I put the pattern down on my mini layout I used pattern paper and tracked it onto the plywood. This was a pain in the butt although results were good. I like Joe's method, glue it all down, for my yard and I like Les way of doing things where I will be using roadbed.

I wish XtrakCAD had an option to print protype tie spacing on the 1:1 printout so I could use it to lay out ties for my "non-turnout" track. Sure would make things easier.. turnout templates are available but not so much for my "regular" track.

Chris

Track templates

< Feldman 718, (the O.P.)  I grew up in N. Jersey/ N.Y.C. area and am looking forward to seeing progress on your layout.Glad you started this thread and hope the responses I've gotten are helpful to you too. Are you going to give this glued down patterns method a try?>

I am using a method that has been recomended to me but I have modified it a bit.

You see what I am building uses the Woodland Scenics Mod-U-Rail system as it basic building block. that makes building benchwork quick and easy since it is basically built up of extruded foam pieces. I am going to post some update photos when can. I haven't made much progress lately because I have been distracted by family requirements that use up lots of time and has also reduce my model railorading budget to ZERO. (I have a son that just got engaged.)

Still I can do things that don't cost money such draw a track plan (it's still in my head) and finish the existing layout sections to the point of being able to run trains even if the track isn't in it's final configuration.

Irv

Les, excellent photo series ...

Les:

That's a great photo series and some darn nice looking track when you're all done.

I have to admit, I'm partial to the CV tie strips for making some dandy looking track!