IronBeltKen

Hello all, decided I'd start a new "chapter" instead of appending to the original blog which was getting a bit tiresome.  I'm in the middle of rebuilding my own rendition of the B&O's CL&W [Cleveland, Lorain and Wheeling] subdivision in the Cleveland area. 

The original layout was 'E' shaped, with duckunders at the East ends of both interior aisles.  I've eliminated the North and South peninsulas; the center peninsula, which holds the steel mill, has been left intact but rotated 180 degrees to accommodate the new trackplan.  I haven't started building the new benchwork yet because there was some prep work I wanted to finish while I had the open space.

One more thing I wanted to do, was take what I had drawn up loosely and it put it on XtrkCAD.  This would tell me whether or not certain track arrangements would actually fit in their allotted spaces, and if any of the curves would be unacceptably sharp.  Fortunately I was able to create a version that didn't sacrifice any of my 'druthers'.  However, some realignments were necessary so the current plan does not totally match the original. 

Probably the most noticeable change is that I'm creating a second, lower deck exclusively for the staging yard - instead of having it fill the rearmost spaces of the top level.  This ensures that (1) the staging tracks will be easier to reach [near the front edge], and (2) it helps the urban areas of the layout look less like a spaghetti bowl. The lower level will be 15" down from the main level, with single-track helixes in the northwest and southeast corners.

Here are some shrunken-down diagram images.  Clicking anywhere on them will open up corresponding PDF's that you can zoom in on to see what the 'fine print' says.

 

 

 

IBKen

Reply 0
bear creek

Hi Road Slug, I have a few

Hi Road Slug,

I have a few questions about your plan...

1) How much lower than the layout proper will staging be?  If it's just a little lower then you'll have a major access problem to trains on the staging tracks. If it's signifcantly lower you'll need helixes to move from the main track to staging and vice versa.  I would definitely recomment building the staging ladders/throats on something that can taken to the workbench for repairs or that you can remove the layout about these areas for access. Especially the staging ladder not directly adjacent to the aisle.

2) So you have the major industry complex on the center peninsula, but what appears to be the interchange yard/area between that industry complex and the main trck seems rather undersized for the numer and lenght of tracks in the actual industry.  Or will the industry only accpeting and delivering a few cars with each move?

3) It sure looks like getting into that standup freezer is going to be a problem with having the center peninsula in front of it.  Trying to find the pork shoulder or rump roast in the back of the bottom shelf ought to be quite a challenge.  What is the purpose of the track behind the freezer?  If it could be taken out then it would appear (assuming you've made a scale drawing) that access would be greatly improved> ..

4) What if the main track in the upper 'peninsula' is move to the rear?  Would that let the staging ladder underneath be more accessible?  Also, you've got two ladders directly over each other. Are you planning on using under-the-track switch controls?  Is there enough space for them?

5) The interchange between the big industry complex and the main is 'aimed' away from the main yard.  What will operations look like on this interchange? Where will trains come from and go to?

FWIW

Charlie

Superintendent of nearly everything  ayco_hdr.jpg 

Reply 0
IronBeltKen

Probably more changes coming down the pike

Tom - thanx for the kind words, glad to hear the same concept is working for you.

Charlie - good questions, I'll attempt to answer them each in turn.
 

Q1) How much lower than the layout proper will staging be?  If it's just a little lower then you'll have a major access problem to trains on the staging tracks. If it's signifcantly lower you'll need helixes to move from the main track to staging and vice versa.  I would definitely recomment building the staging ladders/throats on something that can taken to the workbench for repairs or that you can remove the layout about these areas for access. Especially the staging ladder not directly adjacent to the aisle.

A1) I plan on having a 15-inch separation between the two levels, with helices in the northwest and southeast corners.  About the staging ladders, I'll admit I hadn't thought about the "maintenance access" issue; perhaps I could put them on removable modules.

Q2) So you have the major industry complex on the center peninsula, but what appears to be the interchange yard/area between that industry complex and the main trck seems rather undersized for the numer and lenght of tracks in the actual industry.  Or will the industry only accpeting and delivering a few cars with each move?

A2) That so-called "interchange" you're referring to actually does more than just receive trains at the steel mill; it's a runaround track for the peddler freight, so it can spot/pickup cars on the spur with the facing-point turnout.  Non-coal steel mill trains will be assembled/dissected on the outer track of the blob in blocks of 5-7 cars at a time.  Coal cars will bypass the yard, going directly to their own designated track which is long enough to accommodate an entire train.  [WOW - I just realized, I need to put a crossover there so I won't have the single-track bottleneck fouling the main! Back to the XtrkCAD...] The plan has been tweaked to extend the inner blob track, so it can function as the main line while mill trains are being processed on the outer track.

Q3) It sure looks like getting into that standup freezer is going to be a problem with having the center peninsula in front of it.  Trying to find the pork shoulder or rump roast in the back of the bottom shelf ought to be quite a challenge.  What is the purpose of the track behind the freezer?  If it could be taken out then it would appear (assuming you've made a scale drawing) that access would be greatly improved> ..

A3) We don't store large cuts of meat in the freezer, only packaged frozen foods that won't fit in our kitchen freezer when it's all filled-up.  So we don't need to be able to open the door all the way out.  The track behind the freezer represents an interchange with Pennsy/Conrail (depending on which era I happen to be running at the time), I extended it behind there so it could store 4-5 cars rather than only 1 or 2.  It is the last place the peddler freight stops at before returning to the yard.  Then again, I might reposition the spur to be fully back against the wall and parallel with it -- that would gain me ~2 linear feet and make the protrusion of the freezer unnecessary. 

Q4) What if the main track in the upper 'peninsula' is move to the rear?  Would that let the staging ladder underneath be more accessible?  Also, you've got two ladders directly over each other. Are you planning on using under-the-track switch controls?  Is there enough space for them?

A4) I wanted the main line track to be close to the front so the operators can have immedite access to their trains; plus, in the earlier version of this plan, the back area was where I had my staging tracks located.  [ Click here to see the original single-level vesrion of this plan.]  Regarding switch mechanisms, the 15" separation ought to provide plenty of space for Tortoises.

Q5) The interchange between the big industry complex and the main is 'aimed' away from the main yard.  What will operations look like on this interchange? Where will trains come from and go to?

A5) Truth be told, I don't like that arrangement either.  But the steel mill peninsula is already built up; I had to flip it 180 degrees so the entry tracks would be closer to the main line.  And only the north wall has enough length to accommodate the main yard.  So, most steel mill trains will probably go directly to the mill yard, with an occasional 'turn' between the mill yard and the main yard.  Pointing the mill access tracks in the opposite direction would require me to completely rebuild the east end of the mill.

IBKen

Reply 0
Dave K skiloff

Its a shame

Its a shame I wasn't coming to Baltimore after you've got all that work done.   That would have been an interesting first op session for me.

Dave
Playing around in HO and N scale since 1976

Reply 0
IronBeltKen

There'll be others...

I agree Dave, I wish the timing had been different too.  But who knows, maybe there'll be another convention here [or in DC, which is almost as close]..? 

IBKen

Reply 0
IronBeltKen

Now there are TWO

...tracks, where before there was only one where the twin blob tracks re-joined.  I extended the inner track and put in a crossover.  Now I have the entire outer track available to assemble trains for the steel mill, without fouling the main.

 

 

IBKen

Reply 0
Artarms

XtrkCAD

Nice drawings - I haven't given XtrkCAD enough credit - or is it the operator?

Reply 0
IronBeltKen

80% XtrkCAD, 20% Photoshop

Art - XtrkCAD has a feature labeled "Print to Bitmap" that produces, well,...a bitmap image, which includes the track, vertical and horizontal scales, and the grid lines.  Then I take that image and use a graphical editing tool (a Photoshop wannabe) on it.  I add text, lines, rectangles and other basic shapes to depict the various space-limiting elements and fill-in the open floor areas.

Here is an unmodified XtrkCAD image:

IBKen

Reply 0
bear creek

An idea for the lower peninsula?

At the expense of some non-walkaround design, the following solves the problem of the steel mill headed the wrong way...

FWIW

Charlie

Superintendent of nearly everything  ayco_hdr.jpg 

Reply 0
Benny

I've been able to create all

I've been able to create all of those sorts of graphic images in xtrakcad without using a second program - but then, my graphics training was MSpowerpoint!  The graphics in that program basically take obejcts and the grouping function to make larger images - and you use edit points to change the shape of an irregular blog.  Xtrakcad graphics work the same way - draw a sold irregular shape, then edit the borders...

You can also add lines that are of greater thickness to a layer you can title "benchwork" so you can plan out your internal structure using dimensional lumber.

The program has a lot of potential!

--------------------------------------------------------

Benny's Index or Somewhere Chasing Rabbits

Reply 0
Benny

I've been able to create all

I've been able to create all of those sorts of graphic images in xtrakcad without using a second program - but then, my graphics training was MSpowerpoint!  The graphics in that program basically take obejcts and the grouping function to make larger images - and you use edit points to change the shape of an irregular blog.  Xtrakcad graphics work the same way - draw a sold irregular shape, then edit the borders...

You can also add lines that are of greater thickness to a layer you can title "benchwork" so you can plan out your internal structure using dimensional lumber.

The program has a lot of potential!

--------------------------------------------------------

Benny's Index or Somewhere Chasing Rabbits

Reply 0
IronBeltKen

A Few Good Ideas

Charlie,

It took a moment for me to figure out what you meant by "losing some walk-around design", until I noticed the main line goes directly to the far side of the south (bottom) peninsula.  My operators and I already will have to interrupt the trackside walk to get around the steel mill peninsula, so it may not be that big of a sacrifice.  And the overpass above the steel mill branch line provides extra topographical/visual interest.

However, I'll need to see exactly how the revised [main] yard trackage would fit into your map.  And I'd want to get feedback from my regular operators on this - since they are the ones who'll have to live with the design.

Thanks for your ideas!

IBKen

Reply 0
IronBeltKen

I'm just lazy I guess...

Benny, I know XtrkCAD can do much more than just the track part - I used it a few years ago to create the steel mill structure footprints shown in the current diagram.  I just don't have the patience to sit down for hours re-training myself to do the same things on XtrkCAD that I can already "do in my sleep" with my graphical editor.

But yes, I agree XtrkCAD gives you quite a lot of functionality for the price.

IBKen

Reply 0
KnuT

S-curves

Ken,

Nice plan. But there seems to be a couple of s-curves on both tracks leading into the yard on the left side.

The main line should be easy to fix, you need some straight track between the curves, but I think you should take a closer look at the track leading into the yard. Maybe you could straighten the track a bit?

Just my thoughts....

Reply 0
IronBeltKen

Good eye, Knut!

... are you referring to this (yellow-highlighted area):

That was a source of endless frustration for me.  Something I can't do with XtrkCAD is trim of the ends of stock turnouts, which I've frequently done with actual trackwork.  That forces me to come up with convoluted combinations like what you see here, to make everything fit together properly.  Maybe I can eliminate the 'dummy' Pennsy/Conrail crossing and move the curved turnout further to the left...[?]

 

IBKen

Reply 0
bear creek

And now for something completely different....

And now for something completely different, a walk-around, point to point design for Ken's space.

Advantages:

  • Walk around design
  • No helix
  • 103' mainline
  • Sincerity

Drawbacks:

  • No continuous connection through staging
  • Gotta move the steel mill complex
  • Staging under yard has minimal overhead - keep all turnouts along the aisle
  • 26" min radius
  • Some aisles get a bit narrow

Whatever ...

And now back to Issue 8 which is already in progress...

Charlie

Superintendent of nearly everything  ayco_hdr.jpg 

Reply 0
ChrisNH

Turnouts

Quote:

.  Something I can't do with XtrkCAD is trim of the ends of stock turnouts

Have you tried the Yahoo group to see if someone posted a modified template? Some are up with the ends trimmed to the minimum. You could probably also do it by modifying the library. I have never tried that.

I have been using the fast tracks turnout library and those are trimmed pretty tight. Perhaps you could use those as a stand in for a commercial turnout in some spots. The NMRA library is similar. You would have to be comfortable that you could make the commercial turnout fit.

Chris

“If you carry your childhood with you, you never become older.”           My modest progress Blog

Reply 0
KnuT

... are you referring to this

Quote:

... are you referring to this (yellow-highlighted area):

Yes, sir.

I am using 3rdPlanIt and trim the turouts all the time. But I think you might be able to do this as you lay track. Maybe you just can lay them out or lay out 1:1 copies of the turnouts and test fit them.

But even the best laid plans often needs to be changed. That is my experience too.

Reply 0
BlueHillsCPR

Trimming Turnouts

Quote:

That was a source of endless frustration for me.  Something I can't do with XtrkCAD is trim of the ends of stock turnouts, which I've frequently done with actual trackwork.

Ken,

Trimming stock turnouts in XTrkCAD is pretty easy.

Use the "Split a track" tool, (ctrl+shift+S) and hold the shift key then click the turnout section that you wish to trim.  The section of the turnout beyond the trim point will become an editable piece of straight or curved track depending on whether you are trimming the diverging or through track.

You can also watch a demo of this process in the demos under the help menu in XTrkCAD.

Reply 0
IronBeltKen

Knut - I'm not surprised that

Knut - I'm not surprised that 3Dplanit lets you chop turnouts, it's a much more powerful tool than XtrkCAD [and it better be, for the price!]

Charlie - I hadn't really thought about that.  I figured somebody had probably come up with workaround turnout templates somewhere.  I'll check into that later, I'm actually still re-learning much of the base-level XtrkCAD stuff.

Quote:

[Quoting Kevin:] Trimming stock turnouts in XTrkCAD is pretty easy.

Use the " class="bbc_img" rel="lightbox[1330964609]">

I'll try that when I get home from work Kevin.  But if it's the same thing that's used for cutting flex track, I've never been able to get that feature to work on any track section dragged from the library.  WOW...I tried it and sure enough it WORKS*!  [*As long as I do the keystrokes, clicking the 'cut' button by itself does nothing.]  Guess it's never to late for an old dawg to learn new tricks.  Kevin, I owe you a cold one of your favorite ale.

 

IBKen

Reply 0
BlueHillsCPR

Trimming Turnouts

I'm glad it works for you Ken.

Any Pilsner will do in a pinch but since you're buying I'll have a Lemon Hart & Ginger.

The shift key is commonly used as a modifier key in CAD applications.

Reply 0
IronBeltKen

I THINK I understand...most of it anyway

Tom - Are you suggesting I run a double track spur behind the freezer and use that for stub-ended staging, and reserve the extra level for more 'fun' uses (extra mainline, more lineside industries, etc.)?  That would be nice, but I don't appear to have enough length along that back wall.  I need at least 15ft of track [combined] to assemble a train long enough for my liking, but all I can see is 12ft - 7' on one track, 5' on the other.

I'm not sure about the "4 inches" thing you're referring to; could that possibly be something you saw on one of Charlie's adaptations?  The so-called 'visible' part of the layout doesn't have any intentional grades on it, except for the helixes.  BTW - I didn't attempt to show the helix trackage on either diagram (top or bottom level), only the entry and exit points.

IBKen

Reply 0
IronBeltKen

Thanks, but I'm going to pass on that...

Tom - I see your idea is based on Charlie's adaptation.  I'm going to stick with my 'refined' original (the one without the Pennsy interchange).  That's a cool idea for a second yard on a higher deck; only problem I see with it is, it will block the air flow to- and from my window-mounted AC/heat pump.  I need to keep that area of 20" vertical space wide open.

IBKen

Reply 0
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